Any opinions on SVS, Rythmik, and JL subwoofers? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 71 Old 02-01-2014, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello all, this will be my first post. I am looking to buy a sub-woofer for my setup in the up coming weeks. And as you can see from my post. I have decided to go between the SVS Sb-2000, Rythmik F12, and JL's new E-Sub.  Anyone have any thoughts on the matter? I haven't heard anyone talk about the E-sub yet. And am wondering if anyone thinks it would be worth the $2,000 price. That's more than twice the price of either the SVS or Rythmik. And I cant seem to find any DB reference on it. Anyone know how many DB it is at 20hz?

 

Yes,I know I could get the Sb13-ultra for less than the cost of the JL. But I am trying to get an idea of what I am getting for the extra $300 for the Rythmik and $1,300 for the E-sub over the $700 price of the Sb-2000.

 

For reference my current set-up is a Marantz Sr5008, Martin Logan Motion 12's and a Martin Logan Motion 8. Everything will be placed in a 1400 Sq.ft. sealed room.

 

I plan on expanding on this set-up some more. And have put some thought into it. I plan to post a subject on the matter later on so please look forward to it.

 

As for now. I am focusing on filling my missing Fq's.

 

My usage is about 70% music and 30% HT

 

Thanks

Look forward to getting to know y'all

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post #2 of 71 Old 02-01-2014, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by LeDelmo View Post

Hello all, this will be my first post. I am looking to buy a sub-woofer for my setup in the up coming weeks. And as you can see from my post. I have decided to go between the SVS Sb-2000, Rythmik F12, and JL's new E-Sub.  Anyone have any thoughts on the matter? I haven't heard anyone talk about the E-sub yet. And am wondering if anyone thinks it would be worth the $2,000 price. That's more than twice the price of either the SVS or Rythmik. And I cant seem to find any DB reference on it. Anyone know how many DB it is at 20hz?

Yes,I know I could get the Sb13-ultra for less than the cost of the JL. But I am trying to get an idea of what I am getting for the extra $300 for the Rythmik and $1,300 for the E-sub over the $700 price of the Sb-2000.

For reference my current set-up is a Marantz Sr5008, Martin Logan Motion 12's and a Martin Logan Motion 8. Everything will be placed in a 1400 Sq.ft. sealed room.

I plan on expanding on this set-up some more. And have put some thought into it. I plan to post a subject on the matter later on so please look forward to it.

As for now. I am focusing on filling my missing Fq's.

My usage is about 70% music and 30% HT

Thanks
Look forward to getting to know y'all

First, it is doubtful that any individual has auditioned all three of those subs. All the manufacturers you have mentioned are well thought of (although I doubt many would consider JL because of its price vs. performance factor … great subs that just cost way too much for most enthusiasts).

More importantly, that is a huge room. If you have an 8 foot ceiling height we are talking over 11,000 cu. ft.!! I can't think of any single sub that could fill that space adequately, and certainly not any of the ones you have listed. I think you would be setting yourself up for failure if you don't consider at least two subs that have very large outputs (think Seaton and JTR … and perhaps Rythmik's top ported sub).

I do wish you the best on your search … it won't be easy … or cheap.
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post #3 of 71 Old 02-01-2014, 12:40 PM
 
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I think you would be setting yourself up for failure if you don't consider at least two subs that have very large outputs (think Seaton and JTR … and perhaps Rythmik's top ported sub).

Can you say JTR Orbit Shifters?

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I do wish you the best on your search … it won't be easy … or cheap.

+1 as you have no idea how true the above words are.

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Originally Posted by LeDelmo View Post

My usage is about 70% music and 30% HT

Thanks
Look forward to getting to know y'all

Welcome to AVS.

If doing a 70/30 music mix, concentrate on the music as home theater sound tracks are many, many, many times more demanding and demanding costs money.

I hate these kinds of questions as it tells me someone has a "BOATLOAD" of homework ahead of them. First things first:

How large is the sealed room?

What are your expectations?

What is the top or your budget?

What type of EQ capability does your AVR have?

...confused.gif

Just saying, the short version, $10k and a lot of effort to get you where you want to, uncompromisingly, want to go.


