Why aren't two VTF-15Hs filling my room with bass? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-05-2014, 09:00 AM
 
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I don't know, if my sub were honking, I'd be good but quacking subs scare me.

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Me? I'm a pragmatic, glass half empty kinda guy. I already know life wants to dump on my so I'd just give them a call and ask what's up.
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Old 02-05-2014, 09:37 AM
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Is there any of the warranty left on the sub that makes noise? If so you'll be fine.

"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"

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Old 02-05-2014, 09:49 AM
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I can't believe no one else asked this, so I will:

in3rtia - in your AVR what do you have your speakers set as LARGE or SMALL??? What crossover are you using???
No matter what speakers you have try this as a starting point: Speakers set to SMALL, Crossover set to 80hz for ALL speakers, LPF of LFE 120hz, Crossover/Filter on back of sub to Highest Frequency to disable it to let the AVR do the bass management.
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Old 02-05-2014, 09:52 AM
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The odd thing to me is he is hearing voices from the sub. That tells me the xover is way too high.

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Old 02-05-2014, 10:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

The odd thing to me is he is hearing voices from the sub. That tells me the xover is way too high.

Actually, it tells me he's been cutting back on his meds.

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Old 02-05-2014, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post

I've done that with them in their current position, but what I'm understanding is that it would be better if I put the sub in my MLP - right?

If the sub doesn't sound good anywhere in the room, there's no point in doing the sub crawl with the sub at the MLP. I'm trying to save you some work.
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

I can't believe no one else asked this, so I will:

in3rtia - in your AVR what do you have your speakers set as LARGE or SMALL??? What crossover are you using???
No matter what speakers you have try this as a starting point: Speakers set to SMALL, Crossover set to 80hz for ALL speakers, LPF of LFE 120hz, Crossover/Filter on back of sub to Highest Frequency to disable it to let the AVR do the bass management.

Good idea to check this. I've had YPAO do some crazy things.
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I just let YPAO get me started with levels and distances then I go and change pretty much everything afterwards.
Speakers are small, all with 80hz crossover. I don't have any sub options or LFE/LPF settings in the receiver, except to "use" them and reverse the phase. Unless I'm missing something but I've been through the manual. The crossover is switched to OUT on the sub, and the dial is maxed out anyway. I think it maxes at 100hz

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The odd thing to me is he is hearing voices from the sub. That tells me the xover is way too high.
I never said that.
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

If the sub doesn't sound good anywhere in the room, there's no point in doing the sub crawl with the sub at the MLP. I'm trying to save you some work.
So it's possible that no matter where I put two 15" subs in my room, I'll never have bass? I don't think I can accept that.
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:28 PM
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You should be able to get great bass in your room. Just need to try more positions and see what's wrong with the sub thats making the weird noise. FWIW I run 2 Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus subs in Max Extension Mode with 1 port plugged in a 2400 cu/ft room with a 4' wide floor to ceiling opening to rest of house. I have 1 sub up front between the Left Front speaker and the TV/Center speaker and I have 1 sub behind the corner of my L shaped sectional couch so that sub is on the right side wall about 2/3rd's the way back. And I have incredible bass, I get the punch in the chest and the shaking in the couch.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:32 PM
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To the OP...........Check the Dynamic Range Compression *DRC" setting in your yammy. It should be set to Max. I think it defaults to Min or Std (Standard). Max means preserve maximum dynamic range.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

To the OP...........Check the Dynamic Range Compression *DRC" setting in your yammy. It should be set to Max. I think it defaults to Min or Std (Standard). Max means preserve maximum dynamic range.

I believe Max is the max compression. I think you want the setting none.
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

To the OP...........Check the Dynamic Range Compression *DRC" setting in your yammy. It should be set to Max. I think it defaults to Min or Std (Standard). Max means preserve maximum dynamic range.
That's the DTS Dynamic Range, which is Max by default and I think that's where I have it set, but I can double check when I get home.
MAX = Produces audio without adjusting the dynamic range.
STD = Adjusts the dynamic range for optimum volume for regular home use.
MIN/AUTO = Sets the dynamic range suitable for low volume listening.

