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post #91 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Their competitors probably have too much professional tact to outwardly criticize PSA on this. I doubt very much they feel that PSA is presenting an accurate comparison of their subs respective performance, even without the 'value factor'. They will understand that:
A) Averaged CEA measurements give PSA an advantage because of the low quality of their drivers.
B) PSA is using questionable in-house measurements to compare to other data gathered by third parties.
C) CEA 2010 is just one aspect of a sub's performance. It would be like judging cars based on their 0-60 alone.

But hey, there is an easy way to find out how their competitors feel about the way PSA presents their data: you can just ask them. Just shoot an email to any of the companies PSA uses in their comparison guide and ask them if they feel their subwoofer's performance is fairly represented in PSA's comparison guide. It's easy and would only take a couple minutes.

So you feel that PSA has made up the numbers that they are using for the competitors subs?

I'm not going to lie, I don't really care enough to send emails to all of the manufactures listed on there chart. I also don't believe PSA has fabricated any of the manufactures numbers listed on the chart so why would I.
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post #92 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

But is he wrong about what he said?

I don't think he's wrong. I also think Tom is right about the math of extrapolation. I've done my share of building and measuring. The only problem is the combination of the value chart and the extrapolated numbers.
If you are going to make serious claims (and if you were a competitor they would be very serious) with numbers like the chart does, well those better be real numbers. That chart is definitive. The numbers aren't.

As good as the math is, as anyone who's been around awhile knows, a sure thing isn't always a sure thing. And as Shady is trying to point out, what comes along with the extra db? Probably nothing, but we cant be sure because we don't know. You can't assume all the positives and discard all the negatives.

I realize the car analogy is overdone but, If company X produced a value chart showing the value factor of their cars in the form of horsepower, and then said that their dyno test, because of the angle of their frevinator valve, needed to be extrapolated, frankly the fallout would be a lot worse than this has been.
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post #93 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 06:41 PM
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I like following threads like these because the debate often brings out interesting and informative points but I've lost interest in arguing any of the points myself, I'll leave that up to others.

 

However I think we all realize that there will never be any resolution because there's none to be had. Stated simply Shady and others don't like the chart, some guys like me don't care about the chart and others seem to like it. 

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post #94 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

So you feel that PSA has made up the numbers that they are using for the competitors subs?

I'm not going to lie, I don't really care enough to send emails to all of the manufactures listed on there chart. I also don't believe PSA has fabricated any of the manufactures numbers listed on the chart so why would I.

I don't think any of the numbers are fabricated, they are all pulled from third parties. The way the data is being presented is slanted in PSA's favor, and if they were really after a fair comparison, they would restrict themselves to data gathered from a single data set. The truth is their subs just aren't that good, so they can not bare a fair comparison.
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post #95 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I would say that the only thing I don't really think PSA should have on the chart is the value factor. Everything else on they're chart as far as the competitors is info they've gathered that anyone else would have access too. They haven't fabricated the info for the competitors subs and if they had I'm sure some of those competitors would have something to say about it. And the fact that those same competitors post on these very forums we would have probably read about it by now.

J, the chart is the value factor. There is no point to it without that. It's very bold, something that none of the familiar ID companies have done so far. Tom is free to market as he sees fit, but people here are also free to take exception.

Tom is a hardened veteran of the "sub wars". I wouldn't worry about him.
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post #96 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I don't think any of the numbers are fabricated, they are all pulled from third parties. The way the data is being presented is slanted in PSA's favor, and if they were really after a fair comparison, they would restrict themselves to data gathered from a single data set. The truth is their subs just aren't that good, so they can not bare a fair comparison.

Well I glad to hear that you think my sub is garbage...lol rolleyes.gif

I only hope you don't feel that way about my soon to be new setup!...LOL tongue.gif
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post #97 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tack View Post

J, the chart is the value factor. There is no point to it without that. It's very bold, something that none of the familiar ID companies have done so far. Tom is free to market as he sees fit, but people here are also free to take exception.

Tom is a hardened veteran of the "sub wars". I wouldn't worry about him.

Actually the chart was posted on the PSA website without the value factor on it, I believe the revised chart had the value factor added to it.
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post #98 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The truth is their subs just aren't that good, so they can not bare a fair comparison.

I also believe if this was true you'd hear about it on the forums. And the opposite is true really, there is VERY VERY little negative feedback on PSA subs from owners. And there's more then a few that have had the very subs that you seem to believe are better then PSA subs and they all love their PSA subs.

