Recommendation for "musical" $500 sub? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Looking for a pair of ~$500 subs for my HT. I know there are a ton of suggestions here. I’m asking specifically because I don’t want slam. I do want the best possible integration with my other speakers. I don't care about going below 30Hz or shaking the room.

My mains are flat to ~45Hz, my center is more like 60Hz. So my requirements for the sub are pretty minimal (~30-60Hz). The room is ~600 sq. ft. with vaulted ceilings. I’ll be doing some minor room treatments once I get in there – not sure what yet. It’s all about seamless integration for me, not room thumping bass.

Ideally I’d get a used pair of REL Strata IIIs or something similar, if that helps. (Actually, ideally I’d have a pair of Aerial subs.)

Suggestions?
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post #2 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 08:00 AM
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Looking for a pair of ~$500 subs ... I don’t want slam. I do want the best possible integration with my other speakers. I don't care about going below 30Hz or shaking the room.
Dual SVS SB-1000 ($949, shipped, for the pair).


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post #3 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 08:11 AM
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A pair of Rythmik LV12Rs are $1090 shipped.
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post #4 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 08:41 AM
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Kinda interesting the OP doesn't want slam and doesn't care about output below 30hz?

I think I agree with eljay once again. dual SB1000's get my vote.

Rippy is that a sealed room or open to other areas of the house?

Shawn
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post #5 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 08:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RippyD View Post

Suggestions?

A little bit more about your situation would be helpful. What you described was a need for a pair of subwoofers, dedicated to music and any home theater use was secondary and you really didn't care what the home theater sounded like.

Size of room?

AVR used?

What are your emotional expectations?

Need more data.
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post #6 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

Kinda interesting the OP doesn't want slam and doesn't care about output below 30hz?
Interesting because it's different? It's a preference.

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Rippy is that a sealed room or open to other areas of the house?

It's a closed room.

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post #7 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

A little bit more about your situation would be helpful. What you described was a need for a pair of subwoofers, dedicated to music and any home theater use was secondary and you really didn't care what the home theater sounded like.

How or where did I describe that? Perhaps you're thinking about your requirements for HT rather than mine?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Size of room?
About 600 sq. ft. I think it's about 22x28.

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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

AVR used?
An older HR AVR - I can't recall the model. (Everything is in storage today.) It's got good Logic-7, which I prefer to most other processing. Not the same level of config as a Lexicon, but good enough for now. Depending on how things go financially, I could see upgrading.

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What are your emotional expectations?
To have great sound envelop me in a way that is natural and non-distracting. I want dialog to be clear an uncontested, and effects to be as good as they reasonable can. My old 7.1 system did this incredibly well, and I'm trying to get back that. For now I'll be starting with 5.1 or 5.2.

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Need more data.
Anything else you'd like to know?

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post #8 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DualMono View Post

A pair of Rythmik LV12Rs are $1090 shipped.

This is what I would go with also. I think a pair of SB-1000s will get lost in that room.

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post #9 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 12:24 PM
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Logic 7 appears to be signal processing but not equalization, so integrating your subwoofers may be a bit more of a challenge.
Subs won't do anything with your dialog, so, if you're happy with your mains, you'll still be happy.
In the future, think of the front three speakers as a set; when the time comes, upgrade them together.
In the meantime, duals from SVS come with a 45-day trial:
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/dual-subwoofers

Downloadable FREE demo discs:

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post #10 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 12:32 PM
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Funny the OP ask for a $500 sub and members come back with $1000 and dual subs without knowing his room size,... even stated that he didn't need to be hit up the side of the head with bass as I read it.

IMO one PB-1000 likely could be enough for the OP.


edit-- never mind I cant read!
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post #11 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Logic 7 appears to be signal processing but not equalization, so integrating your subwoofers may be a bit more of a challenge.
Correct. Did not mean to imply that Logic 7 was about EQ. My AVR has whatever EQ HK was using a few years ago. It seems adequate, but I won't know until I get in there. I could end up EQing manually, but I hope not.

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Subs won't do anything with your dialog, so, if you're happy with your mains, you'll still be happy.
You lost me. Any dialog with audio below the x-over I have set for my center and/or fronts will go to the subs. Why would that not be the case? Or is your point that dialog doesn't go that low?

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In the future, think of the front three speakers as a set; when the time comes, upgrade them together.
I'm good on front/center speakers. The next upgrade I make (if ever) would be to an Aerial CC5 center and LR5 fronts. No question what I want, it's just a matter of money.

