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post #1 of 149 Old 01-24-2014, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi everyone I previously posted for suggestions on a single sub for $850 but have decided to save a little more. I have exactly $1200 so I can spend no more than that. Is the hsu vtf15h still the best buy or is there anything better out there? Note 10x10 room so it must be a single sub.
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post #2 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 05:46 AM
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Rhythmic fv15 is much better. Or even the Psa xs30

Panasonic 65VT30 | Panasonic AE8000 HD PJ | Denon x4100 ATMOS 5.2.4| Emotiva XPA-5 | PSA MT110 x 3 FL/C/FR | PSB B4's | DUAL PSA XS30 | OPPO 103 | minidsp | Buttkicker LFE

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post #3 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 06:43 AM
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+1 to VTF-15H or, because of the size of the room, PSA XS30.

Re. the FV15: My understanding is that Rythmik discontinued it a couple or so months ago.
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post #4 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 07:08 AM
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Oops that's not what I meant. I meant the fv15hp

Panasonic 65VT30 | Panasonic AE8000 HD PJ | Denon x4100 ATMOS 5.2.4| Emotiva XPA-5 | PSA MT110 x 3 FL/C/FR | PSB B4's | DUAL PSA XS30 | OPPO 103 | minidsp | Buttkicker LFE

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post #5 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 07:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ckubs View Post

Hi everyone I previously posted for suggestions on a single sub for $850 but have decided to save a little more. I have exactly $1200 so I can spend no more than that. Is the hsu vtf15h still the best buy or is there anything better out there? Note 10x10 room so it must be a single sub.

If it's absolutely, a single subwoofer with a locked budget of $1,200.00, then a PSA XS30..

What are your stated expectations or goals? How loud are you wanting the sound to go?

Have you checked out the first couple of posts in the ULF thread?
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post #6 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 08:26 AM
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That PSA looks like the cat's PJ's. That would be my choice as well.
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post #7 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 09:00 AM
 
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I love the XS30 but the XS30 doesn't love our room.........sigh.....frown.gif

(unrequited love, the most painful love of all)

But I love you. eek.gif

You suck. tongue.gif
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post #8 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Rhythmic fv15 is much better. Or even the Psa xs30

Two crap drivers does not equal one good driver. VTF15h. I agree about the FV15HP though.
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post #9 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 03:29 PM
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:rollseyes

Panasonic 65VT30 | Panasonic AE8000 HD PJ | Denon x4100 ATMOS 5.2.4| Emotiva XPA-5 | PSA MT110 x 3 FL/C/FR | PSB B4's | DUAL PSA XS30 | OPPO 103 | minidsp | Buttkicker LFE

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post #10 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 03:44 PM
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SVS PC12 plus is another good choice especially in a small room because it takes up so little floor space.
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post #11 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Two crap drivers does not equal one good driver. VTF15h. I agree about the FV15HP though.

How did you come to the conclusion that the dual drivers in the psa subwoofer are "crap"?
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post #12 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepat04 View Post

How did you come to the conclusion that the dual drivers in the psa subwoofer are "crap"?
Shady has an issue with PSA. If you want the best driver you can get for no more than $1200 (not including DIY) then the SVS Pc12 plus is it. The HSU VTF 15 is a really good sub if u have the space for it. Being biased I'd give the overall edge to the pc12+ for he combination of flat response, better amp and better sound quality.

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post #13 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 06:41 PM
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I went FV15HP, but it is above 1200, especially after shipping ....

People really like the XS30. That seems to be the current $1200 go to sub.
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post #14 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Two crap drivers does not equal one good driver. VTF15h. I agree about the FV15HP though.

HAHAHAHAHAHA......rolleyes.gif

Your option means squat till you hear them for yourself. It does not have a crap driver.

Shady I know you've probably mentioned it to me before but can you please remind me what equipment you own?
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post #15 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Shady has an issue with PSA. If you want the best driver you can get for no more than $1200 (not including DIY) then the SVS Pc12 plus is it. The HSU VTF 15 is a really good sub if u have the space for it. Being biased I'd give the overall edge to the pc12+ for he combination of flat response, better amp and better sound quality.

