XS30 or FV15HP - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 01-29-2014, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Will be getting a new sub in the upcoming weeks. I have hardwood floors and 2500 cubic ft or so. The living room (were the sub will go) is open to the kitchen and hallway. I can get the XS30 for $200 less shipped compared the the FV15HP. Looking to spend between $1000-$1400. Thanks

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post #2 of 26 Old 01-29-2014, 11:55 AM
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Given the choice, I would probably go with the Rythmik. Either way you can't go wrong.
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post #3 of 26 Old 01-29-2014, 11:56 AM
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+1 to the FV15HP, given the choice and the 2,500 cu.ft. and open (not sealed) space.
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post #4 of 26 Old 01-29-2014, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks.....was leaning toward the FV15HP.

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post #5 of 26 Old 01-29-2014, 12:05 PM
 
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It takes a bit less than two and a half XS30s to equal the output of a single FV15HP but depending on room gain, a XS30 can successfully dig into the more desirable single Hz digits.

Multiple subwoofer purchases aside, a single FV15HP is an excellent choice. We have a pair of FV15HPs in a 3300^3 room that opens to large kitchen and other ancillary spaces. I have a thing for the XS30 but it would take five XS30s to whoop the output of two FV15HPs. FWIW, with two FV15HPs, our room measures down to 11Hz.

The point, I love both the FV15HP and the XS30 and like a spouse, in the end, one has to make a choice. In my opinion, the FV15HP is the price/performance monster but two XS30s ain't a bad way to go either.
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post #6 of 26 Old 01-29-2014, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

It takes a bit less than two and a half XS30s to equal the output of a single FV15HP but depending on room gain, a XS30 can successfully dig into the more desirable single Hz digits.

Multiple subwoofer purchases aside, a single FV15HP is an excellent choice. We have a pair of FV15HPs in a 3300^3 room that opens to large kitchen and other ancillary spaces. I have a thing for the XS30 but it would take five XS30s to whoop the output of two FV15HPs. FWIW, with two FV15HPs, our room measures down to 11Hz.

The point, I love both the FV15HP and the XS30 and like a spouse, in the end, one has to make a choice. In my opinion, the FV15HP is the price/performance monster but two XS30s ain't a bad way to go either.

Doesn't the XS30 output beat the FV15HP above 20-60? And that's where it counts, I would love to see a shoot out between a rythmik sub to the XS30 to see how close the sound quality of the PSA matches to the Rythmik.

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post #7 of 26 Old 01-29-2014, 03:59 PM
 
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I don't have a full set of measurements for the XS30 as Data-Bass only has a full set for the FV15HP. We have our FV15HPs setup in one port mode:

...............................................12.5.....16.0.....20.0.....25.0.....31.5.....40.0....50.0.....63.0....80.0...100.0...125.0.....Hz

Rythmik Audio, FV15HP (1 port)...98.5...104.0...108.3...111.7...115.3...117.8...118.0...117.9...117.8...117.6...117.2.....dB

.................................(2 ports)...89.8...102.1...108.1...113.1...117.0...119.5...119.1...118.8...118.4...118.2...118.1.....dB

My concern is the lower octaves as in the case of these subs, a pair, banging away at full reference, the mid-bass takes care of itself. It would take five XS30s to equal what two FV15HPs can do in the lower octaves where the rumble factor is found; 11.0Hz to 20Hz and that's the performance point I was worried about. If I could have afforded better, I would have gone with a pair of JTR Cap S2s as they dig deeper with more authority but the money was in the stars and not down here on Earth where the rest of us financial mortals reside.

A point not discussed often enough is the benefit of the Direct Servo Technology and the extra EQ'g benefit of the PEQ the FV15HP is equipped with. Made a "HUGE" difference in my ability to successfully EQ the acoustics in our room.

Regarding the lower octave, the best I can offer is the first couple of posts in the ULF thread.

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post #8 of 26 Old 01-29-2014, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustABrah View Post

Doesn't the XS30 output beat the FV15HP above 20-60? And that's where it counts, I would love to see a shoot out between a rythmik sub to the XS30 to see how close the sound quality of the PSA matches to the Rythmik.

It's more towards 30hz and up the XS30 has about twice the output of a FV15HP. If the OP was using the sub for mostly music and wanted more output I would suggest the XS30 simply based on that it has a lot more output about 30hz. But if its more for movie use I'd tend to agree with others and suggest the FV15HP.

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post #9 of 26 Old 01-29-2014, 08:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

It's more towards 30hz and up the XS30 has about twice the output of a FV15HP.

I must have missed that memo. Not trying to be a Richard Cranium, do you have any measurements we can use to compare to those I posted from Data-Bass?
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post #10 of 26 Old 01-29-2014, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I must have missed that memo. Not trying to be a Richard Cranium, do you have any measurements we can use to compare to those I posted from Data-Bass?