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post #12 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by RippyD View Post

You lost me. Any dialog with audio below the x-over I have set for my center and/or fronts will go to the subs. Why would that not be the case? Or is your point that dialog doesn't go that low?

 



No, I didn't lose you at all. There is very little dialog < 80Hz. See for yourself, turn off your subs and listen just to the dialog.

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post #13 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mark62 View Post

Funny the OP ask for a $500 sub and members come back with $1000 and dual subs without knowing his room size,... even stated that he didn't need to be hit up the side of the head with bass as I read it.



IMO one PB-1000 likely could be enough for the OP.

 



Actually, he asked: "Looking for a pair of ~$500 subs for my HT."
For which he has gotten many good suggestions.
And he can certainly try one PB-1000. I love mine. And he'll have 45 days to try it (and a year to upgrade it).

Downloadable FREE demo discs:

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post #14 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark62 View Post

Funny the OP ask for a $500 sub and members come back with $1000 and dual subs without knowing his room size,... even stated that he didn't need to be hit up the side of the head with bass as I read it.



IMO one PB-1000 likely could be enough for the OP.

 



Actually, he asked: "Looking for a pair of ~$500 subs for my HT."
For which he has gotten many good suggestions.
And he can certainly try one PB-1000. I love mine. And he'll have 45 days to try it (and a year to upgrade it).

Huh, I thought I read the post guess not... OOPS!
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post #15 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 12:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

A little bit more about your situation would be helpful. What you described was a need for a pair of subwoofers, dedicated to music and any home theater use was secondary and you really didn't care what the home theater sounded like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RippyD View Post

How or where did I describe that? Perhaps you're thinking about your requirements for HT rather than mine?

Because your specifications are perfect for music and despite mentioning home theater in you OP, your specs are terrible for home theater purpose. Hence my comment.

Quote:
About 600 sq. ft. I think it's about 22x28.

That's a very large room. Not a fitting room for a single, $500.00 subwoofer; especially if thinking of home theater use. But it might work for music.

Quote:
An older HR AVR - I can't recall the model. (Everything is in storage today.) It's got good Logic-7, which I prefer to most other processing. Not the same level of config as a Lexicon, but good enough for now. Depending on how things go financially, I could see upgrading.

From what I found, the best I could surmise, "Logic-7" is a DSP as opposed to an EQ'g program.

Quote:
To have great sound envelop me in a way that is natural and non-distracting. I want dialog to be clear an uncontested, and effects to be as good as they reasonable can. My old 7.1 system did this incredibly well, and I'm trying to get back that. For now I'll be starting with 5.1 or 5.2.

Have you established any sort of AVR budget. Currently the board standard is the Audyssey MultEQ XT32 w/SubEQ HT. What AVRs are you interested in?

Quote:
Anything else you'd like to know?

Things have changed considerably in the last few years. My recommendation would be to get your old system hooked up, go slow and spend some time figuring out where you are in the whole home theater thing and decide how much money you're willing to spend to bring your system up to today's standards. I think you're going be quite unpleasantly surprised.
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post #16 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 12:56 PM
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Logic-7 is a Harmon Kardon's own Processing similar to pro-logic I believe.
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post #17 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Because your specifications are perfect for music and despite mentioning home theater in you OP, your specs are terrible for home theater purpose.
Not trying to argue. How are my specs terrible for HT? I don't want a lot of slam or room shaking. I do want seamless integration with my other speakers. How is that terrible for HT? It's a preference.

Not sure if this helps, but I'm not new to this. I've had HT off an on since ~1997. The last big system I had was a Lex MC-12, Citation amps (and one Acurus), all Aerial speakers, and an M&K sub. It sounded great, and certainly was better than 95% of everything else I head.

My favorite HT today is a friends who has Aerial 9s in the front, a CC5 center, SR3s on the sides and Aerial 5s in the back. And Aerial subs. I'm looking to get as close to that as I can with what I have today. My biggest gap is subs.

I'll live with the HK processor I have today and go from there. I get that it's not new and could be improved. Given everything I've heard, my preference is still Logic 7 processing. I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying it's my preference. I get that there is far better room correction available. For now, I won't have that. I'm going to focus on getting up and running and some room treatment first.

