Help me replace a Velodyne HGS18" Servo Controlled Sub - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 02-01-2014, 05:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi All
My 12 year old Velodyne HGS18 sub has died.
It will be too expensive to repair, so I am shopping for some new subwoofage.
My room is 29 x 21 x 8
The left rear of the room opens to the kitchen which is another 12' x 10'
The current sub location is in the right front corner of the room.
This is a pretty large corner space, big enough for most any sub.

My max budget is ~$4000
Looking for suggestions
Is it possible with this budget and room size to get to 10Hz or below?
I want to feel tactical punch on the couch which is in the middle of the room.
I want to feel the F***ing Irene scene of Black Hawk Down
The plane roll of Flight of the Phoenix

Some subs I have read about are:
2x Rythmic Audio FV15HP (maybe 3)
1x JTR Orbit Shifter
1x JTR Captivator S2
1x PSA Triax

I also do still own an M & K MX350 THX sub.
However, this sub does not go very deep, but I still do have it connected. and can continue using it.
Thanks for any info you experts can provide.

Here is a picture of my setup
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post #2 of 20 Old 02-01-2014, 08:22 AM
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Orbit Shifter, 4000W RMS

Dual Rythmiks:  1200W RMS

 

If you have the budget for it, it is not even a fair comparison, imo.

 

~~Output Capablility: (calculated from 4000w, not 7200w peak) 133db average above 25hz, outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter 120db at 20hz, outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter 103db at 10hz, outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter 145db average above 25hz, eighth space (corner loaded), 1 meter 132db at 20hz, outdoors, eighth space (corner loaded), 1 meter 115db at 10hz, outdoors, eighth space (corner loaded), 1 meter In room numbers will be even higher than the eighth space (corner loaded) calculations.

 

Could not find official CEA2010 data with a  quick glance, but this thing looks to be amongst the best performing subs in production.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

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post #3 of 20 Old 02-01-2014, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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bear123
Thanks for those stats on the OS.
How do feel comparing the Cap S2 with the OS?

With the OS weighing in at 195 lbs, vs 120lbs for the Cap S2, it would be much easier to handle the Cap S2 by myself.

Also, a question about XLR inputs.
Can I use an RCA to XLR cable to run subs with XLR only inputs...LIKE THIS?
My Lexicon only has 1x RCA Sub out.
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post #4 of 20 Old 02-01-2014, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post

bear123
Thanks for those stats on the OS.
How do feel comparing the Cap S2 with the OS?

With the OS weighing in at 195 lbs, vs 120lbs for the Cap S2, it would be much easier to handle the Cap S2 by myself.

Also, a question about XLR inputs.
Can I use an RCA to XLR cable to run subs with XLR only inputs...LIKE THIS?
My Lexicon only has 1x RCA Sub out.


Well ob, I would take weight out of the equation.  This is a large($), somewhat permanent purchase.  You have one ideal placement option in the corner of the room.  If needed, hire a helper to assist with placement.  Don't compromise on your ideal sub due to a one time issue of weight.  That is my opinion.

 

How does the S2 compare to the OS?  From what I can tell, the S2 has twice the output of the OS under 20Hz, but the OS has twice the output of the S2 above 25 Hz(this is what you can hear, and to me, is 95% of your bass).  However, I do not feel like you will be lacking in low frequency output with the OS, it has amazing output down into the single digits, with incredible output over 25Hz to help fill your huge space.  So given that difference, the choice is yours.

 

RMK is a member of the forums that has dual OS, I would definitely recommend shooting him a pm about the issue, many of the subwoofer freaks on these forums have heard both in person.  I can't offer you any first hand type experience like they could.  But I have seen several members stating that they would actually take the OS over even dual S2's.

 

As far as inputs, I am not qualified to answer your question on that matter.

 

Maybe even someone like Bill Fitzmaurice could offer some expert advice on what the pros and cons of a folded horn vs a standard sealed sub setup would be for your space.  I suspect the horn is the better option due to the size of the space, and I think the horn benefits greatly from corner placement, although not sure if any more so than other designs.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

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post #5 of 20 Old 02-02-2014, 05:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post


Well ob, I would take weight out of the equation.  This is a large($), somewhat permanent purchase.  You have one ideal placement option in the corner of the room.  If needed, hire a helper to assist with placement.  Don't compromise on your ideal sub due to a one time issue of weight.  That is my opinion.

