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post #31 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 07:51 AM
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Okay gotcha. Yeah I thought I heard that the dual 15 was going to be around 1k. Maybe the single 15 would be an option but I'm sure the hsu would be a better sub.

It looks like reaction audio has Therese subs tuned for some serious chest pounding mid bass. I'd love to hear the dual 15

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post #32 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

Okay gotcha. Yeah I thought I heard that the dual 15 was going to be around 1k. Maybe the single 15 would be an option but I'm sure the hsu would be a better sub.

It looks like reaction audio has Therese subs tuned for some serious chest pounding mid bass. I'd love to hear the dual 15

Both of their subs have dual drivers. The second price is for two subs.
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post #33 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

What I find comical, is that no matter how many times Shady is proven wrong about his relentless obsession with bashing PSA, he still spouts the same unsubstantiated opinions which are proven wrong time and again with factual data.
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post


Shady says long term compression is horrible since the PSA is such a crappy design:

"The long term output compression testing shows that the XV-15 maintains good composure up to a 110dB sweep level"

Look at the actual data. The long term output of the XV15 is nowhere near its burst output. That disparity is virtually unmatched by any other subwoofer on data-bass.com, I know of only one exception. This is not a desirable quality. If you want to see something really sad, look at how the XV15's long term output compares with the sealed mode VTF15h's long term output. It shouldn't be anywhere near that close. How is the sealed VTF15h beating a higher powered, ported 15"? Now compare it to the long term output of the two ports open VTF15h. In that mode the VTF15h is nearly twice as powerful through big swaths of the bass range. Yet, PSA claims that the XV15 is 1.2 times more powerful than the VTF15h!? The fact is you will need two Power X drivers just to keep up with the cheapo VTF15h driver for any bass lasting longer than a blip, and an XS30 will not even have the advantage of ports.
I'm trying to figure out here, bear123, just how is it that ShadyJ is mistaken in his analysis of Ricci's data? If in your opinion this is an irrelevant consideration, then could you explain why this is? Resorting to saing he's got an agenda or categorically saying he's repeatedly been proven wrong doesn't promote or advance a discussion of the particular issue that he raised above.

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post #34 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post


I'm trying to figure out here, bear123, just how is it that ShadyJ is mistaken in his analysis of Ricci's data? If in your opinion this is an irrelevant consideration, then could you explain why this is? Resorting to saing he's got an agenda or categorically saying he's repeatedly been proven wrong doesn't promote or advance a discussion of the particular issue that he raised above.


Basically, he consistently bashes the XV15's performance and quality without having seen or heard it, and accuses them of fabricating performance data.  Third party testers go on record stating that the measured performance closely matches PSA'a measurements, and third party measurements and test data reveal that the sub performs admirably well for an under $800 sub.  It has much higher CEA2010 measured output than most ID subs under $800.  Is its performance as linear as SVS.  Nope.  It is a different design.  Does the SVS have much more linear output?  Yes.  Does the fact that it has much lower output than the PSA mean it is a bad sub and should be nitpicked and bashed to death?  No. 

 

I am not saying it is an irrelevant consideration.  What I am saying is that he looks at one of the XV15's less admirable qualities and uses as a basis to bash it as a total piece of crap sub, and that is just not the case.  All subs, especially in the under $800 price range, make quality sacrifices of some sort.  SVS sacrifices output to maintain perfect linearity.  PSA sacrifices some linearity to achieve maximum output.  Hsu strikes a better balance between the two but does not have as good of a warranty.  They are all good subs, and everyone should evaluate them and pick the one that will work best for them.  I chose an SVS despite its lower output because I felt I did not need the output.  Had I been concerned with max output I likely would have chosen the XV15, as many others have.  I have yet to see any XV15 owner or reviewer complain about its performance or quality, and there are a lot of them out there.  The only one who incessantly bashes the sub is Shady, who has not heard or seen one.  Do you see anyone bashing HSU subs on a daily basis in every forum they post in due to their stamped baskets, short warranty and low powered amps? No, these are the quality concessions that HSU chose to keep their subs at the desired price point.

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post #35 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 10:13 AM
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Both of their subs have dual drivers. The second price is for two subs.

Okay makes sense now. I was wondering why anyone would pay that much more just for another driver.

That might be worth a look unless the op has high expectations under 20 hz.