I know of a few that have had PSA subs and ended up going a different route, which usually turns out to be DIY.
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post #99 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

 The truth is their subs just aren't that good, so they can not bare a fair comparison.

 

It hurts a little when someone comes right out and tells you you're sub sucks. :(

 

But since I don't agree with shady and I like my sub I'm happy again. :D

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post #100 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

It hurts a little when someone comes right out and tells you you're sub sucks. frown.gif

But since I don't agree with shady and I like my sub I'm happy again. biggrin.gif

I've said this all along and even had PM conversations with shady about it. I don't agree with his point of view but the great thing about these forums is that I don't have too. I respect his opinion because he sticks by it and I even feel he gets a lot of grief about it, sometimes a little too much. But at the same time its a little self inflected. I personally feel that I would take him a little more serious if he had actually heard any of the PSA subs, but he hasn't so until them all he really has is an opinion. And I think everyone knows how the old saying of opinions goes...lol

I said it before and I'll say it again. Are PSA subs for everyone? No. Are they the best subs around? No. Do I feel they are some on the better subs in their price range? Absolutely. I have nothing bad to say about my XS30 for what it cost me and would have no issues recommending it too anyone.
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post #101 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

I like following threads like these because the debate often brings out interesting and informative points but I've lost interest in arguing any of the points myself, I'll leave that up to others.

If I was to insult you personally, would you consider rejoining the fray? wink.gif


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However I think we all realize that there will never be any resolution because there's none to be had.  

smile.gif

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post #102 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 07:08 PM
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This dead horse will be beaten down into a meaty paste that even Taco Bell would reject.
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post #103 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 07:09 PM
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If I was to insult you personally, would you consider rejoining the fray? wink.gif
  

 

Hmmm… Good question. Depends on how jacked up on coffee I was. :)

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post #104 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 07:11 PM
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This dead horse will be beaten down into a meaty paste that even Taco Bell would reject.

It may have past that point a few threads ago. It might just be raw sewage at this point.  Poor little horse. 

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post #105 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 07:15 PM
 
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The good news.....the horse is dead.

If people keep feeding the troll, like bears, they're going keep coming back. The first couple of times, it's the bear's fault. The bear is just trying to get what they want. After that, it's the tourist's fault, for continuing to feed the bears.

I guess the thread is permanently derailed.
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post #106 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 07:20 PM
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I guess the thread is permanently derailed.

LOL, what was the original topic of this thread again? 

 

Honestly, this PSA chart discussion has derailed more threads than any other discussion I've seen. 

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post #107 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 07:22 PM
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So, we've got a dead horse.. a dead president.. a troll and some bears..

Yeah, what WAS the topic? Something about somebody looking for a $1200 sub or something.
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post #108 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 07:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

LOL, what was the original topic of this thread again?

A concerned forum member and his conflicted personality with PSA subwoofers.....I think.

...tongue.gif

Too many happy campers have bought PSA subs for a single lone voice in the woods, to have "ANY" meaning. Yet, folks insist on engaging this individual as if what they have to say, has "ANY" validity to what they're posting.

Tom can't get his subs out the door fast enough and one day, a large, extinction event sized meteor is going wipe out humanity and if it isn't a meteor, then maybe it will be the super volcano in Yellowstone National Park. The point, there's only one lone voice telling the world, the sky is falling.

-
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post #109 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 07:32 PM
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Back to the topic of this thread, if the budget is $1200 and under I think the XS30 is an excellent sub that should be considered by the OP.
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post #110 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Back to the topic of this thread, if the budget is $1200 and under I think the XS30 is an excellent sub that should be considered by the OP.

 

Me too, I agree!  But then again I said that back in post #16. :rolleyes:

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post #111 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 07:58 PM
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I know the OP specified a single sub due to the small 10x10 room, but I think two small subs like the SB1000 would be easier to place than one big one. One nearfield and one in the opposite front corner would probably sound great in that room and he'd have $200 left over.
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post #112 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 07:59 PM
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It's almost sad how every thread like this gets so side tracked. But it is what it is.