From 40-63hz the XS30 hits 122dB, the FV15HP in single port mode is what 118dB?

Sorry I should have said above 40hz the XS30 at max output would have noticeably higher output, not really twice the output.

I still think the OP would be better off with a FV15HP.

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post #11 of 26 Old 01-29-2014, 08:42 PM
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Bee, when are you finally going to post some pictures of your subs? I think you've had them long enough by now. wink.gif

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post #12 of 26 Old 01-30-2014, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I must have missed that memo. Not trying to be a Richard Cranium, do you have any measurements we can use to compare to those I posted from Data-Bass?

Even without measurements, you would expect the XS30 to clean up as you moved away from the port tune of the 15. All things being equal, 2 drivers will produce twice what one driver will.
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post #13 of 26 Old 01-30-2014, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

From 40-63hz the XS30 hits 122dB, the FV15HP in single port mode is what 118dB?

Sorry I should have said above 40hz the XS30 at max output would have noticeably higher output, not really twice the output.

I still think the OP would be better off with a FV15HP.

I thought every 3db meant double the output. so a 4db edge should more than double. Or is my math off?
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post #14 of 26 Old 01-30-2014, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

Even without measurements, you would expect the XS30 to clean up as you moved away from the port tune of the 15. All things being equal, 2 drivers will produce twice what one driver will.
That depends on the driver.
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I thought every 3db meant double the output. so a 4db edge should more than double. Or is my math off?

A 3dB gain is double the power, but to double the amplitude (what is normally meant by 'output' around here), you need a 6 dB increase.
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post #15 of 26 Old 01-30-2014, 06:01 AM
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Purple rain: Out of the 2 choices you gave I'd go with the FV15HP.

Have you thought about dual subs and are 2 subs possible for you??? If so for your price range I'd recommend 2 SVS PB2000's for $1499 shipped or 2 PB12 NSD's $1299 shipped.

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post #16 of 26 Old 01-30-2014, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

Purple rain: Out of the 2 choices you gave I'd go with the FV15HP.

Have you thought about dual subs and are 2 subs possible for you??? If so for your price range I'd recommend 2 SVS PB2000's for $1499 shipped or 2 PB12 NSD's $1299 shipped.

1.....with my layout, one is it.

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post #17 of 26 Old 01-30-2014, 06:20 AM
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Ok that's fine, not everyone has the room or ability for 2 subs. So my choice would be FV15HP.

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post #18 of 26 Old 01-30-2014, 07:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Bee, when are you finally going to post some pictures of your subs? I think you've had them long enough by now. wink.gif

We finally have a camera so I'll start working on some images. Yes, you're correct, I having been lagging on the subwoofer porn. tongue.gif
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post #19 of 26 Old 01-30-2014, 07:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I thought every 3db meant double the output. so a 4db edge should more than double. Or is my math off?

Twisted, not off.

To increase output by 3dB, one must double their amplification.

Twice the perceive loudness, takes 10dB so one needs about 10.6 times as much amplification.

...........3dB > 6dB > 9dB > 10dB

10w > 20w > 40w > 80w > 106.666w

(anybody is welcome to correct the fast math in my head)

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post #20 of 26 Old 01-30-2014, 07:44 AM
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Here is a interesting read..

# 1 Subwoofers have an RMS rating
Speakers actually have a very complex thermal compression relationship and certainly can not be quantified by just one or two numbers typically called RMS and Program or Peak. Because voice coils in traditional drivers are inherently resistors, any amount of voltage generates some amount of heat which then adversely changes the resistance and properties of the speaker. This is the principle of thermal compression: As the voice coil heats up, the resistance changes and the efficiency and performance of the driver decrease until the point of maximum thermal compression. There are some unique types of materials that have a close to zero temperature coefficient and of course there is also superconducting metals that operate at subzero temperatures with no indications of any sort of resistance. In theory, only these types of materials would have no thermal compression, but they are not employed or very practical yet. Copper and Aluminum are still the two most widely used materials for voice coils. Both copper and aluminum heat up considerably and the resistance changes as a function temperature, and there lies the problem, therefore a discrete RMS scalar value is entirely inappropriate.