I have read ShadyJ's comments here and on audioholics fourm, he does not like psa or svs, but maybe he knows something we all don't about the psa driver..rolleyes.gif

It's misleading to those that are new to the forum.
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post #16 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 08:25 PM
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10x10 room? The XS30 at $1149 would be a great sub. However, the SVS and HSU are also very good options. 

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post #17 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 08:34 PM
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Some of you guys are suggesting some crazy big subs for a 10x10 room. Me, I'd save myself a few bucks and get the SVS PB-2000. Would be PLENTY for that space. Or, if you're intent on spending all of that $1200, the PC12-Plus if you don't mind cylinders. You can find a little more in the sofa cushions for a PB, or go for the Rythmik HP if you're up in that range. Flip a coin with either of those. They're both awesome subs.
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post #18 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 08:56 PM
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^ Yeah you're right but it's hard not to push the limits when it comes to subs. I'm a big believer in buying the best sub you can based on your budget.

 

You're also right that the PB-2000 would be good in that space as would the PB12-NSD now on discount. 

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post #19 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepat04 View Post

How did you come to the conclusion that the dual drivers in the psa subwoofer are "crap"?

Lol, have you seen them? Have you seen their measured performance? Do an image search for the Power X driver, that will explains its middling performance.
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

SVS PC12 plus is another good choice especially in a small room because it takes up so little floor space.

+1, this is what I would do at 1200 (if I couldn't do DIY for whatever reason). A Hsu ULS-15 or Rythmik E15 would be great choices also.
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post #20 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post


Shady I know you've probably mentioned it to me before but can you please remind me what equipment you own?

Lets see you beat my mega-setup, check it out:



That's right, who is laughing now. You = OWNED!
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post #21 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Lets see you beat my mega-setup, check it out:



That's right, who is laughing now. You = OWNED!

haha....You're lying, you don't own any Bose speakers!...lol
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post #22 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post


Lets see you beat my mega-setup, check it out:



That's right, who is laughing now. You = OWNED!

http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.mx/MLM-437964758-bose-av-3-2-1-ii-no-sony-bowers-onkyo-con-fibra-optica-_JM

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post #23 of 149 Old 01-25-2014, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Lol, have you seen them? Have you seen their measured performance? Do an image search for the Power X driver, that will explains its middling performance.
+1, this is what I would do at 1200 (if I couldn't do DIY for whatever reason). A Hsu ULS-15 or Rythmik E15 would be great choices also.




HSU Driver

PSA driver



Hard to say the PSA is "crap" when compared to HSU's "good" driver, which (hsu driver and components) have been noted in many professional reviews to lack quality components.
data-bass.com has measured the performance of both subwoofers, PSA and HSU, they performed very well.



OP: Because you have a budget of $1200 does not mean you need to spend $1200. Buy an SVS PB2000 and saving the rest to upgrade other parts of your home theater or simply save your money. The PB2000 will provide more then enough output for your room size and if you ever move to a larger space you save to add a second PB2000.

If you want dual subwoofers SB12-NSD;s are 1200 shipped new and if you wait you can buy two PB12 NSD's once all the people who ordered the new SB/PB2k's return theirs and are sold as B Stock.
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post #24 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 12:30 AM
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The VTF15h driver is flat out better, there is no question. What isn't shown in those pictures is the measures taken to control inductance and measures taken to control thermal compression. You wouldn't guess it to look at those pictures that it is a superior driver, but take a look at the measurements. Compare the distortion sweeps, compression magnitude, and long term output, those are metrics that are largely affected by the driver. The VTF15h is much superior. By the way, if you are using that picture to show off the Power X motor, don't bother. Those are 5" magnets, which is typically what you see on 10" sub drivers or cheap 12"s. And what is not shown, but what really kills the Power X driver is the VC. There is too much VC for that magnet and seemingly no shorting rings, and so you end up with some rather sorry measurements for a 15" with 500 watts. I am not even saying the VTF15h driver is somehow a really good one, I don't think it is, and it has its own shortcomings. But the Power X driver is not even on its level, and the problems inherent in that driver design do not go away even if you use two or three or four in a single cabinet.
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post #25 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 03:09 AM
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Given that it's a 10x10 room, does it really matter that much whether one goes HSU, PSA, SVS, or even Otlaw just to throw that in? While there may be shortcomings with the PSA driver, will those deficiencies wuch as variatins in FR with increased output be as readily apparent in such a smallish venue if the sub isn't pushed?

