Recommendation for "musical" $500 sub? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers > Recommendation for "musical" $500 sub?
pokekevin's Avatar pokekevin 12:04 PM 01-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Never posted that Seaton or Funk have compromised performance and yes, in the case of price/performance, of course my perspective is narrowed considerably. Last I checked, doing this is not a crime and should not be treated as such.

Out of fairness, if one is going compare a FV15HP with Seaton or Funk, then one should include price/performance and now one has a level playing field in which a pair of FV15HPs can be reasonably compared to the performance of a single Seaton or Funk; price/performance. This is why I added the "some" to the comment as it's not a level playing field if one doesn't take into consideration, price/performance.

The point, if someone takes the pretty out of the subwoofer, all they have left is price/performance.

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I would suggest next time you say if you want pretty and similar performance as it sounds better than "If one wants pretty and "some" performance"smile.gif

BeeMan458's Avatar BeeMan458 12:12 PM 01-29-2014
You post things your way, and I'll post thing my way. That's fair. If people didn't go around challenging every single thing not to their liking, forum life would be so much less contentious. What's with you guys and your need to control everybody not like you?

As the quotations indicate, "some" was an important aspect of my comment. It was intentional. There was no misstep. Do I pile on you every time you post something I find disagreeable? The point, was for the OP to think about his situation. He's locked away in the late 90's and doesn't realize it. Okay, I've failed. Good for me, I failed. I'm okay with this point. It's not about you, me or the lamp post but instead is about the OP getting insightful information that will help them find a solution that will end their sojourn. The OP has indicated that he's not interested in what I have to share. I'm okay with this point.

The point, beating on me, is the same as beating on a dead horse. The point, stop beating on me (the dead horse) and for the benefit of the OP, move comments forward.

(if the OP wishes, PM me and I'm happy to carry on a dialogue but I'm going explore the issue and share insight, not just give yes answers. To me, subwoofer/music/home theater/speakers/budget/EQ/amplifier/today's sound tracks/expectations, et cetera, the OP is seriously conflicted)

If the above point is found offensive, don't PM me and we'll both forget about it.

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bear123's Avatar bear123 02:36 PM 01-29-2014

I can understand where the confusion is coming from :

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

" If one wants pretty and "some" performance, look to Seaton Sound"
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post


"A beg to differ, the Seaton products are great performers."
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


Never posted that Seaton or Funk have compromised performance
 

I can understand why he would feel that is what you were saying.  Anyway, discussing 1500-$3000 dollar subs in a $500 sub thread probably does not help the op much.


RippyD's Avatar RippyD 03:22 PM 01-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

You post things your way, and I'll post thing my way. That's fair. If people didn't go around challenging every single thing not to their liking, forum life would be so much less contentious. What's with you guys and your need to control everybody not like you?

As the quotations indicate, "some" was an important aspect of my comment. It was intentional. There was no misstep. Do I pile on you every time you post something I find disagreeable? The point, was for the OP to think about his situation. He's locked away in the late 90's and doesn't realize it.
I'd like to point out some incongruity in your post.

I mentioned that low bass was not something I wanted in my subs (below 30Hz). I gave this as a condition when asking others for help in choosing subs. Whether intended or not, your replies come across as telling me that my preference is wrong. Even above you sound condescending or judgmental when you say I am "stuck in the 90s." You're asking people not to pile on when they disagree with you, yet you appear to be doing just that with me. Do you not see that saying I'm "stuck in the 90s" comes across as criticism?

Some history again: Until about 2005 (maybe 2006?) I had a Lexicon MC-12, which has to be considered one of the best AV processors at that time. It was way ahead of practically everything else on the market. (Maybe the Meridian of the time time frame was close.) I suspect you haven't heard Logic 7 (no judgement), but imo it's still better than anything else for 7 channel processing (my opinion - I'm not saying this as an absolute). So if in 2006 I had the best AV technology available (arguably), and I had great speakers (Aerials) and good amps, and a REL sub, how exactly am stuck in the 90s?. Not to brag, but my HT in 2005/2006 was on the leading edge of HT. When I ditched my Lexicon and got my HK, I was still current.

