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post #31 of 55 Old 01-31-2014, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I'm going to ignore the nonsense posted previously in this thread and try to address the "original post."

Dual subs will provide more consistent frequency response across a larger listening area. A single sub can be EQ'd for a flat frequency response, but that EQ will only apply to a single listening position. That EQ will likely make most other listening positions worse.

Dual subs will add headroom, and that headroom can be used to lower the gain of both subs. This puts both subs into a more linear, lower distortion output range. IOW, they'll SOUND better.

These differences will be realized no matter how large the listening space, (assuming normal sized residential spaces.)
It's not just about "room gain." It's also about the volume of air to be moved. The entire volume of air in the open space needs to be moved in order to "pressurize" the space with sound pressure. A single 12" sub will need to work very hard to pressurize a large space. Adding multiple, larger drivers has the potential to move a lot more air than a single smaller driver.

If one only desires moderate levels, and one only has a single listening position, one can get away with a single sub in many instances. OTOH, if one desires high quality, high SPL bass, with deep extension, in a large space, it generally requires multiple, quality subwoofers.

Craig

So say if I have a 1000 cu ft room, and one sub, lets say a SVS PB2000, will give me nice tactile bass. Does that mean that if I move into a 10000 cu ft room, I need 10 PB2000s to achieve the same tactile bass I was getting in the 1000 cu ft room? Would I be able to get away with less subwoofers (say 4) and still have the same amount of tactile bass as in the 1000 cu ft room if the volume is at a sane level?
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post #32 of 55 Old 01-31-2014, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowerFE View Post

So say if I have a 1000 cu ft room, and one sub, lets say a SVS PB2000, will give me nice tactile bass. Does that mean that if I move into a 10000 cu ft room, I need 10 PB2000s to achieve the same tactile bass I was getting in the 1000 cu ft room? Would I be able to get away with less subwoofers (say 4) and still have the same amount of tactile bass as in the 1000 cu ft room if the volume is at a sane level?

Impossible to answer. It depends on room construction, room furnishings and other things. No reason to use small subs for that size room. That size room takes some 18 or 21 in. subs and a change of the rest of the gear.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

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post #33 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 03:25 AM
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Thanks to the OP for this thread.
Unfortunately, I am currently shopping for new subwoofage now due to my current 12 year old sub has died. (Velodyne).
Thanks to BeeMan458, I have leaned about Rythmic Audio's FV15HP
My room is quite large
It 29' x 21' x 8'
The left rear of the room is open to the kitchen which is 12' x 10'
I think I will go with dual subs after reading lots of threads on the subject so far.

Now I ask this question.
What would a single JTR Orbit shifter add to this subject?
Would 2x FV15HP's still produce a smoother FR, compared to 1 OS?
My budget is MAX $4000
2x FV15HP is only $2410
I could go to 3x FV15HP, but finding a home for 3 subs in my room could be an issue.
And, what about subs that are "dual" subs, but in one cabinet, such as the JTR Cap S2?
I need to do something fast, because my HT is down at the moment.

EDIT: I have started a new thread for my dilemma HERE

Steve

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post #34 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 03:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowerFE View Post

Does that mean that if I move into a 10000 cu ft room, I need 10 PB2000s to achieve the same tactile bass I was getting in the 1000 cu ft room? Would I be able to get away with less subwoofers (say 4) and still have the same amount of tactile bass as in the 1000 cu ft room if the volume is at a sane level?

Have you stopped by the ULF thread that I recommended? There's a lot of good information to be found in the first couple of posts that directly answer your above hypothetical situation.
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post #35 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Have you stopped by the ULF thread that I recommended? There's a lot of good information to be found in the first couple of posts that directly answer your above hypothetical situation.
I did. and the Excel spreadsheet is a great guide to use.

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post #36 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 04:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post

I did. and the Excel spreadsheet is a great guide to use.

In my opinion, based on posted empirical data found at Data-Bass and extrapolations found on the ULF thread, large rooms demand a two subwoofer solution and a pair of FV15HP, hands down, is the price/performance, Big Dog winner.

My goals are, distortion free, continuous THX Ultra2, reference level playback SPL.

(when meeting the above, in my opinion, the individual has a subwoofer system worth a Tinker's Damn)

And, if somebody is happy with less of a system than what I defined above, I'm happy for them and encourage them to pursue the subwoofer goal of their choice.