There are a host of other considerations that deserve some attention such as size limitations, what volumes the OP will listen at (especially so if in an apartment or with close neighbors), esthetics, customer support, and warranty to name some. These are things the OP should look to answer and weigh their relative merits.

WRT professional reviews, if they're so professional, then why are they not picking up on some of the points you've raised ShadyJ? Perhaps it's because they were ignorant of them or maybe if they were to bring them up thiey'd soon find themselves with nothing to review. Most professional reviews, those that we read at sundry websites, are pretty much fluff pieces. Even when they're written by folks who have some 'chops', they can be so short that you'd think this was written in a print magazine where the editor says he's limited to 400 words. Or if they're longish, you can't tell if he's really just reviewing a few songs and some redeeming quality of a mediocre movie.

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post #26 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post


Two crap drivers does not equal one good driver. VTF15h. I agree about the FV15HP though.

Quote from Josh Ricci, but of course, he is not as trusted of a source as Shady:

 

"The 15” driver used in this system is constructed on a 12 spoke cast aluminum frame and uses a heavy pressed paper fiber cone with an inverted dust cap. The surround is a large half roll of Rubatek foam which should allow generous excursions. The voice coil is a 2” diameter copper flat wind with an 8” poly cotton spider providing centering and returning force. The motor is comprised of a triple stack of y35 grade magnets of about 5” diameter and a vented pole piece to remove heat from the gap. This driver appears to be sturdy, heavily built for a subwoofer selling in this price class and capable of withstanding large excursions."

 

"What the XV15 does do is make large amounts of bass for not a lot of money. In that regard the XV-15 brings it with a 15” heavy duty driver, 500 watt amplifier and solidly built ported enclosure all tuned together into a well functioning complete system. Not to mention the 5 year bumper to bumper warranty. The fact that it utilizes primarily US sourced components and assembly is icing on the cake for a person like me who cares about such things. Apparently $799 can buy an astonishing amount of performance in the subwoofer kingdom these days."

 

Shady also relentlessly claims that PSA lies about their output numbers on their website, but here is what Josh Ricci, who has actually tested and listened to the sub, has to say:

 

 

"The Data-Bass CEA-2010 results were within about a dB of PSA's own internal results and the other measurements corroborated each other well."

 

 

What I find comical, is that no matter how many times Shady is proven wrong about his relentless obsession with bashing PSA, he still spouts the same unsubstantiated opinions which are proven wrong time and again with factual data.

 

And by the way, Shady, relax a bit about PSA.  Its not like ANY $800 and under sub is using PB13 Ultra level of components when it comes to quality.  All subs..HSU, Outlaw, PSA, SVS, are going to skimp here and there when trying to produce the max bang for the buck in a budget subwoofer.  No one has ever claimed that the PSA driver is the highest quality technological breakthrough of the subwoofer world.  The PSA XV15 is a great combination that produces amazing levels of output and performance for the price.  No one cares anymore how much you hate them and want to nit pick every detail.....if I or anyone else wanted to go on a psychotic, neverending rampage about a specific company, we could bash and nitpick till the cows came home just like you do.  Then you resort to calling them liars about their measurements, but those that have actually done them do not agree with you.  Please, I appreciate some of the input you give at times so don't really want to put you on ignore, but do us all a favor and GET OVER IT.  You are losing any credibility you might otherwise have.

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post #27 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 05:07 AM
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Shady's opinion of the PSA driver

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

"....you end up with some rather sorry measurements for a 15" with 500 watts."