So saying I'm stuck in the 90s is not just a criticism of my opinion, it's factually wrong. I suppose you could argue that I'm stuck in 2006 or 2007. And btw, I'm not at all offended or put out - I get that my opinions and preferences are different.

I took the effort to write this just to point out that at the same time you're asking others not to judge you, you're judging me. I suspect you're not seeing this.

(edited for typos and clarity)
BeeMan458's Avatar BeeMan458 04:09 PM 01-29-2014
Please, if you think I need to be ripped, take it to PM.

There's no incongruity in my response. Asking a question online, is no guarantee that responses are going be what you want to read. As to judging you, I'm not judging you. I'm taking what you posted and replied with insight that doesn't serve your purpose. I'm seeing a lot more than you're giving credit for and obviously I'm doing a terrible job of communicating what I'm seeing and you've locked the door. I'm okay with this point.

As I posted earlier, my recommendation, get your old system operating and go from there. I can see you're not comfortable with what I've posted and I'm good. If what I've shared doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you and you've made your position perfectly clear. I stand by all that I've posted and again, if what I posted doesn't work for you, than it doesn't work for you. No need to carry on telling me that I don't understand. If you think I don't understand, than for you, I don't understand. I'm okay with this point.

What ever you choose to do, I know you'll be happy with and it's your system, your happiness and that's all that matters.

Allow me to repeat myself:

It's not about you, me or the lamp post but instead is about the OP getting insightful information that will help them find a solution that will end their sojourn. The OP has indicated that he's not interested in what I have to share. I'm okay with this point.

The point, beating on me, is the same as beating on a dead horse. The point, stop beating on me (the dead horse) and for the benefit of the OP, move comments forward.

(if the OP wishes, PM me and I'm happy to carry on a dialogue but I'm going explore the issue and share insight, not just give yes answers. To me, subwoofer/music/home theater/speakers/budget/EQ/amplifier/today's sound tracks/expectations, et cetera, the OP is seriously conflicted)

If the above point is found offensive, don't PM me and we'll both forget about it.


I tried to help by responding thoughtfully to your question and failed. I'm good with this point. A suggestion, let it go, move on and find information that works for you that will answer the questions surrounding your concerns and put your mind at ease.

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RippyD's Avatar RippyD 05:13 PM 01-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Please, if you think I need to be ripped, take it to PM.
That was a lot of words to not say much or address my point. You wrote a post complaining about people being critical and then criticized me in that same post. C'est la vie. I wish you much enjoyment from your system.

(edited for typos and clarity - need to slow down)
cel4145's Avatar cel4145 07:25 PM 01-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Based on the requirements you listed in your original post, IMO the best advice you've received so far can be found in posts #2 and #3. biggrin.gif

I agree.

To get things back on topic and away from the double standards of a certiain poster wink.gif, I have an SB-1000. I think it sounds great, and I would highly recommend it in a smaller space. But I wouldn't use two of them in a room even close to the size of yours, RippyD. If you are using these at all for HT, I don't think dual SB-1000s could come close to supporting the dynamics in bluray soundtracks at louder volumes. The SVS subs do have very good limiters built into to prevent the sub from over driving (you won't hurt them), but you wouldn't have the same experience. If your budget were a little higher and you are not looking to run your HT/music setup super loud, I think dual Dual SB12-NSDs would definitely be better. Slightly larger enclosure and more power (so more volume output) with a slightly better driver than the SB-1000.

It seems to me that for that size room and at ~$500, dual PB-1000s might be your best bet given your focus on SQ. Take the 19hz low end extension as a plus that you would actually enjoy with HT usage, even though it's not a primary factor in your decision making.