At the end of the day I think PSA's track record says it all and the shear amount of satisfied PSA customers speaks for itself.
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post #113 of 149 Old 01-27-2014, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

But at the same time its a little self inflected. I personally feel that I would take him a little more serious if he had actually heard any of the PSA subs, but he hasn't so until them all he really has is an opinion. And I think everyone knows how the old saying of opinions goes...lol

Verifiable third-party data isn't really a matter of opinion. When I say speaker A or subwoofer B is great or terrible, that of course is opinion, but when I point out data discrepancies, that is objective fact. As for hearing a PSA sub, I doubt I will ever have the opportunity. Both those points brings me to a pertinent anecdote, so have a seat, childens, it's story time. You know, I used to be openly skeptical of Rythmik's claims that their servo technology could make a difference. I thought that tracking the signal ought to have been exclusively a matter if the driver, after all, the most highly regarded available subwoofer systems did not use a feedback mechanism at all. There wasn't any particular piece of data to support or refute Rythmik's claims, so Brian Ping offered to send me one to demo just to hear the difference myself. I told him if he did, I would do a close qualitative comparison with the subs I have access to, and I would post my conclusions as candidly as possible and without any reserve for his generosity. He agreed and sent me a FV12, and I did a close comparison and relayed my findings. I would say from first hand experience the servodrive does make a difference. That is how you deal with a critic if you have a product that is the real thing.

Tom, on the other hand, responded to my technical criticisms by accusing me of having an agenda, of operating a slander campaign, calling me a troll and a lair, telling everyone to put me on ignore, asking why AVSforum doesn't ban me, and claiming I have been stalking him from his SVS days (I definitively disproved this claim, btw). I don't expect everyone whose sub I am critical of to just send me one, but a little more cool professionalism could have been asked for. And remember, my criticisms of PSA's sub up to that point was purely technical, most of this was even before their comparison charts. and I had not attacked anyone personally or said anything about anyone's character. I can understand his heated response because I am, after all, ripping on something he has invested a lot of hard work into, but more honesty and less defensiveness would have prevented many of these arguments.
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

It's almost sad how every thread like this gets so side tracked.

Do not feed the........
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

But is he wrong about what he said?


Yes, he is wrong.  Shady always falls back on this argument that a sub won't get more output with the woofer facing the mic due to distortion.  However, the person who actually does that testing, states that you do get 1-1.5 dB higher CEA2010 numbers, which factors in distortion.  So again, yes, Shady is wrong in his uninformed assumption.

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post #116 of 149 Old 01-28-2014, 05:18 AM
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Ah....that explains everything. The problem though as I see with Shady's tact is that history keeps repeating itself...if reviewing subs has become a passion of his why not simply ask the manufacture(btw nice of Mr Ding in doing so) to provide you with a sub instead of cherry picking certain design implementation. He brushed aside others who have offered similar based users reviews/ or opinions....yet... he didn't provide one spec of empirical data in that thread he linked. Nice read dude but were is the data or measurements...to explain your 110% biased towards Hsu..smile.gif

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post #117 of 149 Old 01-28-2014, 05:56 AM
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Me too, I agree!  But then again I said that back in post #16. rolleyes.gif
i said it wayy before you!! haha tongue.gif

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post #118 of 149 Old 01-28-2014, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
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Ah....that explains everything. The problem though as I see with Shady's tact is that history keeps repeating itself...if reviewing subs has become a passion of his why not simply ask the manufacture(btw nice of Mr Ding in doing so) to provide you with a sub instead of cherry picking certain design implementation. He brushed aside others who have offered similar based users reviews/ or opinions....yet... he didn't provide one spec of empirical data in that thread he linked. Nice read dude but were is the data or measurements...to explain your 110% biased towards Hsu..smile.gif

I do not want to review subwoofers. I didn't provide any empirical data because, like I already stated, I set out to do a qualitative comparison, not a quantitative one. I couldn't bring any worthwhile data to the subwoofer measurements game anyway.
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post #119 of 149 Old 01-28-2014, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

But is he wrong about what he said?


Hi Chu,

I've lost track a little here as my time is *much* better spent in other areas for Power Sound Audio but I did want to address your question above....is this meant for me in some manner?

I can only guess you may be referring to my comments about distance versus pressure? If so, I can assure you....when you move the measurement mic, the pressure will change exactly how I described. Everyone who has spent any amount of time measuring acoustics knows this as a fact, Josh Ricci agrees with this, Bill understands this, there is simply no debate here. It *is* a certainty. When you see folks comparing data scaled to 1 meter (like all of Brent's data) versus something presented at 2m.....they always say....."add 6dB or subject 6dB'. Do you see *anyone* screaming how dishonest this suggestion is? Never, as it is a certainty. No guessing, no "extrapolation"....a 100% certainty. Going from 79" to 91" is *exactly* the same. If it was *any* other manufacturer there would be no fuss about it of course.