How does the S2 compare to the OS?  From what I can tell, the S2 has twice the output of the OS under 20Hz, but the OS has twice the output of the S2 above 25 Hz(this is what you can hear, and to me, is 95% of your bass).  However, I do not feel like you will be lacking in low frequency output with the OS, it has amazing output down into the single digits, with incredible output over 25Hz to help fill your huge space.  So given that difference, the choice is yours.

RMK is a member of the forums that has dual OS, I would definitely recommend shooting him a pm about the issue, many of the subwoofer freaks on these forums have heard both in person.  I can't offer you any first hand type experience like they could.  But I have seen several members stating that they would actually take the OS over even dual S2's.

As far as inputs, I am not qualified to answer your question on that matter.

Maybe even someone like Bill Fitzmaurice could offer some expert advice on what the pros and cons of a folded horn vs a standard sealed sub setup would be for your space.  I suspect the horn is the better option due to the size of the space, and I think the horn benefits greatly from corner placement, although not sure if any more so than other designs.
Thanks again for the input bear123
I am leaning towards the Orbit Shifter LFU (Low Freq Upright)
Now, my problem is that I can't get hold of anyone at JTR.
The phone number seems to be a cell phone that says "Currently unavailable" when I call it.
I am also not getting any replies to 2 emails sent over the last week.

So I want to buy, but can't at the moment.
I will continue to try this week.
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post #6 of 20 Old 02-02-2014, 05:20 AM
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Good luck.  Keep us posted what you end up going with!


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

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post #7 of 20 Old 02-02-2014, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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One question
How would a Velodyne DD18+ compare to the JTR subs?
I know it is more that my budget, but have not seen anyone comparing Velodyne to these
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post #8 of 20 Old 02-02-2014, 06:31 AM
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Hey Obxd
I was in same position about 5 yrs ago–
I replaced my HGS18 with the original Seaton Submersive
Hugh upgrade
For that budget you can get latest sub HP+ and slave.
Thou either Seaton of JTR would be great

15400 Watts of Seaton Power -Quad SubMersived
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post #9 of 20 Old 02-02-2014, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post

One question
How would a Velodyne DD18+ compare to the JTR subs?
I know it is more that my budget, but have not seen anyone comparing Velodyne to these

I think they have good low frequency extension, good quality sub in a small package, four of them should approach an OS over 20Hz.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

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post #10 of 20 Old 02-02-2014, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

.....four of them should approach an OS over 20Hz.
Holy shizer...LOL
I was just asking, because there is a factory refurbished DD18+ on ebay sold by Velodyne for $4750.
But, if the OS really would be the same output as 4 DD18+ Velo's, I think you have helped my decision become easier.
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post #11 of 20 Old 02-02-2014, 06:42 AM
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What's faulty on the HGS? Amp or driver? If it's just the amp could you not convert it to passive then buy offboard amp?

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

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post #12 of 20 Old 02-02-2014, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

What's faulty on the HGS? Amp or driver? If it's just the amp could you not convert it to passive then buy offboard amp?

Long Story if u care to read.
It all started with random noises from the HGS18 sub shown HERE
At first it thought it was just the amp.
I sent that video to Velodyne support.
They told me it was the amp and to send it to them for repair at $285. I was happy at that price to have it fixed.
AFTER that video was made, it started making this sound again during a movie....as I said..this noise was random. It would come and go on its own.
One day, while the noise showed its ugly face, I reached around back and turned the sub off via the ON/OFF power switch
Waited 10 minutes.
Turned back on.
A low humming sound, like 60 Hz got louder and louder came from driver.
Then the sub started thrusting in and out violently and making sounds like a shotgun.
I immediately unplugged it.

Since then, it has never worked again.

I gave Velodyne that extra info, and they told me it was the driver itself. The accelerometer of the servo feedback was at fault and would require me to send the whole sub back to them for repair.
They said they can't ship the driver alone since vertical shipping could not be guaranteed.
If it was laid flat, it would cause the accelerometer to get out of calibration.
They quoted me $900 for the driver, $285 for amp repair.
Then, Since I am in VA and they are in CA...it would cost me over $500 for round trip shipping.

Yesterday, I took the amp out, and noticed all 6 1000uf 200V caps are bulged and 1 is split on the top, so, I have ordered 6 new caps from Newark
They will be here this week.
I will replace these 6 caps and see what happens.
Either way, I want a sub upgrade.