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post #36 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Look at the actual data. The long term output of the XV15 is nowhere near its burst output. That disparity is virtually unmatched by any other subwoofer on data-bass.com, I know of only one exception. This is not a desirable quality. If you want to see something really sad, look at how the XV15's long term output compares with the sealed mode VTF15h's long term output. It shouldn't be anywhere near that close. How is the sealed VTF15h beating a higher powered, ported 15"? Now compare it to the long term output of the two ports open VTF15h. In that mode the VTF15h is nearly twice as powerful through big swaths of the bass range. Yet, PSA claims that the XV15 is 1.2 times more powerful than the VTF15h!? The fact is you will need two Power X drivers just to keep up with the cheapo VTF15h driver for any bass lasting longer than a blip, and an XS30 will not even have the advantage of ports.

Why are you claiming that the VTF-15H is superior just by comparing long term outputs in sealed mode? Heck even directly from the PSA site you can see that the XS30 has better long term compression measurements over the XV15.

XS30



XV15



Also in regards to the THD, you yourself can compare the THD of the VTF15-H between sealed mode and 1 port and 2 port modes and see that in sealed mode the VTF15 has lower THD. So I think it's safe to say that a XS30 will have lower THD then the XV15. But once again thanks for providing me with some good morning laughs worrying that my XS30 is crap....LOL
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That might be worth a look unless the op has high expectations under 20 hz.

In my opinion, one is missing out on a lot if they don't have high expectations for under 20Hz playback.
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post #38 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 10:24 AM
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I think Shady j's issue is in the XV15 being compared to more expensive subs, a la the VTF15h.

It is a great sub for its price. It does not slay the more expensive offerings. Like all other subs comprises are made for price. Tom V. made some really great choices based on the rave reviews and customer feedback.
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post #39 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

I think Shady j's issue is in the XV15 being compared to more expensive subs, a la the VTF15h.

It is a great sub for its price. It does not slay the more expensive offerings. Like all other subs comprises are made for price. Tom V. made some really great choices based on the rave reviews and customer feedback.

Shadyj's issue is with PSA, not just one particular sub.
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post #40 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 10:53 AM
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The xs30 is being compared to the VTF-15h

ShadyJ', get over you obsession to bash PSA. You come off as a troll in every thread you post in.
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post #41 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 10:55 AM
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Come off as a troll? How about is....


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post #42 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 11:10 AM
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That was a well thought out reply, bear123. I haven't read every post of ShadyJ's, but I don't recall him saying PSA fabricated data. Rather he has raised objections to their particular use of CEA data to support their contention that one of their subs is equivalent to X number of somebody else's. I even recall Tom V. making a post where he cautioned about being selective when looking at data. After all, Ricci has provided a wealth of measurements covering different aspects of performance. Shady's way of looking at the data, which AFAIK is not incorrect, can lead to a different way of evaluating perceived value/performance and lead to different conclusions from what PSA has put forth on their website. In fact one might find that a different brand might be able to say that it takes some multiple of PSA's to equal one of theirs. As an analogy that's not car related, look at the way ball players can be evaluated using Bill James as an example. Moneyball, right?

Most vendors don't shop at the same store and they have their own unique reasons for why they choose the components they do. So, it might be a bit harsh to call a driver cheap not being privy to all the particulars. Cheap connotes all sort of negative perceptions. Perhaps a more diplomatic way of saying it is the (insert vendor) makes various design compromises to achieve certain performance characteristics commensurate with the price point of the final product. OTOH, my wife's uncle H. Is undoubtably a cheap mofo. Pleasant enough to talk to, though.

I like PSA's warranty but I'll also add that it's early in the game to know whether the product lives up to it or whether the company will be sunk by it. Me, I'd have kept the same pricing but with maybe a 2-3 year warranty with extra cost options for an additional year or two. These long amp warranies scare the sh!t out of me.
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post #43 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I like PSA's warranty but I'll also add that it's early in the game to know whether the product lives up to it or whether the company will be sunk by it. Me, I'd have kept the same pricing but with maybe a 2-3 year warranty with extra cost options for an additional year or two. These long amp warranies scare the sh!t out of me.

I'm pretty sure Tom and Jim have been using Bash amps long enough to be comfortable offer 5 year warranties on them. Although PSA is a new company Tom has been using them in his products for a long time.
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post #44 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 11:57 AM
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There are a lot of great points being made in this thread. And Chu Gai brings good points about warranty's and new companies. 