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post #4 of 71 Old 02-01-2014, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I actually added in the Ceiling height in my calculations. The rooms total Vol is 1,400 Sq.Ft. It’s not Floor Sq. footage.

The room is 18' L x 9' W x 8' H with a little pocket for the door that’s 4.5' W x 3' W x 8' H. So the main room has a Vol of 1296 Sq.Ft. and the little door entry is 108 sq.ft. Which give the room a total Vol of 1404 Sq.ft

 

 

 

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post #5 of 71 Old 02-01-2014, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by LeDelmo View Post

I actually added in the Ceiling height in my calculations. The rooms total Vol is 1,400 Sq.Ft. It’s not Floor Sq. footage.
The room is 18' L x 9' W x 8' H with a little pocket for the door that’s 4.5' W x 3' W x 8' H. So the main room has a Vol of 1296 Sq.Ft. and the little door entry is 108 sq.ft. Which give the room a total Vol of 1404 Sq.ft



That's a whole different ballgame! Any of those you mentioned should work out well. Only you can decide on how much money you are willing to spend.
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post #6 of 71 Old 02-01-2014, 12:55 PM
 
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A good place to start looking, a pair of SVS PB-2000.
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post #7 of 71 Old 02-01-2014, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I would greatly prefer a sealed woofer over a ported one. The roll off is so much smother. Seems like people are just starting to get there Sb-2000's and from what I have heard they are loving them. The roll off is nice and deep. I guess this thing is killing it in the sub 20hz range.

 

Now back to subject. I know the Rythmik F12 and JL will greatly out preform the SVS in the 150hz+ range. But the Rythmik doesn’t seem to be able to hang with the SVS in the sub 25hz I believe. Whereas the JL I am sure dose great down low and up top. But I have no reference as to just how well it dose. All I know is that its +/- 1.5db from 22hz-118hz and -3 db from 21hz-120hz. Per JL's site Specifications.

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post #8 of 71 Old 02-01-2014, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by LeDelmo View Post

Seems like people are just starting to get there Sb-2000's and from what I have heard they are loving them. The roll off is nice and deep. I guess this thing is killing it in the sub 20hz range.

In a room that small, you can reach lower frequencies than specced via normal room gain. For instance a sub that specs out at 22 Hz plus or minus 3 db might be able to reach 18 or 19 Hz simply due to room gain.

Other than greater output in ported designs, ported vs sealed doesn't seem to be that big of factor these days, possibly due to the quality of drivers, amplification, and digital signal processing (dsp) control. The physical size (and WAF) of the sub probably plays into it far more than a perceived difference in sound quality. I do admit that both my subs (one for music and a different sub for movies) are both sealed designs and both are in rooms much larger than yours.

The bottom line is to know what you are after and what you are willing to spend to attain your personal goal. And unless you listen to a lot of organ music or music with synthesizers, very few instruments go lower than 27 Hz. Movie LFE is another story.
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post #9 of 71 Old 02-01-2014, 02:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LeDelmo View Post

But the Rythmik doesn’t seem to be able to hang with the SVS in the sub 25hz I believe. Whereas the JL I am sure dose great down low and up top. But I have no reference as to just how well it dose. All I know is that its +/- 1.5db from 22hz-118hz and -3 db from 21hz-120hz. Per JL's site Specifications.

...confused.gif

I see you missed the part in your post regarding you wanting to use your subwoofer system for 70% music.

(why don't people just come out and say they want a rocking good home theater subwoofer system they can occasionally use with music)

...rolleyes.gif

If you think what I quoted above of yours is true and accurate, then my recommendations would be to add some money to your budget, buy a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs and be done with it because a pair of FV15HPs, properly dialed in, would kill, bury and dance on your above thoughts regarding SVS and JL.

...tongue.gif

From the JL Audio web site:

JL Audio ESub e112...Frequency Response (Anechoic) 22 - 118 Hz (1.5dB) -3 dB at 21 Hz / 120 Hz

Our pair of FV15HPs are dialed in at 11Hz and able to "easily" handle THX reference level play, duties.

From our living room:




Yeah baby! Gonna kick some JL Audio butt and do it for a whole lot cheaper.