Apologies - I thought Logic 7 was more commonly known. In retrospect, it's known only amount Lexicon and HK dorks. Sorry about that.

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post #18 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 01:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RippyD View Post

Not trying to argue. How are my specs terrible for HT? I don't want a lot of slam or room shaking. I do want seamless integration with my other speakers. How is that terrible for HT? It's a preference.

Many home theater based sound tracks have a boatload of effects in the <30Hz range. A double bass guitar goes down to, IIRC, 31.5Hz. So with a 30Hz specification, you're addressing music, not home theater. On the other hand, home theater is spec'd for slam and room shaking: visceral response. Take that out, and you take out much of the intended emotional impact the director and sound engineer, worked to mix into the sound track. Home Theater specs are spec'd to <20Hz with need for 20dB headroom for peak action sequences.

Today vs the 1990s, music and home theater have become two totally different genres. I realize and understand regarding "preference" but the spec's your preference encompasses is terrible for home theater but excellent for music. You're looking at pricey speakers but looking to get subwoofers that will not perform for the size of the room you're going put them in and one needs an AVR that's up to the task of filling the +4,800^3 room with adequate sound.

This sound track is spec'd to 20Hz:



This sound track is spec'd to <5Hz.



And the ability of a subwoofer system to perform is going be based on the size of the room it's asked to perform in and if the room has ancillary opening to other large spaces, the demands on the subwoofer system are going be greater as in effect, the ancillary rooms are going bleed off a lot of your bass energy.

Check out the first couple of posts in the ULF thread.

The above is why I suggest getting your old system up and running and take some time to wrap your think around the new way home theater is being presented.

As to your HK processor, there's a DSP processor and there's room EQ'g software. Audyssy MultEQ XT32/SubEQ HT is designed to dial in your speakers and subwoofer system, with the intent of giving one a flat (+/- 3dB) room response as opposed to sound processing.

Audyssey MultEQ XT32

Audyssey SubEQ HT

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post #19 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 01:40 PM
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I reckon the M&K are sealed, so coming from a sealed M&K. I would recommend 1 Rythmik F12 or F15HP (or go ported for if you want more spl due to the size of the room) as a pair is over your budget then add one more in the future. I had an older M&K in the past and the Rythmik ran circles around it. The Rythmik are well regarded for music and is servo controlled
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post #20 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 02:08 PM
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That is quite the large room you got there

22 x 28 x 8 = 4900 cu. ft and your ceiling are vaulted so that makes your room even larger.

I second the recommendation of the SVS PB-1000 or Rhythmik's LV12R. I am willing to bet though that the Rhytmik might suit you better.
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post #21 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Many home theater based sound tracks have a boatload of effects in the <30Hz range. A double bass guitar goes down to, IIRC, 31.5Hz. So with a 30Hz specification, you're addressing music, not home theater. On the other hand, home theater is spec'd for slam and room shaking: visceral response. Take that out, and you take out much of the intended emotional impact the director and sound engineer, worked to mix into the sound track. Home Theater specs are spec'd to <20Hz with need for 20dB headroom for peak action sequences.



As to your HK processor, there's a DSP processor and there's room EQ'g software. Audyssy MultEQ XT32/SubEQ HT is designed to dial in your speakers and subwoofer system, with the intent of giving one a flat (+/- 3dB) room response as opposed to sound processing.
Yep, I get all that. You seem to be telling me that I should care more about the stuff below 30Hz. I don't. I have no interest is shaking the room. My emotional satisfaction with the content I watch is just fine. I understand that your opinion is that my preference is limiting my experience and that I'm not getting all the sound that I could be. I get that my system may not satisfy you.

See above about my desired system: it's about as good as any HT system available today. I get how a good HT sounds. I get how good LF sounds. I've had HTs with adequate, good, and great speakers. For me, it's about the vocals and integration between speakers. Great bass with mediocre fronts and center I can't stand. The room shaking stuff just doesn't do it for me. Some people like chocolate, some like vanilla. Neither is better or worse.

I get the the difference between a DSP and EQ. I've used both for a long time and am not confused about their usage. My preference for DSP is Logic 7, which is why I suspect I'll be happy with HK for a while. The EQ is not great. If I have to EQ the sub(s) manually for them to sound better, I will do that.

I get that things have changed since the 90s. I had a Lexicon MC-12 until ~2005. And a series of AVRs since then, including HK, Pioneer, and others. I get it. My HT stuff has been in storage for ~ the last 3-4 years. No question room EQ has gotten dramatically better in this time. The speakers I like and my listening preferences have not changed.