Under heavy use, the TSP parameters can shift as much as 35% and in a generally un-favored direction. (higher Qts, lower sensitivity). The common ultra high RMS ratings we see of large and expensive subwoofers are at best marketing ploys to make the driver seem far more worthy than it is, or in fact they are really intended to give the customer an idea of what type of amplifier to buy. The fact is, even the highest “RMS” rated subwoofers in the world in excess of 5 digit figures will begin to compress with far less power than you would ever image, try only a few hundred watts! (no joke!). Now this doesn’t mean you still don’t need lots of power to reach the maximum potential of the driver. As a rule of thumb, the amplifier should be much more capable than what the driver needs on average. For example, quick short bursts will produce huge SPL’s and the voice coil will not have time to heat up as much, but longer term high power use will result in considerable performance regression if not failure from glues giving way due to heat or differences in the thermal expansion of materials around the glues. Under heavy use thermal compression limits begin to play a large part in SPL but most people are oblivious to this concept. It is true that woofers can be used well into their thermal compression state, and typically that is what occurs. As the power increases linearity, the SPL does not increase linearly. This is some form of compression, usually thermally related unless the woofer is beyond or close to xmax. In an ideal non-compression circumstance of either power, BL or otherwise, you can expect a 3dB increase every time the power is doubled. Rarely does this ever occur, in extremely compressed and dangerous states it can be less than 1dB!

As a woofers reaches its very limits, unless failure occurs there will become a point where the resistance of the voice coil is rising faster than the power going into the subwoofer. When the resistance doubles as the power doubles then absolute thermal compression has set in. In practice you can’t actually increase the power from the amplifier because most amplifiers start to produce less power as the resistance increases because almost every car, home and pro audio amplifier is a constant voltage source rather than a constant current source. So in a way this phenomenon is a self limited occurrence that accidentally works to protect the driver. However, running the driver at or near the maximum thermal compression limit will likely result in rapid failure. Ultimately, thermal compression is a very large but unavoidable shortcoming of mass controlled transducers. Likely, compliance controlled transducers, or rather subsonic transducers are not limited by their thermal properties as much, but rather their compliance or linear limits (xmax). It is believed by a few experts in the field that thermal compression plays a much greater role in linearity and distortion than we know of, but it’s rarely discussed.
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post #21 of 26 Old 01-30-2014, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

That depends on the driver.

Can you give me example of a driver where this wouldn't be true?
Quote:
A 3dB gain is double the power, but to double the amplitude (what is normally meant by 'output' around here), you need a 6 dB increase.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that.
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

It is believed by a few experts in the field that thermal compression plays a much greater role in linearity and distortion than we know of, but it’s rarely discussed.

Thanks for the post. A big thumbs up for the posting effort.

What I find interesting, it seems most max subwoofer conversations revolve around a single, intentionally over-driven subwoofer as opposed to a properly equipped home theater sound system that doesn't compress at continuous reference level playback.

...confused.gif
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post #23 of 26 Old 01-30-2014, 10:39 AM
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I have a single subwoofer in my home theater.  It is equipped with a light that indicates if the sub is being driven beyond its capability.  I typically listen to music and movies no louder than -15 on my AVR.  At this level, movies are too loud for my wife to enjoy.  With my sub running several dB hot, I can turn up bass heavy electronica music to 0 on my AVR, and my limiter never lights up on the sub.

 

For me, having a single sub does not seem to be any sort of sacrifice.  In fact, i don't even have a good placement option for a second sub.  Maybe others have this situation as well?  For me, one sub is optimal, and properly equipped.


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post #24 of 26 Old 01-30-2014, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Thanks for the post. A big thumbs up for the posting effort.

What I find interesting, it seems most max subwoofer conversations revolve around a single, intentionally over-driven subwoofer as opposed to a properly equipped home theater sound system that doesn't compress at continuous reference level playback.

...confused.gif

Indeed! But since I have been trying to wrap my thinking around something else, (vtf) no not the subwoofer tongue.gif but voltage transfer function. I couldn’t help but notice the conversation and thought it might be worth while posting. It was not a nit-pick aimed at you Bee.

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post #25 of 26 Old 01-30-2014, 01:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

It was not a nit-pick aimed at you Bee.

Didn't see it as such. It's something I've noticed lately, how tests are geared towards single, over-driven subwoofers, intentionally driven to distortion as opposed to measuring output from a balanced system, designed for the output levels expected of it.

(my problem, everybody wants to pick my nits but nobody wants to take any with them)

...tongue.gif

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post #26 of 26 Old 01-30-2014, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


Didn't see it as such. It's something I've noticed lately, how tests are geared towards single, over-driven subwoofers, intentionally driven to distortion as opposed to measuring output from a balanced system, designed for the output levels expected of it.

(my problem, everybody wants to pick my nits but nobody wants to take any with them)

...tongue.gif

-


I think its a case of determining what a subwoofer's maximum capabilities are, not necessarily that they will be constantly driven to their absolute max potential at all times.  By measuring its distortion limited maximum output, it tells you what kind of result you will get when driven to moderate levels. 

 

If subs were only tested to say....100 dB max SPL, then people would not know if they should purchase a PB2000 for $800 or a Triax for $3000, as it would be hard to tell the difference at this level.


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