...biggrin.gif

(okay, that's it, time for a short walk)

...tongue.gif

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post #10 of 71 Old 02-01-2014, 03:35 PM
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My room is 1300 cu. ft and a single sealed Rythmik F15 is too much for music and HT smile.gif


and did I mention that its wicked for audio smile.gif
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post #11 of 71 Old 02-01-2014, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, I will try to answer some questions that were brought up. Being that I am using a Marantz AV receiver I will be using its Audyssey EQ. My expectations are a subwoofer that sounds warm and deep. I would like it to be capable of doing some if not most of the mid-bass Fq. Letting my Motion's blend seamlessly into it. "I.e able to be in the 200hz range comfortably".

 

I was asking what people's opinion on these subwoofers were. I have heard people describe the Rythmiks as being too tight. Leaving a unique response from them. It's one of those "too perfect" scenarios. Taking away from the bass's warmth. To me the best way to gather information on products is to read or hear people’s criticisms on said product. I would like people honest opinions good and bad. If you felt any particular brand has a certain sound over the others or lacks something over the others. Key traits that set them apart. Being I have not been able to listen to them myself leaves me completely dependent on others "Opinions" And you know what they say about opinions. So I must then compile multiple opinions until a consensus is established.

 

The JL was more of a curiosity than anything else. Love the fit and finish. Construction is again always top notch. But I still don’t know what kind of DB levels it plays at. Take an example The SVS plays 20hz at 95 DB and the Rythmik I believe was around 90DB at 20hz. That’s a huge difference. So if the JL played 20hz at a 100+DB. It would be like having two of ether the other subwoofers.

 

I am honestly leaning toward the SVS. It seems to be the best balanced woofer and the most affordable. I really like Rythmik. My uncle owns nothing but Rythmik and Paradigm speakers.

 

 

 

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Subwoofers from companies like Hsu, PSA, Rythmik and SVS (just to name four) are held in high regard by most people here. It would be difficult to go wrong with a number of models from any of these companies. Since your room is on the small side, you're in luck. You can get an excellent subwoofer to fill your space without spending a fortune. I also doubt you will need two, unless you run into problems of peaks and nulls at critical spots in your room, so that also bodes well for the pocketbook.

I believe the two subwoofers you have mentioned (SVS SB-2000 and Rythmik F12) should work quite well in a room of that size, although I haven't heard either one and can't confirm this. SVS might have an advantage in that you can order a sub, get it shipped to you for free, try it out for 45 days, and if you don't like it you can ship it back for free.

BTW, I own a sub from SVS and a sub from PSA (like to spread the wealth). I've also auditioned subs from Hsu, JL Audio and Paradigm.

Best of luck on your search.
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post #13 of 71 Old 02-01-2014, 10:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LeDelmo View Post

OK, I will try to answer some questions that were brought up. Being that I am using a Marantz AV receiver I will be using its Audyssey EQ. My expectations are a subwoofer that sounds warm and deep.

If a speaker or subwoofer sounds warm, it does so because it's sound has been "artificially" colored and is not a true and accurate representation of what was recorded. An accurate subwoofer or speaker should be neutral sounding; not adding "anything" to the original recording..

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The JL was more of a curiosity than anything else. Love the fit and finish. Construction is again always top notch. But I still don’t know what kind of DB levels it plays at. Take an example The SVS plays 20hz at 95 DB and the Rythmik I believe was around 90DB at 20hz. That’s a huge difference. So if the JL played 20hz at a 100+DB. It would be like having two of ether the other subwoofers.

Actually, according to the accepted forum playback testing authority, Data-Bass, the Rythmik FV15HP has a max playback @ 20Hz of 108dB and if you add in normal room gain, it's more like 114dB at 2m.

A suggestion would be to look over the first couple of posts in the ULF thread.

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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


If a speaker or subwoofer sounds warm, it does so because it's sound has been "artificially" colored and is not a true and accurate representation of what was recorded. An accurate subwoofer or speaker should be neutral sounding; not adding "anything" to the original recording..
Actually, according to the accepted forum playback testing authority, Data-Bass, the Rythmik FV15HP has a max playback @ 20Hz of 108dB and if you add in normal room gain, it's more like 114dB at 2m.