 

I have to say, I wouldn't have purchased a sub from PSA if I didn't know that Tom hadn't already been down the route of starting up an ID company already with SVS.  Buying something with a 5 year warranty from a new company is a gamble since on average 44% of all start ups are out of business within the first 3 years and by the 5th year it's up to 55%. But since Tom has proven he knows how to travel down this road and since he has proven that he knows how to make great subwoofers, I'm not worried. 

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post #45 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 12:20 PM
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74% of l statistics are made up on the spot

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74% of l statistics are made up on the spot

50% of the time it works a 100% of the time!...lol tongue.gif
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post #47 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 01:11 PM
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74% of l statistics are made up on the spot

 

True, that's why I took a minute to look them up; here's the source:D 

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post #48 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 01:30 PM
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I have to say, I wouldn't have purchased a sub from PSA if I didn't know that Tom hadn't already been down the route of starting up an ID company already with SVS.  Buying something with a 5 year warranty from a new company is a gamble since on average 44% of all start ups are out of business within the first 3 years and by the 5th year it's up to 55%. But since Tom has proven he knows how to travel down this road and since he has proven that he knows how to make great subwoofers, I'm not worked. 

Companies come and go. Some grow too fast, some never really take off, some get hit by recessions or rising costs or vendor problems, and some lack adequate business knowledge, business sense and financial backing. Because PSA was so new, they really weren't on my radar. Actually, when I first began researching subwoofers, neither was SVS. Hsu, on the other hand, was on my radar. Dr. Hsu's reputation, track record and length of time in business placed Hsu Research high on my list (it didn't hurt that they were less than 13 miles from where I live).

So what happened? I bought from both SVS and PSA. Go figure. SVS, I didn't have a concern about because of their track record and their first-rate policies and warrantee. PSA was (is) a gamble for me, especially since most of my audio equipment is from companies with long, established histories. But as you've indicated, both Tom and Jim cut their teeth at SVS and Tom was an integral part of SVS's growth, so I felt the product and business sense should be there at PSA. I also liked the fact that they weren't trying to be all things for all people and slamming out 8, 10, 12, 15, 18-inch driver subwoofers. They seem to be highly focused, which I feel is important for any new company. I knew if there was anything at all I didn't like about the product I auditioned from them, I was ready to ship it back pronto. There wasn't, so I didn't. That doesn't mean I'm still not concerned. Only time will tell how successful PSA will be. But if their first year is any indication, they seem to be able to whether the storms (they've had a few) that all business go through.
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post #49 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I like PSA's warranty but I'll also add that it's early in the game to know whether the product lives up to it or whether the company will be sunk by it. Me, I'd have kept the same pricing but with maybe a 2-3 year warranty with extra cost options for an additional year or two. These long amp warranies scare the sh!t out of me.

I'm pretty sure Tom and Jim have been using Bash amps long enough to be comfortable offer 5 year warranties on them. Although PSA is a new company Tom has been using them in his products for a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

There are a lot of great points being made in this thread. And Chu Gai brings good points about warranty's and new companies. 

I have to say, I wouldn't have purchased a sub from PSA if I didn't know that Tom hadn't already been down the route of starting up an ID company already with SVS.  Buying something with a 5 year warranty from a new company is a gamble since on average 44% of all start ups are out of business within the first 3 years and by the 5th year it's up to 55%. But since Tom has proven he knows how to travel down this road and since he has proven that he knows how to make great subwoofers, I'm not worked. 
Tom certainly has more creds that some other vendors that have come and gone. I don't know what kind of an arrangement he has with his supplier but I would think he has had access to data or performed his own accelerated testing to offer it. Still, from a marketing perspective, I'd go with a buyer option for additional years. And just to restate my position opWRT the OP's post, in that room there really aren't any bad chioices.

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post #50 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I like PSA's warranty but I'll also add that it's early in the game to know whether the product lives up to it or whether the company will be sunk by it. Me, I'd have kept the same pricing but with maybe a 2-3 year warranty with extra cost options for an additional year or two. These long amp warranies scare the sh!t out of me.

I'm pretty sure Tom and Jim have been using Bash amps long enough to be comfortable offer 5 year warranties on them. Although PSA is a new company Tom has been using them in his products for a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

There are a lot of great points being made in this thread. And Chu Gai brings good points about warranty's and new companies. 