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post #37 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowerFE View Post

So say if I have a 1000 cu ft room, and one sub, lets say a SVS PB2000, will give me nice tactile bass. Does that mean that if I move into a 10000 cu ft room, I need 10 PB2000s to achieve the same tactile bass I was getting in the 1000 cu ft room?
No. Assuming the 1000 cu ft room measures 125 square feet it may be 12.5 x 10 feet. If the 10,000 cu ft room is 1250 square feet, measuring 31 x 40 feet, the dB loss based on the inverse square rule means that the larger room might be at the most 12dB lower than the smaller room with one sub. Four subs are 6dB louder than one. It would take four subs versus one to reach the same level in the larger room versus the smaller room.
Of more significance would be the effect on cabin gain. The smaller room with a 12.5 foot maximum dimension would have cabin gain below 45Hz, so a sealed sub with an f3 of 40 Hz or so would be best. The larger room with a 40 foot maximum dimension would only have cabin gain below 14Hz, which practically speaking means it will have no cabin, so ported subs with an f3 no higher than 25Hz would work best.

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post #38 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 07:08 AM
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Since your budget allows, I think you should possibly consider the JTR Orbit Shifter.  It is in a totally different class than even dual Rythmiks.  Your space is close to 6,000 cu. ft.  Dual Rythmik's would still have substantially less output than a single Orbit.  I suppose it comes down to how much bass you want, and if you prefer the possible smoother response that dual subs would give you.

 

From what I have been able to see, the Orbit is going to be flat down to around 7 Hz..again, just a totally different league than the Rythmik.  I think this choice definitely merits the opinions of some more seasoned avs members, but I lean towards the Orbit if I were in your situation.


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post #39 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 08:17 AM
 
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"Official JTR Orbit Shifter Subwoofer Thread"

JTR Orbit Shifter. ($3,299.00)

Vs

A pair of FV15HPs.

Yes, the OS is definitely in a class by itself but it's not house friendly as it's a commercial style build and there's still the problem of dual sub vs single sub smoothing issues. In my opinion, the better option is a pair of JTR S2s but then there's the cost factor and if buying one, having to deal with the ever present smoothing issues.

Our compromise was a pair of FV15HPs, a Denon AVR4520CI which is equipped with Audyssey MultEQ XT32/SubEQ HT (for XT32/SubEQ HT) and a Denon DBT-3313UDCI (more dynamic range) all for less than the price of a pair of S2s. One sub is placed nearfield.

Disclosure: If we had the deep pockets, I would have done the same above but with a pair of S2s. cool.gif

It's all going be dependent on how deep one's pockets are (we went on credit card) and what one's final goal is. Our goal was continuous reference level play yet most of our listening is at -15dB MVC. This way distortion is "never" part of the consideration as it can be if one goes with a single, not properly dialed in subwoofer.
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post #40 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

"Official JTR Orbit Shifter Subwoofer Thread"

JTR Orbit Shifter. ($3,299.00)

Vs

A pair of FV15HPs.

Yes, the OS is definitely in a class by itself but it's not house friendly as it's a commercial style build and there's still the problem of dual sub vs single sub smoothing issues. In my opinion, the better option is a pair of JTR S2s but then there's the cost factor and if buying one, having to deal with the ever present smoothing issues.

 

 

 

I did consider these three parameters with my suggestion for obxdiver. 

 

Size:  He states that he has enough room in his corner, where he will have the sub, to fit any sub.  Size was not an issue. 

 

Budget:  $4000.  Plenty of room for the Orbit Shifter, which has double the output of the S2 above 25Hz.  Budget will not allow dual S2's.

 

Room smoothing:  Budget won't allow for dual S2's, and dual Rythmik's are drastically inferior in performance(not knocking the Rythmik's, they are an insanely good value imo).  This is the area in which the op will have to compromise.  But to me, the increase in performance is so drastic that it outweighs the benefit of duals.

 

Also, from what I can tell, the Orbit Shifter benefits greatly from corner placement, so ideal for his room.  I am of the opinion that this is simply one of the most flawless sub designs in terms of output, extension, distortion, and efficiency if one has the budget and space to allow for it.