...That was alot of typing....tongue.giftongue.gif



tongue.gif
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post #13 of 20 Old 02-04-2014, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Orbit Shifter, 4000W RMS
Dual Rythmiks: 1200W RMS

If you have the budget for it, it is not even a fair comparison, imo.

~~Output Capablility: (calculated from 4000w, not 7200w peak) 133db average above 25hz, outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter 120db at 20hz, outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter 103db at 10hz, outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter 145db average above 25hz, eighth space (corner loaded), 1 meter 132db at 20hz, outdoors, eighth space (corner loaded), 1 meter 115db at 10hz, outdoors, eighth space (corner loaded), 1 meter In room numbers will be even higher than the eighth space (corner loaded) calculations.

Could not find official CEA2010 data with a quick glance, but this thing looks to be amongst the best performing subs in production.

Hi again bear123
I was wondering where you found the specs for the Orbit Shifter in the quote above?
I was hoping I could find these type of specs on other subs, like the CAP S2.

I am about to pull the trigger on the Orbit Shifter LFU, and want to know how other subs compare to these values.
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post #14 of 20 Old 02-04-2014, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Orbit Shifter, 4000W RMS
Dual Rythmiks:  1200W RMS

If you have the budget for it, it is not even a fair comparison, imo.

~~Output Capablility: (calculated from 4000w, not 7200w peak) 133db average above 25hz, outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter 120db at 20hz, outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter 103db at 10hz, outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter 145db average above 25hz, eighth space (corner loaded), 1 meter 132db at 20hz, outdoors, eighth space (corner loaded), 1 meter 115db at 10hz, outdoors, eighth space (corner loaded), 1 meter In room numbers will be even higher than the eighth space (corner loaded) calculations.

Could not find official CEA2010 data with a  quick glance, but this thing looks to be amongst the best performing subs in production.

I've done some math and if my math is correct, then it does seem to be a fair comparison.

Orbit Shifter:
1 meter 120dB at 20hz

FV15HP:
2 meter 107.5 dB at 20hz (CEA2010 results)
1 meter 113.5 dB at 20hz (+6dB for half the distance)
1 meter 119.5 dB at 20hz (+6dB for 2 co-located subs)
1 meter 122.5 dB at 20hz (+3dB for 3 co-located subs)


Orbit Shifter:
1 meter 133dB average above 25hz

FV15HP (at 32hz, the actual average above 25hz is probably a dB or two higher):
2 meter 117.8 dB at 32hz (CEA2010 results)
1 meter 123.8 dB at 32hz (+6dB for half the distance)
1 meter 129.8 dB at 32hz (+6dB for 2 co-located subs)
1 meter 132.8 dB at 32hz (+3dB for 3 co-located subs)


So it would seem that 2 co-located FV15HPs could nearly keep up with 1 OS at 20hz and up, and in a smaller space. The OS is 3.5x the size (volume) of an FV15HP! You could have three FV15HPs for a comparable price and still take up less space than a single OS! However, the OS would have an advantage at 10hz. The FV15HP is flat to 14hz (no idea of RMS dB), and drops like a rock beneath that. The Rythmik F25 would be an option if you want that 10hz response. Three F25s shipped would be slightly more than $4k and take up a comparable amount of room as 1 OS (that thing is HUGE). The JTR S2 would be more comparable with the F25. It sounds like Jeff at JTR would definitely give you a recommendation (if you get ahold of him).

I'm not not trying to sway you one way or the other, just pointing out that (once again, if my math is correct) the OS isn't THAT far ahead once you factor in price, size, and multiple Rythmik subs (or other subs). For sure they are all great subs.
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post #15 of 20 Old 02-04-2014, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you so much for that great info. This decision is driving me crazy.
Yes I did get a hold of Jeff at JTR and told him that I wanted to order either the orbit shifter or Cap S2.
I am leaning towards the OS.
However I am wondering if I am going to regret that decision by not having as much output below 20hz.
decisions decisions decisions
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post #16 of 20 Old 02-05-2014, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post


Hi again bear123
I was wondering where you found the specs for the Orbit Shifter in the quote above?
I was hoping I could find these type of specs on other subs, like the CAP S2.

I am about to pull the trigger on the Orbit Shifter LFU, and want to know how other subs compare to these values.