I have to say, I wouldn't have purchased a sub from PSA if I didn't know that Tom hadn't already been down the route of starting up an ID company already with SVS.  Buying something with a 5 year warranty from a new company is a gamble since on average 44% of all start ups are out of business within the first 3 years and by the 5th year it's up to 55%. But since Tom has proven he knows how to travel down this road and since he has proven that he knows how to make great subwoofers, I'm not worked. 
Tom certainly has more creds that some other vendors that have come and gone. I don't know what kind of an arrangement he has with his supplier but I would think he has had access to data or performed his own accelerated testing to offer it. Still, from a marketing perspective, I'd go with a buyer option for additional years. And just to restate my position opWRT the OP's post, in that room there really aren't any bad chioices.

+1

Just a little story about Tom caracter,

Way back when Tom and Ron started SVS, I contacted him about my DIY subs and asking if their subswould be better since my DIY were bottoming out.
When he did reply, it was to try to help me with my design and never try to sell me one.
We exchange about a dozen e-mail.
A few years later I bought the PB12/2 Plus then a second one.
Then I bought 2 PB13 Ultra.

When Tom left SVS, he signed an agreement to not start another company for 3 years (I think).
I would buy without hesitation from PSA as he's new venture in sub company.

Ray

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74% of l statistics are made up on the spot

The other 26%, are given a bit of thought first. tongue.gif
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The other 26%, are given a bit of thought first. tongue.gif
You are 98% correct wink.gif

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You are 98% correct wink.gif

...biggrin.gif

(and I was that close)

...tongue.gif
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post #54 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 03:09 PM
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While not so much about statistics, it's always interesting how sometimes data can be misapplied even by such scholarly places like Priceton. Recently folks there wrote about how data suggested that Facebook was not long for this earth. Well, Facebook decided how interesting it would be if they applied Princeton's methodology to Princeton. The following makes for an enjoyable look at things.

https://m.facebook.com/notes/mike-develin/debunking-princeton/10151947421191849

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post #55 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 04:16 PM
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Basically, he consistently bashes the XV15's performance and quality without having seen or heard it, and accuses them of fabricating performance data.  Third party testers go on record stating that the measured performance closely matches PSA'a measurements, and third party measurements and test data reveal that the sub performs admirably well for an under $800 sub.  It has much higher CEA2010 measured output than most ID subs under $800.  Is its performance as linear as SVS.  Nope.  It is a different design.  Does the SVS have much more linear output?  Yes.  Does the fact that it has much lower output than the PSA mean it is a bad sub and should be nitpicked and bashed to death?  No. 

Bear, the data that PSA uses to promote the XV15 was never captured by measurement. It is an inflated extrapolation based on audioholic's testing, so while I can't really say it was fabricated from thin air, I can say it is a generous estimation, not actual measurement. If you had read the links I gave you, you would see how and why PSA is gaming the numbers like that. Honestly I don't care very much how they want to boost their sub's performance, because you can not expect total candor from someone who has something to sell, however when they use manipulated data to put down their competitors in a bogus comparison, that is what irks me. If you look at all the threads where I start knocking PSA's products and marketing, it's only ever because someone misuses data to show that PSA is somehow much better than a competitor. This thread, for example.
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I am not saying it is an irrelevant consideration.  What I am saying is that he looks at one of the XV15's less admirable qualities and uses as a basis to bash it as a total piece of crap sub, and that is just not the case.  All subs, especially in the under $800 price range, make quality sacrifices of some sort.  SVS sacrifices output to maintain perfect linearity.  PSA sacrifices some linearity to achieve maximum output.  Hsu strikes a better balance between the two but does not have as good of a warranty.  They are all good subs, and everyone should evaluate them and pick the one that will work best for them.  I chose an SVS despite its lower output because I felt I did not need the output.  Had I been concerned with max output I likely would have chosen the XV15, as many others have.  I have yet to see any XV15 owner or reviewer complain about its performance or quality, and there are a lot of them out there.  The only one who incessantly bashes the sub is Shady, who has not heard or seen one.  Do you see anyone bashing HSU subs on a daily basis in every forum they post in due to their stamped baskets, short warranty and low powered amps? No, these are the quality concessions that HSU chose to keep their subs at the desired price point.

I agree with some of that, believe it or not. My problem is mostly dishonest performance claims by PSA and its supporters. If their subs are so great, why wouldn't they present the full data set as mandated by the CEA 2010 protocol? If their subs are so great, why do they need to inflate third party measurements? Why don't they submit any other of their subs for testing for a level playing ground against other sub's CEA measurements? They can't, because the only way to make their subs look better than competing subs is by a very vague and slanted view of the data.
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post #56 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 04:32 PM
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Two crap drivers does not equal one good driver. VTF15h. I agree about the FV15HP though.