And so it goes...

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post #120 of 149 Old 01-28-2014, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

But is he wrong about what he said?


Hi Chu,

I've lost track a little here as my time is *much* better spent in other areas for Power Sound Audio but I did want to address your question above....is this meant for me in some manner?

I can only guess you may be referring to my comments about distance versus pressure? If so, I can assure you....when you move the measurement mic, the pressure will change exactly how I described. Everyone who has spent any amount of time measuring acoustics knows this as a fact, Josh Ricci agrees with this, Bill understands this, there is simply no debate here. It *is* a certainty. When you see folks comparing data scaled to 1 meter (like all of Brent's data) versus something presented at 2m.....they always say....."add 6dB or subject 6dB'. Do you see *anyone* screaming how dishonest this suggestion is? Never, as it is a certainty. No guessing, no "extrapolation"....a 100% certainty. Going from 79" to 91" is *exactly* the same. If it was *any* other manufacturer there would be no fuss about it of course.

And so it goes...

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Hey Tom. It wasn't necessarily directed at you and I take responsibility for my comment not being specific. Before I get to what my overly brief question referred to, I'd like to say the following. IMO using a mathematical formula based on sound principles is eminently reasonable in order to obtain more realistic data especially when looking to compare things. It's no different than using radioactive dating, red shifts to estimate the speed of receding galaxies, or body temperatures to determine time of death. CEA doesn't provide for a defined measurement protocol for every conceivable way a sub can be constructed. After all, how the fvck do you measure a sub that's shaped like a hexagon with three drivers on each of the faces, another driver on the bottom, and maybe a pair of passive radiators?

So, I believe that ShadyJ has overreached with this extrapolation thing. That doesn't mean that other points he's raised don't have some merit and deserving of discussion. After all, jbrown stated there were large discrepencies with HSU on the order of 3 dB or so and the reason turned out to be easily explainable. That doesn't automatically make everything he says or has said invalid.

With that out of the way, please consider the following quote of ShadyJ's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

It isn't quite that simple, despite what PSA would want you to believe. If the woofer is closer to the mic, you would likely measure a bit more output from the woofer's band, but then you lose output from the port's band since it gets further away. You can see this principle demonstrated in one of the tests done of the Premeir Acoustics PA-150, under the tab 'extended measurements', look at the chart labeled 'orientation comparison', it compares the driver with port facing the mic, woofer facing the mic, and I assume a diagonal measurement of the box where both port and woofer are angled 90 degrees from the mic. Furthermore, if the XV15 were tested with woofer facing the mic, it would also get an increase in the THD measurements because a good chunk of those are masked when the driver is in a down-firing configuration. Since the driver is the primary generator of THD, and since CEA is limited by a THD threshold, measuring the XV15 in a down-firing configuration is doing it a big favor for those tests.

It's the bolded parts that interest me, Tom. First of all, I believe it was Bill Fitzmaurice who once said that a downward firing sub inherently masks distortion. Maybe this was only when the sub was on a carpet but I don't recall the particulars. I've looked for corroborative literature to support this but couldn't find any. What are your thoughts on this? Now for the second part. Let's say there is no attenuation of distortion that's driver orientation dependent. Now the sub Ricci tested of yours is down firing and was tested as such. However, in order to get the CEA numbers, they were capped because of the distortion limits imposed by the testing protocol. Hence, while I understand the use of your mathematical correction factor for max SPL, what I don't get is how that's justified unless one also applies that same correction factor to the distortion components? From what I see it looks like what you're doing is not accounting for the increase in THD because if you did, you'd have to nudge that max SPL down. I don't see it as a huge correction but a correction nonetheless. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's cheating, rather that it's expedient and quick to do. Your thoughts?

I also have some more, not too many I think, questions that perhaps you'll be able to find time to answer. Maybe if they're framed in an earnest desire at achieving a deeper understanding?

And jbrown and the rest of you Canadians, you guys have a lot of cojones sticking the US with Bieber. What, Celine Dion wasn't enough for you?!
Tack and WhskyTangoFoxtrt like this.

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