BTW: My living room is 6000 cubic feet, so I have some experience with different subs. It really does make a difference if you have enough sub to support the size of the room.
RippyD's Avatar RippyD 07:30 PM 01-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

BTW: My living room is 6000 cubic feet, so I have some experience with different subs. It really does make a difference if you have enough sub to support the size of the room.
Yeah.... one way or another you gotta move the air. With the high ceilings I'm estimating about 7400 cubic feet. I agree that a bigger box makes sense.

And to be clear, I'm not opposed to a sub that goes low, I just don't need it. And you won't feel the room shake at my house, but you will hear airplanes flying overhead. wink.gif
cel4145's Avatar cel4145 07:46 PM 01-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RippyD View Post

Yeah.... one way or another you gotta move the air. With the high ceilings I'm estimating about 7400 cubic feet. I agree that a bigger box makes sense.

And to be clear, I'm not opposed to a sub that goes low, I just don't need it. And you won't feel the room shake at my house, but you will hear airplanes flying overhead. wink.gif

Does that mean you don't like to run your system that loud? Sorry. I was confused by that.

The thing is with HT usage, at volumes where dialogue is fairly loud, when the scenes with bass kick in, you need a lot of sub to keep with up with the dynamics of the movie sound track. And I don't know what kind of music you are into, but if it's bass heavy music and you want to watch a bluray concert at louder concert like volumes, once again, you need a lot of SPL output. That room is just giant.

I've been there. I've run 10" ported sub in my 6,000 cubic ft. living room (not quite as much output as the PB-1000). The 10" was totally inadequate. Next, an Outlaw LFM-1 EX 12" ported, which is a large, higher output sub. It did pretty well. Now I run dual 18" sealed subs, although dual Outlaws would have been quite good.

One thing you might consider. Are you open to spending much of your budget on a single sub now, and then adding a 2nd matching sub in a year or so? This single HSU VTF-15H would do quite well in that space. Or for a little less output, less money, and a little smaller, one of these SVS PB-2000s to start.
RippyD's Avatar RippyD 08:04 PM 01-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Does that mean you don't like to run your system that loud? Sorry. I was confused by that.
I run it plenty loud. I just don't crank up the subs, and I will tend to dial them down relative to most other people, particularly below 30Hz. Most subs roll off nicely down there anyway. Not to be overly redundant, but the only way I can explain it is that when listening to the average HT I want to dial down the bass. Many other seem to want to dial it up. And I like LF - I just want it to sound realistic and natural. But this again is very subjective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

One thing you might consider. Are you open to spending much of your budget on a single sub now, and then adding a 2nd matching sub in a year or so?
I would certainly consider it. I was thinking two smaller, cheaper subs would get me there sooner. But long term that may be a better option.
cel4145's Avatar cel4145 08:23 PM 01-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RippyD View Post

I run it plenty loud. I just don't crank up the subs, and I will tend to dial them down relative to most other people, particularly below 30Hz. Most subs roll off nicely down there anyway. Not to be overly redundant, but the only way I can explain it is that when listening to the average HT I want to dial down the bass. Many other seem to want to dial it up. And I like LF - I just want it to sound realistic and natural. But this again is very subjective.

That's not for me, but it's understandable smile.gif

And it makes sense because the whole idea behind the .1 channel in HT is to add in extra bass emphasis on an HT soundtrack. My understand is that it doesn't actually add new bass that's not present otherwise so much as more bass output (but I could be wrong). For you, too bad it's not possible just to turn that channel off for you.

That VTF-15H has three modes: 1 port open, 2 ports open, and sealed (see the owners guide). Along with some Q adjustment to further refine the response. You can do the same thing with their slightly smaller 12" HSU VTF-3 MK4. The sealed mode would give you the most roll off at the low end. With either of those subs, you have a lot of fine tuning options for setting them up more the way you want than most other subwoofers in this price range. And I would imagine, based upon what you are describing, that dual VTF-3 MK4s would probably give you enough output in your room at the reduced bass volumes you describe. You could start with one. Then adding another later would give you a few more db of output and the option to help smooth the bass response across a wider area.
Tack's Avatar Tack 08:24 PM 01-29-2014
Been thinking about this, and if it really needs to be two subs, and it needs to be at about a G, the SB1000s are probably going to be your best bet, as our Northern friend Eljay the Canuck wink.gif and Cel have said.