A suggestion would be to look over the first couple of posts in the ULF thread.

-

I was actually referring to the Rythmik F12...Not the FV15Hp

 

But very good point! I guess I never really thought about subwoofers being so neutral. But it dose make perfect sense. Now I see why Rythmiks are so highly regarded for there servo design.

But would anyone say the Rythmik is worth the extra $250 over the SVS? Thought It was $300 more turn out its $875= $57 S/h and the SVS is $700.
 

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If a speaker or subwoofer sounds warm, it does so because it's sound has been "artificially" colored and is not a true and accurate representation of what was recorded.

If a subwoofer sounds warm, you are more likely looking at significant second harmonic order distortion.
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post #16 of 71 Old 02-02-2014, 06:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LeDelmo View Post

I was actually referring to the Rythmik F12...Not the FV15Hp

Sorry. My myopic viewpoint.

(What? Rythmik makes other subwoofers?...eek.gif...I didn't know....tongue.gif)

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But would anyone say the Rythmik is worth the extra $250 over the SVS? Thought It was $300 more turn out its $875= $57 S/h and the SVS is $700.

In my younger days, I put diamonds in my wife's ears and on her neck. Nothing says I love you better than a boatload of cash spent on cut crystalline carbon. The diamonds were a bit smallest (not that small) and the reason why, because I went with ideal cut, and near flawless color and clarity. Does it make a difference. Absolutely. Why? For it's brilliance, an ideal cut diamond can be seen across a room.

How does the above apply to Rythmik subwoofers? We purchased a pair of FV15HPs for use in a 3300^3 room. Everything, posted by others that I read online who had done comparative comparisons of Rythmik vs somebody else's subwoofers, said it made a difference. After, quite literally, banging away on the web for months, a pattern emerged by those who were able to make a comparison; Servo Technology was cause for tighter bass, improved music characteristics and gave a more pleasurable listening experience. So yes, the consensus that I found said the extra few hundred dollars spent on the Rythmik, is worth it. Coming from budget minded Klipsch RW-12D subwoofers, for obvious reasons, I didn't do a side-by-side comparisons so I can't say if their comments were true and accurate or not. These were anecdotal comments, not empirical, peer reviewed studies. At low volumes (back ground, Comcast provided, 80's rock,) very nice, the bass is there and not overpowering the background music. Regarding movie sound tracks, at +/- 0dB, MVC, the whole room, rattles, rumbles and rolls, including floor, chairs and everything else you want to add to the list. From subtle to extreme.

A benefit I don't see discussed, is the PEQ the Rythmik amplifiers are equipped with. With two subwoofers, I had two separate PEQ functions that were used, with the aid of REW, to help dial the subwoofers into the acoustics of the room and yes, it made a huge difference in narrowing and removing dips without harming headroom.

Back to the diamonds. The diamonds were a bit smaller, more expensive and had more glitter than the big, less expensive stones most like to buy. Both my wife and I like the glitter of well cut, clean diamonds. And despite these being the last diamonds I bought my wife (yes, if I were a rich man...but I'm not), she could not be happier because these are her diamonds (women tend to personalize these types of purchases) and it's all about happiness and knowing that one went out of their way, to do their best to get the best "they could afford." So in the end, like buying diamonds for a loved one, it's your call, your peace of mind and your answer to the question, do you find the above points worth it?

Hope the above ramblings help.

(It's Super Bowl Sunday. Are you ready for some football!?)

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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Sorry. My myopic viewpoint.

(What? Rythmik makes other subwoofers?...eek.gif...I didn't know....tongue.gif)
In my younger days, I put diamonds in my wife's ears and on her neck. Nothing says I love you better than a boatload of cash spent on cut crystalline carbon. The diamonds were a bit smallest (not that small) and the reason why, because I went with ideal cut, and near flawless color and clarity. Does it make a difference. Absolutely. Why? For it's brilliance, an ideal cut diamond can be seen across a room.