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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If you look at all the threads where I start knocking PSA's products and marketing, it's only ever because someone misuses data to show that PSA is somehow much better than a competitor. This thread, for example. [\quote]


lol this is how delusional you are. See the quote above. This was your first post in THIS thread alone. No one before that quote said anything about data. But you come in immediately bashing svs. All you do is spew crap. I guess when you lie enough to yourself it becomes truth

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post #57 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Why are you claiming that the VTF-15H is superior just by comparing long term outputs in sealed mode? Heck even directly from the PSA site you can see that the XS30 has better long term compression measurements over the XV15.

XS30



XV15



Also in regards to the THD, you yourself can compare the THD of the VTF15-H between sealed mode and 1 port and 2 port modes and see that in sealed mode the VTF15 has lower THD. So I think it's safe to say that a XS30 will have lower THD then the XV15. But once again thanks for providing me with some good morning laughs worrying that my XS30 is crap....LOL

At least you are using hard data to try to counter my arguments, I can appreciate that jbrown. However, your interpretation of the data is the opposite of what is occurring, I think you might be looking at things backward. First of all, by PSA's own measurements, the XS30 is compressing far worse than the XV15. Look at how sub 20 Hz output gets completely squashed at the maximum output level on the XS30, that is compression. Those graphs show virtually no compression for the XV15 at all. This is not at all what data-bass.com shows for the XV15, by the way; at maximum output sweeps the driver is pushed past its equalization and sails past any semblance of linearity. The compression magnitude of their sub is quite severe and is worse than all but a few subs measured at data-bass. Do some comparisons if you don't believe me. This is just more evidence that PSA can not be trusted to report their sub's performance accurately.

As for THD, you are looking at those measurements the wrong way as well. Go to the VTF15h 'comparison' measurements, and under the multi-series tab, you'll see 110 dB sweeps compared at each mode. You can see the THD for the sealed VTF15h skyrocket below 30 Hz, but as more ports are opened, THD backs off to deeper frequencies. Note that output level of the THD sweeps between the individual sealed and ported charts, in 2 port mode the VTF15h warrants 118 dB sweep, but the sealed mode only warrants a 113 dB sweep. Everything else being equal, a properly ported sub should always net a lot more clean bass around its tuning point. Ports, when properly implemented, are just a heaping gob of clean SPL at the cost of enclosure size and sub-tuning point output. Yes, the XS30 should have lower THD than a XV15, but not around the XV15's tuning point.
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post #58 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If you look at all the threads where I start knocking PSA's products and marketing, it's only ever because someone misuses data to show that PSA is somehow much better than a competitor. This thread, for example.


lol this is how delusional you are. See the quote above. This was your first post in THIS thread alone. No one before that quote said anything about data. But you come in immediately bashing svs. All you do is spew crap. I guess when you lie enough to yourself it becomes truth

Brian, you provoked my reply there, you said the XS30 would be much better than a VTF15h:
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Rhythmic fv15 is much better. Or even the Psa xs30

Based on everything known about the Power X driver, no an XS30 would not be better. Also, the only point where I mention SVS at all is this post where I affirm Kini's recommend of a PC12 Plus for the OP. I agree with Kini, I think the PC12 Plus probably is the best ported sub in its price.
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post #59 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Brian, you provoked my reply there, you said the XS30 would be much better than a VTF15h:
Based on everything known about the Power X driver, no an XS30 would not be better. Also, the only point where I mention SVS at all is this post where I affirm Kini's recommend of a PC12 Plus for the OP. I agree with Kini, I think the PC12 Plus probably is the best ported sub in its price.

Above 30hz a XS30 has twice the output of the VTF15-H, so it wouldn't have to be pushed as hard. So it very well could sound better then a VTF15-H because the VTF15-H is having to work way harder to keep up.
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post #60 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Above 30hz a XS30 has twice the output of the VTF15-H, so it wouldn't have to be pushed as hard. So it very well could sound better then a VTF15-H because the VTF15-H is having to work way harder to keep up.

Its true the VTF15h would have to work harder to keep up, but I don't think the XS30 would have fully twice the output across the board above 30 Hz. Probably from 45 to 55 Hz, I think it would, but not as much outside of that. Remember that sealed designs lose a little bit of efficiency even above the port's band. Also keep in mind the drivers in an XS30 do not have as much power as the XV15 does. We can't know for sure unless data-bass measures one, and I doubt that will ever happen. PSA can not be taken at their word for their sub's performance, they have already proven themselves to be unreliable.
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