I do think the PA 150s or whatever would be good too, but the easy re-sale of the SVS (if need be) sways that argument for me.A lot of us here have bought from SVS at one time or another. Whether we've upgraded from them or still own them, almost no one has regretted the purchase. That's pretty rare I think.
RippyD's Avatar RippyD 08:45 PM 01-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tack View Post

I do think the PA 150s or whatever would be good too, but the easy re-sale of the SVS (if need be) sways that argument for me.A lot of us here have bought from SVS at one time or another. Whether we've upgraded from them or still own them, almost no one has regretted the purchase. That's pretty rare I think.
Another excellent point. I don't swap speakers often, but I do tend to change equipment more frequently than others. I try to stay in the sweet spot of the depreciation curve.
pokekevin's Avatar pokekevin 09:35 PM 01-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I agree.

To get things back on topic and away from the double standards of a certiain poster wink.gif, I have an SB-1000. I think it sounds great, and I would highly recommend it in a smaller space. But I wouldn't use two of them in a room even close to the size of yours, RippyD. If you are using these at all for HT, I don't think dual SB-1000s could come close to supporting the dynamics in bluray soundtracks at louder volumes. The SVS subs do have very good limiters built into to prevent the sub from over driving (you won't hurt them), but you wouldn't have the same experience. If your budget were a little higher and you are not looking to run your HT/music setup super loud, I think dual Dual SB12-NSDs would definitely be better. Slightly larger enclosure and more power (so more volume output) with a slightly better driver than the SB-1000.

It seems to me that for that size room and at ~$500, dual PB-1000s might be your best bet given your focus on SQ. Take the 19hz low end extension as a plus that you would actually enjoy with HT usage, even though it's not a primary factor in your decision making.

BTW: My living room is 6000 cubic feet, so I have some experience with different subs. It really does make a difference if you have enough sub to support the size of the room.

When did you get the SB-1000s??
Tack's Avatar Tack 10:05 PM 01-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RippyD View Post

Another excellent point. I don't swap speakers often, but I do tend to change equipment more frequently than others. I try to stay in the sweet spot of the depreciation curve.

I find the sweet spot of the depreciation curve is the arcing motion of my debit card being put back in my wallet. Other than that its human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together...Mass Hysteria!

smile.gif gotta have one Ghost Busters quote that doesn't get yanked.
cel4145's Avatar cel4145 10:42 PM 01-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

When did you get the SB-1000s??

I just have one that I got early in the fall. Using it with my computer desktop setup.

I'd take one Outlaw EX over dual SB-1000s for a room as big as RIppyDs. I just don't see how they could have enough output.
RippyD's Avatar RippyD 08:11 AM 01-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tack View Post

I find the sweet spot of the depreciation curve is the arcing motion of my debit card being put back in my wallet. Other than that its human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together...Mass Hysteria!

smile.gif gotta have one Ghost Busters quote that doesn't get yanked.
LOL - very nice. Who would have ever expected to find poetry on the AVSForum?
kramskoi's Avatar kramskoi 05:36 PM 01-31-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RippyD View Post

So I was going to reply to Tack's post with the Ghostbuster's quote. It was taking me a while to think of an appropriately witty comeback. But it seems that post is gone. Are we really this thin skinned here?

Not pointing fingers and not going to fight with anybody. But if you're going to be opinionated and confrontational, you need to be willing to take it as well. And since I'm here and possibly offending, I may as well keep going...