How does the above apply to Rythmik subwoofers? We purchased a pair of FV15HPs for use in a 3300^3 room. Everything, posted by others that I read online who had done comparative comparisons of Rythmik vs somebody else's subwoofers, said it made a difference. After, quite literally, banging away on the web for months, a pattern emerged by those who were able to make a comparison; Servo Technology was cause for tighter bass, improved music characteristics and gave a more pleasurable listening experience. So yes, the consensus that I found said the extra few hundred dollars spent on the Rythmik, is worth it. Coming from budget minded Klipsch RW-12D subwoofers, for obvious reasons, I didn't do a side-by-side comparisons so I can't say if their comments were true and accurate or not. These were anecdotal comments, not empirical, peer reviewed studies. At low volumes (back ground, Comcast provided, 80's rock,) very nice, the bass is there and not overpowering the background music. Regarding movie sound tracks, at +/- 0dB, MVC, the whole room, rattles, rumbles and rolls, including floor, chairs and everything else you want to add to the list. From subtle to extreme.

A benefit I don't see discussed, is the PEQ the Rythmik amplifiers are equipped with. With two subwoofers, I had two separate PEQ functions that were used, with the aid of REW, to help dial the subwoofers into the acoustics of the room and yes, it made a huge difference in narrowing and removing dips without harming headroom.

Back to the diamonds. The diamonds were a bit smaller, more expensive and had more glitter than the big, less expensive stones most like to buy. Both my wife and I like the glitter of well cut, clean diamonds. And despite these being the last diamonds I bought my wife (yes, if I were a rich man...but I'm not), she could not be happier because these are her diamonds (women tend to personalize these types of purchases) and it's all about happiness and knowing that one went out of their way, to do their best to get the best "they could afford." So in the end, like buying diamonds for a loved one, it's your call, your peace of mind and your answer to the question, do you find the above points worth it?

Hope the above ramblings help.

(It's Super Bowl Sunday. Are you ready for some football!?)

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WOW, just WOW.......
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WOW, just WOW.......

In a good way I hope.

...biggrin.gif

...redface.gif
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post #19 of 71 Old 02-03-2014, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright, I have thought this over allot now and here’s what I have come up with. The positives I see for the F12 are the Servo design, and its built-in pre EQ "Which is so nice". The negatives I see for the F12 are the servo design seems to be a love or hate situation. Some people love how snappy and tight the sub is. Others seem to really hate the thing saying it’s a complete disappointment.

 

The pros to the SVS are its 500 Watts "About 35% more powerful", and is about +5DB higher than the F12 everywhere "Which is huge" And let’s not forget it’s cheaper by about $250. Negatives are the lack of inputs, and no Pre EQ.

 

I really like the driver in the Rythmik. It looks very well developed. I have not been able to see the driver in the SB-2000 nor has anyone. I asked SVS if they could get a picture of one for me. But, was declined because of how new the speaker was. If ANYONE has gotten one of these. Could you get a picture of the driver? I am dying to see what they did. But, don’t do it if you are not comfortable.

 

I went on to check both companies’ warranties. The Rythmik has a 5 year warranty on the drive and 2 year on the electronics. SVS has a 5 year unconditional warranty, 1 year performance guarantee "where they will replace the sub if they make any changes to it", 1 year lemon guarantee, 1 year trade up, 90 day defective exchange, 60 day price guarantee, and a 45 day in home audition.

 

I think I am going to ask my uncle and see what his thoughts are on the Rythmiks. I think he’s got F12hp, F15 and F12

 

Now let me say I am positive the F12 will have the tightest bass response. But I can’t see the SVS being that much worse over the Rythmik. Or am I wrong?

 

 

 

 

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Ears and brains are a funny thing. When it comes to subtle and nuances, unless someone is standing there saying....."can't you hear that?" One will probably never notice it until one strange day, "THAT" particular sound, pops into your awareness.

The point, if nobody is standing there, flagging you in, my bet, you'll never know the difference.

"Doubt."

The most powerful sales tool. Introduce doubt into the presentation and you'll close the deal every time because the doubt will eat at the customer until they give in to their insecurities. And the customer will close the deal themselves, just to get rid of the nagging doubt.

Quote:
But I can’t see the SVS being that much worse over the Rythmik. Or am I wrong?