I am pretty sure it was mixed in the orbit shifter thread somewhere.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

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post #17 of 20 Old 02-05-2014, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, my 1000uf capacitors came today to replace the bulging ones in my HGS18's amp.
No Go
The sub does not play anything after replacing all 6 of them.

Also, I officially placed an order for a JTR Captivator S2 with Jeff @ JTR
I decided to go with the S2 vs. OS due to:
Cap S2 has smaller footprint (OS was a beast, and not sure I needed that much output > 25Hz)
Cap S2 is better looking than OS
Cap S2 has dual drivers vs 1 in OS
Cap S2 has +6db more output < 20Hz
Cap S2 has a removable grill ( so I can show it off...LOL)


I am now asking for recommendations on an external amp to use to power the HGS18 driver as "fatbottom" recommended in passive mode.
Anyone has some recommendations for me?
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post #18 of 20 Old 04-21-2014, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post


I gave Velodyne that extra info, and they told me it was the driver itself. The accelerometer of the servo feedback was at fault and would require me to send the whole sub back to them for repair.
They said they can't ship the driver alone since vertical shipping could not be guaranteed.
If it was laid flat, it would cause the accelerometer to get out of calibration.
They quoted me $900 for the driver, $285 for amp repair.
Then, Since I am in VA and they are in CA...it would cost me over $500 for round trip shipping.

Yesterday, I took the amp out, and noticed all 6 1000uf 200V caps are bulged and 1 is split on the top, so, I have ordered 6 new caps from Newark
They will be here this week.
I will replace these 6 caps and see what happens.
Either way, I want a sub upgrade.

...That was alot of typing....tongue.giftongue.gif



tongue.gif

This is an easy decision. If you can get this fixed and shipped for less than $1,700.00. You will have a new unit from Velodyne. That's how they operate. Think if what a new one would cost.wink.gif
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post #19 of 20 Old 04-21-2014, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post

Well, my 1000uf capacitors came today to replace the bulging ones in my HGS18's amp.
No Go
The sub does not play anything after replacing all 6 of them.

Also, I officially placed an order for a JTR Captivator S2 with Jeff @ JTR
I decided to go with the S2 vs. OS due to:
Cap S2 has smaller footprint (OS was a beast, and not sure I needed that much output > 25Hz)
Cap S2 is better looking than OS
Cap S2 has dual drivers vs 1 in OS
Cap S2 has +6db more output < 20Hz
Cap S2 has a removable grill ( so I can show it off...LOL)


I am now asking for recommendations on an external amp to use to power the HGS18 driver as "fatbottom" recommended in passive mode.
Anyone has some recommendations for me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post

Well, my 1000uf capacitors came today to replace the bulging ones in my HGS18's amp.
No Go
The sub does not play anything after replacing all 6 of them.

Also, I officially placed an order for a JTR Captivator S2 with Jeff @ JTR
I decided to go with the S2 vs. OS due to:
Cap S2 has smaller footprint (OS was a beast, and not sure I needed that much output > 25Hz)
Cap S2 is better looking than OS
Cap S2 has dual drivers vs 1 in OS
Cap S2 has +6db more output < 20Hz
Cap S2 has a removable grill ( so I can show it off...LOL)


I am now asking for recommendations on an external amp to use to power the HGS18 driver as "fatbottom" recommended in passive mode.
Anyone has some recommendations for me?

Have you measured the ohms of the woofer? For some reason I think it might be one of those high ohm woofers. Just curious since I have a hgs18 too. Never really turn it up past 1/3 volume.
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post #20 of 20 Old 04-22-2014, 02:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaby View Post

This is an easy decision. If you can get this fixed and shipped for less than $1,700.00. You will have a new unit from Velodyne. That's how they operate. Think if what a new one would cost.wink.gif
I would not let Velodyne touch it for that price.
Velodyne's are WAY over priced, and when you read the Official Velodyne thread, you read about nothing but problems with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post


Have you measured the ohms of the woofer? For some reason I think it might be one of those high ohm woofers. Just curious since I have a hgs18 too. Never really turn it up past 1/3 volume.
YES the ohms are OPEN on the highest ohm scale of the meter

I gave up on Velodead. This company will not last another 10 years.
Here is a thread of the conversion to DIY
Velodyne HGS18 to DIY
Ohh...and BTW...After this conversion to DIY, the re-built sub with iNuke3000DSP and Dayton 18" driver blows the old HGS-18 out of the water in the bass dept. ~$550 spent vs. $1700 wink.gif
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