You seem to be trying to tell me that my preference is wrong. I'm not asking you to agree with it. I included it only to help get a sub that was the best fit for my preference.
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post #22 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by qguy View Post

I reckon the M&K are sealed, so coming from a sealed M&K. I would recommend 1 Rythmik F12 or F15HP (or go ported for if you want more spl due to the size of the room) as a pair is over your budget then add one more in the future. I had an older M&K in the past and the Rythmik ran circles around it. The Rythmik are well regarded for music and is servo controlled
Thanks. Yeah, sealed M&K. It's an adequate sub. Not denigrating M&K at all. This one is just ok.

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post #23 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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That is quite the large room you got there

22 x 28 x 8 = 4900 cu. ft and your ceiling are vaulted so that makes your room even larger.

I second the recommendation of the SVS PB-1000 or Rhythmik's LV12R. I am willing to bet though that the Rhytmik might suit you better.

Thanks to all for the recommendations. And yeah, I've got a lot of air to fill up with sound. Will go take a look at the SVS and Rhyhtmik.

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post #24 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 02:49 PM
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Thanks to all for the recommendations. And yeah, I've got a lot of air to fill up with sound. Will go take a look at the SVS and Rhyhtmik.

If you can stretch your budget a bit dual PB12 nsd's will fill your large room. If you have a set budget dual pb1000s will not disappoint. I would explore svs first because of their free 45 day trail.
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post #25 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 02:58 PM
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Thanks to all for the recommendations. And yeah, I've got a lot of air to fill up with sound. Will go take a look at the SVS and Rhyhtmik.

Rippy, looking at your wants, I think you may be served by more of a pro style solution. Something like this JBL 3635 will give you a ton of effortless output above 30hz. The ID stuff you are looking at make serious concessions to be as low tuned as they are. Nothing wrong with that, that's what most of the market here is.

Only problem here is that you're going to have to supply an amp. 300 watts is more than enough. Something tells me you may have one squirreled away. smile.gif

A sub like this will produce clean sound above 30 hz at a much higher level than the others you are looking at, which translates into it mostly loafing at normal levels.

I haven't heard this particular sub, and it is their least expensive one. I do have a couple 4645c and they are very nice. None of these are "pretty" but there it is.

What is the model on your HK? I only recently got away from those.

Good Luck.
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post #26 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RippyD View Post

N

I'll live with the HK processor I have today and go from there. I get that it's not new and could be improved. Given everything I've heard, my preference is still Logic 7 processing. I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying it's my preference. I get that there is far better room correction available. For now, I won't have that. I'm going to focus on getting up and running and some room treatment first.

I could be wrong but I dont think Logic-7 is room correction, it is just simulated surround sound like Pro-Logic. I had it on my Hk why back 1999-2000 somewhere in that time frame.
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post #27 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 03:31 PM
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I could be wrong but I dont think Logic-7 is room correction, it is just simulated surround sound like Pro-Logic. I had it on my Hk why back 1999-2000 somewhere in that time frame.

Harman's eq was called Ezset/EQ. and not worth a whole lot IMO. The cool thing about those receivers (which doesn't mean much now), was that you could digitize the 7.1 inputs and apply bass management.

OTOH there are many people who preferred Logic-7 for surround processing. It was very flexible and did sound nice.
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Originally Posted by RippyD View Post

You seem to be trying to tell me that my preference is wrong.

You asked me a question and I answered your question. At no time did I ever intimate your preference was wrong.

I'm sure what ever you choose, you'll be very happy with but understand, when one asks opinions and questions of others online, not everybody is going tell you what you want to read.
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post #29 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 04:36 PM
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Diy si 18's ported 32hz. One pro audio amp of your choice!! (If thAts to much bass just lean over and tap the gain knob down a notch)

Topic DONE!
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post #30 of 82 Old 01-28-2014, 04:59 PM
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The op doesn't want deep bass, but needs a lot of output and good mid bass to reach and blend with his speakers, so a couple of these should be fine.

http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/sub-1500-15-150-watt-powered-subwoofer.html
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Svs Sb1000 12 Inch 300 Watt Powered Subwoofer , Svs Sb2000 , Rythmik Audio Lv12r , Rythmik
Gear in this thread - Sb1000 by PriceGrabber.com

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