As a fanboy of PSA, SVS and Rythmik and an owner of Rythmik, I don't think you're wrong as nobody I know of comes on here after buying a SVS product saying they feel they got hosed.

As a suggestion, go over to the official SVS thread and ask those guys if they're disappointed in what they're hearing.

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post #21 of 71 Old 02-03-2014, 03:33 PM
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The SVS is a risk free endeavor, so get one, if you like it keep it. If not send it back and move on to the next one. Maybe get the SVS and borrow your uncle's F12 to compare in your room.
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post #22 of 71 Old 02-03-2014, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

The SVS is a risk free endeavor, so get one, if you like it keep it. If not send it back and move on to the next one. Maybe get the SVS and borrow your uncle's F12 to compare in your room.

 

 

That's a great idea. I didn't even think about that.

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post #23 of 71 Old 02-04-2014, 04:29 PM
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I currently have a Mirage BPS400 ( dual12's ) and I want to add the Rythmik F12 or SVS SB200, let me know which one u choose. I'm worried about mixing a servo sub and a non servo sub together

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post #24 of 71 Old 02-04-2014, 08:11 PM
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My future HT is almost the same size as yours...mine is 16'-4" X 11'-8" X 7'-6" and I have a pair of F25s. Just to put it in perspective...Currently, I have one (just ONE!!!) of the F25s in my family room. The family room is 16 X 17 X 8 and is fully open into a 14 X 15 X 8 kitchen, an 8 X 8 X 8 entry and the basement steps. On the other end of the kitchen, a 7 X 7 opening leads to the rest of the downstairs...all open. The single F25 fills the family room and the kitchen with plenty of bass and it is not even close to working hard. I can hardly wait to hear the pair of them in my HT!!!!
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post #25 of 71 Old 02-04-2014, 08:29 PM
 
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^^
I have heard that bass is actually harder to integrate in small room due to room modes that can cause null at your LP. Hopefully you will find the best location for your dual when you have them in your theater. Spreading them out as far as you can is most folk's recommendation (one in left front corner, one in the right back room corner for example). Regardless, a pair of f25 in your small room can do some damage smile.gif
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post #26 of 71 Old 02-05-2014, 06:40 PM
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^^
I have heard that bass is actually harder to integrate in small room due to room modes that can cause null at your LP. Hopefully you will find the best location for your dual when you have them in your theater. Spreading them out as far as you can is most folk's recommendation (one in left front corner, one in the right back room corner for example). Regardless, a pair of f25 in your small room can do some damage smile.gif

Without being too cocky...I am quite optimistic that not only will the system sound awesome, but it will measure quite well also! In fact, I am counting on it!!
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post #27 of 71 Old 02-05-2014, 07:07 PM
 
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That is what I am expecting also smile.gif please post graph if possible once things are set up.
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post #28 of 71 Old 02-05-2014, 08:23 PM
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That is what I am expecting also smile.gif please post graph if possible once things are set up.

You may need to walk me through the graph posting, but yup...will do!
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post #29 of 71 Old 02-05-2014, 09:18 PM
 
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^^
Once you have REW downloaded and have a USB mic (UMIK-1 from Cross spectrum is recommended here). It is straight forward. AustinJerry here has a very well written instruction to get REW going. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs
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post #30 of 71 Old 02-09-2014, 06:59 AM
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From the JL Audio web site:

JL Audio ESub e112...Frequency Response (Anechoic) 22 - 118 Hz (1.5dB) -3 dB at 21 Hz / 120 Hz

Our pair of FV15HPs are dialed in at 11Hz and able to "easily" handle THX reference level play, duties.

From our living room:




Yeah baby! Gonna kick some JL Audio butt and do it for a whole lot cheaper.

...biggrin.gif

(okay, that's it, time for a short walk)

...tongue.gif

-

It needs to be stated that you are comparing JL Audio's published anechoic spec (outdoor ground-plane measurement) to an in-room response. This is not apples to apples.
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Svs Sb2000 , Marantz Sr5008 , Svs Sb13 Ultra Piano Gloss 13 Inch 1000 Watt Powered Subwoofer , Svs , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Jl Audio , Jl Audio Brand
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