 

Josh Ricci seems to think, based on measured performance(remember, Josh has actually seen, heard, and tested the sub):

 

"CEA-2010 burst output testing indicates that the XV-15 is capable of good output down into the 16-20Hz range in the typical room and produces commendable output from 30-80Hz for a subwoofer in this price class."

 

Shady says long term compression is horrible since the PSA is such a crappy design:

 

"The long term output compression testing shows that the XV-15 maintains good composure up to a 110dB sweep level"

 

This seems pretty good for me for a budget sub under $800 shipped.

 

But hey, no matter what the proof says, we all know you are right Shady.  Keep bashing.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

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post #28 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Given that it's a 10x10 room, does it really matter that much whether one goes HSU, PSA, SVS, or even Otlaw just to throw that in? While there may be shortcomings with the PSA driver, will those deficiencies wuch as variatins in FR with increased output be as readily apparent in such a smallish venue if the sub isn't pushed?

I'm not arguing about the sub's effectiveness in a 10x10 room, my objection is to the statement further up that the XS30 would be much better than a VTF15h. Sorry, that is just not true when you look a little deeper than PSA's inflated CEA measurements.
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What I find comical, is that no matter how many times Shady is proven wrong about his relentless obsession with bashing PSA, he still spouts the same unsubstantiated opinions which are proven wrong time and again with factual data.

And by the way, Shady, relax a bit about PSA.  Its not like ANY $800 and under sub is using PB13 Ultra level of components when it comes to quality.  All subs..HSU, Outlaw, PSA, SVS, are going to skimp here and there when trying to produce the max bang for the buck in a budget subwoofer.  No one has ever claimed that the PSA driver is the highest quality technological breakthrough of the subwoofer world.  The PSA XV15 is a great combination that produces amazing levels of output and performance for the price.  Then you resort to calling them liars about their measurements, but those that have actually done them do not agree with you.  Please, I appreciate some of the input you give at times so don't really want to put you on ignore, but do us all a favor and GET OVER IT. 

I have addressed the points you have raised repeatedly in the past, but as always, everything I said is glossed over. This post and this post from a thread last week address those very same arguments you bring up. As far as the phrase 'factual data', I am the one using data to make my points, you are using blurbs from articles. Example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post


Shady says long term compression is horrible since the PSA is such a crappy design:

"The long term output compression testing shows that the XV-15 maintains good composure up to a 110dB sweep level"

Look at the actual data. The long term output of the XV15 is nowhere near its burst output. That disparity is virtually unmatched by any other subwoofer on data-bass.com, I know of only one exception. This is not a desirable quality. If you want to see something really sad, look at how the XV15's long term output compares with the sealed mode VTF15h's long term output. It shouldn't be anywhere near that close. How is the sealed VTF15h beating a higher powered, ported 15"? Now compare it to the long term output of the two ports open VTF15h. In that mode the VTF15h is nearly twice as powerful through big swaths of the bass range. Yet, PSA claims that the XV15 is 1.2 times more powerful than the VTF15h!? The fact is you will need two Power X drivers just to keep up with the cheapo VTF15h driver for any bass lasting longer than a blip, and an XS30 will not even have the advantage of ports.
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post #29 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 08:03 AM
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What about looking into the new reaction audio brand?

They are working on pricing yet for shipping on their new dual 15 inch subs but I believed they are trying to price it at around 1000 shipping included

I don't have a lot of info yet but they did spark my interest and I'll do a lil more reaserch on them myself.

In the mean time look em up. They might be a good option

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post #30 of 149 Old 01-26-2014, 08:37 AM
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What about looking into the new reaction audio brand?

They are working on pricing yet for shipping on their new dual 15 inch subs but I believed they are trying to price it at around 1000 shipping included

I don't have a lot of info yet but they did spark my interest and I'll do a lil more reaserch on them myself.

In the mean time look em up. They might be a good option

They have the pricing up for the 15" now. $880 or $1550 for a pair.

http://reaction-audio.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/bps-215-powered-subwoofer
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Xs30 , Fv15hp Subwoofer , Hsu Vtf 15h Subwoofer , Svs Pb12 Plus Black Oak 12 Inch 800 Watt Powered Subwoofer

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