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post #41 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

From what I have been able to see, the Orbit is going to be flat down to around 7 Hz..
If the room is small enough to realize cabin gain from 25Hz the OS LF/LFU will get to the single digits. That requires a longest room dimension of about 23 feet and a tight room. With a larger room single digit response would require using EQ to realize it, and every 6dB of EQ doubles the driver excursion and quadruples power demand of the amp.
Quote:
the Orbit Shifter benefits greatly from corner placement,
It demands it, as do all horn subs, otherwise response below about 40Hz will suffer.

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post #42 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 08:52 AM
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I measured my corner, and yes it will easily accept the Orbit Shifter LFU.
There are 2 or them and I would prefer the one that stands up at 50" tall by 32" deep. (Orbit Shifter LFU)
The JTR site has no picture of that one....although found on Google images.

The other one (Orbit Shifter LF) lays flat and is 45" deep. That one could be too much of a space hog.
They do have a picture of this one.

My pockets are deep enough for 1 OS or 1 Cap S2, or 3 Rythmic's, but not 2x Cap S2's...I wish. That is pushing $7000 after shipping.

Steve

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post #43 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 09:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post

My pockets are deep enough for 1 OS or 1 Cap S2, or 3 Rythmic's, but not 2x Cap S2's...I wish. That is pushing $7000 after shipping.

(using room measurements of 29' x 21' x 8')

My thinking is geared toward EQ'g, Audyssey XT32/SubEQ HT and two or three subwoofers. In good conscience, I can encourage getting a system that's XT32 capable, has at minimum, a pair of FV15HPs with a near term future eye on a third. My expectation, with three FV15HPs, in a 4800^3 space with adjacent spaces, expectedly, you'll get the output/room response that we have and you can expect 11Hz or 12Hz performance. That's going give you at least ~99.5% of what's been mastered into blu-ray sound tracks.

As to S2s or OSs, I can't say as I've not used or heard either of these output monsters, but I can say that my thinking is geared toward sealed. Because of this, due to your stated budget, I would encourage going with a single S2 and a XT32 capable AVR with an eye on a second S2 in the very near future. I would expect a pair of S2s to give you single digits and reference level play down to 10Hz or better. I'll let those who know more on this issue to comment as getting down to true 5Hz/7Hz performance, is a whole new level of esoteric effort that I'm not familiar with.

Personally, if you don't have XT32/SubEQ HT capability, I will stress the need to acquire an AVR with this capability. Yes, it's worth it. Yes, it makes a difference. And if single digits is your goal, I would also encourage getting a S2/XT32/SubEQ HT AVR with plans to add a second S2 as soon as fiscally possible. With XT32/SubEQ HT and a pair of S2's, expectedly, everything in your room will be a rocking-and-a-rolling close to single digit, reference level play.

(and that's a wrap)

...tongue.gif

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post #44 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 10:29 AM
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Thank you all so much for the great input.
I really like the idea of having multiple subs and being able to place them in various places around the room.
I am still considering all of my options. I disassembled my Velodyne amplifier and found that all of the capacitors are bulging so I have ordered new capacitors to see if I can fix the old sub
I still will purchase new subwoofage even if the old one can be fixed with the capacitors. However the Orbit Shifter is very enticing.
Upgrading my Lexicon processor is really out of the question to a new type receiver with Audyssey XT32/SubEQ HT at this time.

Steve

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post #45 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post

Thank you all so much for the great input.
I really like the idea of having multiple subs and being able to place them in various places around the room.
I am still considering all of my options. I disassembled my Velodyne amplifier and found that all of the capacitors are bulging so I have ordered new capacitors to see if I can fix the old sub
I still will purchase new subwoofage even if the old one can be fixed with the capacitors. However the Orbit Shifter is very enticing.
Upgrading my Lexicon processor is really out of the question to a new type receiver with Audyssey XT32/SubEQ HT at this time.

If the repair of the plate amp is not successful, you can consider mounting a new plate amp in its place. It isn't terribly expensive nor difficult.
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post #46 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 10:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post

Upgrading my Lexicon processor is really out of the question to a new type receiver with Audyssey XT32/SubEQ HT at this time.

eek.gif...Reasonable or unreasonable that Lexicon stuff is way outside our budget, . eek.gif

A Denon flagship AVR4520CI is about as high up the food chain as we can go. How well do you like the Lexicon EQ system?
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post #47 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 10:56 AM
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My Lexicon is the older DC-2, but specially modified by Shawn Fogg to add the 8-channel analog inputs as I have no HDMI inputs for HD audio.
It has no EQ for the sub but still an amazing legacy processor.