I get that for many of you "slam" equals HT. As I've said several times, not so for me. I'm all about the detail and having the speakers disappear. If I can locate the center with my eyes closed, it's no good for me. If I can locate the surrounds (other than for calibration) it's no good for me. Good HT for me is when dialog is incredibly clear and male voices have no hump or gap, and all the speakers disappear. When an airplane flying over makes me want to duck because it seamlessly moves front to back (or diagonally), that's good HT. While watching some movie a few years ago one of my guests was freaked out because she kept hearing a footsteps and door opening upstairs in the house. Most of the HTs I listen to don't come close to this.

That's what I'm aiming for. It's my preference
Rippy, it depends a bit on if you enjoy what's termed a "theatrical" bottom octave. You can dial a subwoofer up hotter than a firecracker but beyond a certain point it becomes fatiguing and distracting from the presentation. If it destroys you every second of the film with superfluous levels of chest crushing bass, then where are the dynamics? I firmly believe that if a subwoofer does music really well, then it will also do home theater well. I will qualify that [before the wolves come calling] with the cautionary caveat that such a subwoofer must also be capable of the requisite level of output for the presentation.

Sometimes it is a bit sobering listening to a critical Q sub because some music just does not have an appreciable amount of umph down low, especially if the recording is rather poor...but the ones that do...look out! It is rather striking how a sub can sound tiny in one second but bottomless in another. I would even say that the sound signature is an acquired taste...it only gives you what is there...nothing more, nothing less and it will resolve a lot of detail. Sounds like that is the type of sound you prefer.
RippyD's Avatar RippyD 07:22 PM 01-31-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by kramskoi View Post

I would even say that the sound signature is an acquired taste...it only gives you what is there...nothing more, nothing less and it will resolve a lot of detail. Sounds like that is the type of sound you prefer.
Can't disagree with anything you said.

I grew up (teens and 20s) going to jazz clubs rather than rock concerts. And I played jazz (badly) and classical (less badly). I like rock as well, but jazz and classical are my staples. My 2-channel system gets me to the point that I can just lose myself in the music (obviously dependent on the recording) and go to a different place. The equipment is transparent.

When I had my Lex MC-12/Aerial HT setup I was playing a DVD in Logic 7 music mode. We'd been using it for HT and this was maybe the first time I did music with the wife #1 (now the ex). She was just gone for the duration of the DVD. (btw, she's a decent guitar player and an excellent singer.) It was probably the Clapton Unplugged DVD, but not sure on that.

So that's what I'm going for - sound so good it will transport you. I've spent dozens of nights in jazz clubs and listening to other live music, and countless hours listening to the ex play and practice. Nothing sounds better to me than live music in a smaller, intimate setting.
RippyD's Avatar RippyD 09:04 AM 02-11-2014
Just to follow up, here's where I ended up:

Pretty clear that my original goal is just not realistic and I would not be happy with two less expensive subs. So the advice to spend more on a better sub is the right way to go. There are a couple recommended here that look excellent. $1K gets me a good sub. $1500 gets me an excellent sub. I was heading down the path of a pro sub with a matching plate amp when I just happened to find a used Aerial sub at fantastic price. So it's on the way. In addition to being a great sub, the wife won't hate it.

The downside to this is that I could be waiting a very long time to find a matching sub at a good price. This also satisfies my "what if I need to sell it" requirement.
BeeMan458's Avatar BeeMan458 09:09 AM 02-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RippyD View Post

So the advice to spend more on a better sub is the right way to go. There are a couple recommended here that look excellent. $1K gets me a good sub. $1500 gets me an excellent sub. I was heading down the path of a pro sub with a matching plate amp when I just happened to find a used Aerial sub at fantastic price. So it's on the way.

Congratulations on your purchase choice. We'll all eagerly look forward to you posting your first impressions on it's arrival.
LastButNotLeast's Avatar LastButNotLeast 09:38 AM 02-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RippyD View Post

Just to follow up, here's where I ended up:
 

Much to no one's surprise. Congratulations, and enjoy it.


Tags: Svs Sb1000 12 Inch 300 Watt Powered Subwoofer , Svs Sb2000 , Rythmik Audio Lv12r , Rythmik
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