I have downloaded and started playing the REW software.
What MIC do u guys use to measure the freq response?
I have a cheap web cam hooked up and i know that aint cuttin it.
That stuff is all new to me.

Steve

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post #48 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

If the repair of the plate amp is not successful, you can consider mounting a new plate amp in its place. It isn't terribly expensive nor difficult.

I'm not sure if you are talking about a parts express type plate amp or a new Velo amp but, the HGS is a servo sub and really needs that particular amp. Velo does do in house repairs fairly reasonably.

If you can change the caps and fix it, more the better. They did have problems with the caps. This HGS did more than bulge.


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post #49 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 11:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post

I have downloaded and started playing the REW software.
What MIC do u guys use to measure the freq response?

Two ways to go. If you have a laptop or the PC is close to your listening position, you can go with a USB measuring microphone.

Calibrated, allows one to measure the lower octave.

One needs a cable to run from the laptop to the stereo RCA connectors on the front plate to get the REW sweep signal to the pre/pro and the subs.

If one doesn't have a computer within the length of the USB cord, they have to go with a phantom amplifier and appropriate microphone which is what we had to do. A bit more trouble and then the additional expense of the added patch cords and phantom amplifier.
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post #50 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Tack View Post

I'm not sure if you are talking about a parts express type plate amp or a new Velo amp but, the HGS is a servo sub and really needs that particular amp. Velo does do in house repairs fairly reasonably.

If you can change the caps and fix it, more the better. They did have problems with the caps. This HGS did more than bulge.


Yes, one of mine looks slightly better that that one that is popped in your picture.
The top of it has separated from the rest of the can. Its the one closest to the speaker connector.

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post #51 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Two ways to go. If you have a laptop or the PC is close to your listening position, you can go with a USB measuring microphone.

Calibrated, allows one to measure the lower octave.

One needs a cable to run from the laptop to the stereo RCA connectors on the front plate to get the REW sweep signal to the pre/pro and the subs.

If one doesn't have a computer within the length of the USB cord, they have to go with a phantom amplifier and appropriate microphone which is what we had to do. A bit more trouble and then the additional expense of the added patch cords and phantom amplifier.
This Windows 7 Pro 64-Bit PC is in the same room as my HT. 6 foot from my seat.
I am currently sending optical digital audio to the Lexicon and the subs are fed by the Lexicon, so can I run the sweep from REW via optical and let the Lexi send it to the subs?
I can also send analog audio from PC directly to the sub if needed.

Thanks for all your help Bee
I will look into a new MIC as well.

Steve

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post #52 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 01:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post

Thanks for all your help Bee

...biggrin.gif

An addition, based on what you posted, as I posted earlier, use some of your budget money to acquire XT32 capability so you'll have XT32/SubEQ HT and HDMI connections as that's what's happening today.

(just saying, it reads like it's time for an AVR upgrade)

Get the Denon AVR4520CI and a FV15HP. In a bit, add a second one and later still, add a third one. You'll thank me when you have the second FV15HP up and running.

wink.gif

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post #53 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 04:20 PM
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If you scale a $1,0000 budget 2 ×$500 subs will sound better than a single sub?
Anyone have a PS1200V4 laying around?
Why not 3 just to throw a wrench into it..
Now with a $1500 budget...

Play nice boys!
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post #54 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post

My Lexicon is the older DC-2, but specially modified by Shawn Fogg to add the 8-channel analog inputs as I have no HDMI inputs for HD audio.
It has no EQ for the sub but still an amazing legacy processor.


I have downloaded and started playing the REW software.
What MIC do u guys use to measure the freq response?
I have a cheap web cam hooked up and i know that aint cuttin it.
That stuff is all new to me.

Just add a SVS AS EQ1. There is one for sale here on AVS and I think one is still available on E-Bay.
It had dual Sub outputs as well. So the Sub out from your BD player can go to the SVS AS EQ1 .


Then you can keep your modified lexicon and Gain Audyssey.

Athanasios


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post #55 of 55 Old 02-01-2014, 08:28 PM
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Good for 2 so 2 off the 7.2 receiver 4 out?

Play nice boys!
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