Then there's Adaptive DRC, which is Off by default and I also think that's where I have it.
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:42 PM
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No.....that's confusing with Yamaha avrs. I'vr had RX-V363 and Rx-V3900 in the past. Min denotes preserve Dynamic Range to the minimum, which means maximum compression. Max reverses it, which will not compress dynamic range and you'll get full effect.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:43 PM
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That's the DTS Dynamic Range, which is Max by default and I think that's where I have it set, but I can double check when I get home.

Then there's Adaptive DRC, which is Off by default and I also think that's where I have it.

Leave adaptive DRC off. You should have a separate setting for DRC; set it to max.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Leave adaptive DRC off. You should have a separate setting for DRC; set it to max.
The only option with DRC is Adaptive DRC, which I believe is off.

The only setting to set "MAX" is the Dynamic Range under Setup > Sound > Dynamic Range
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:49 PM
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Which model do you have?

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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RX-A2000
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Old 02-05-2014, 01:02 PM
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Check your Phase controls-- sound like the wave phase  could be cancelling each other out..

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Old 02-05-2014, 03:24 PM
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Normally when a 2 subs are opposite ends of the room, one needs to have the phase 180° out from the other. Being there is a 21ft span between the 2, I bet this is the issue. Or the distance settings are not correct for the subs.

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Old 02-05-2014, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post

That's the DTS Dynamic Range, which is Max by default and I think that's where I have it set, but I can double check when I get home.
MAX = Produces audio without adjusting the dynamic range.
STD = Adjusts the dynamic range for optimum volume for regular home use.
MIN/AUTO = Sets the dynamic range suitable for low volume listening.

Then there's Adaptive DRC, which is Off by default and I also think that's where I have it.

Those settings are fine. I have a Yamaha avr so I am familiar with setting them up.

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Old 02-05-2014, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post

I just let YPAO get me started with levels and distances then I go and change pretty much everything afterwards.
Speakers are small, all with 80hz crossover. I don't have any sub options or LFE/LPF settings in the receiver, except to "use" them and reverse the phase. Unless I'm missing something but I've been through the manual. The crossover is switched to OUT on the sub, and the dial is maxed out anyway. I think it maxes at 100hz



I never said that.
Sorry I must have confused this with another thread. Haha snow days will do that to ya

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Old 02-05-2014, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright guys bear with me here, these are my first ever graphs.
First though, here's what I did:

1) Ran YPAO
2) Changed all speakers to small with 80hz xover
3) Set up a laptop with my UMIK-1, connected to the Yamaha RX-A2000 via HDMI. The Umik was setup 45 degrees at the middle of the couch, MLP, about 8ft away from the center channel.
4) Used the SPL meter in REW with my calibrated UMIK-1, ran 1000hz pink noise speaker calibration for the mains, left channel first, turned the volume up on the receiver until it clocked in at 80dB, which was -11 on the receiver.
5) Used that to level match the right main, center and surrounds then switched the Pink Noise Generator to Sub Cal and adjusted the knobs ever so slightly on the subs until they read 75dB with 0 trim on the receiver. The volume knobs are barely above minimum, which tells me I did indeed have them set too high. Doesn't really matter anyway.
6) Ran some measurements, made some graphs.

Let me know if I fudged anything up.



I know that peak after ~50hz isn't good and it seems to just be exaggerated by the two subs, and I don't really understand the craziness after it drops off after the crossover.
-edit; nevermind I forgot to smooth that graph

Here it is with 1/6 smoothing applied
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:05 PM
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Where is the graph of botb subs alternating phase?

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Old 02-05-2014, 10:06 PM
 
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For sub, unsmooth graph is preferred. Are you Xovered at 80? That huge drop off at Xover point is caused by subs distance or phase. Try to adjust the sub distance by a foot increment and remeasure to see if it improves. Not sure if YPAO allows adjusting subs distances independently.
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Where is the graph of botb subs alternating phase?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassoholic View Post

For sub, unsmooth graph is preferred. Are you Xovered at 80? That huge drop off at Xover point is caused by subs distance or phase. Try to adjust the sub distance by a foot increment and remeasure to see if it improves. Not sure if YPAO allows adjusting subs distances independently.
It does allow independent adjustment. Should I do foot increments closer or farther, and to which sub?
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:14 PM
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That graph tells me you need alternating phase...look how much flatter the graph is out to 200hz. Now your subs are in phase with the mains. Now you can adjust the distance setting and tweak things further.

Edit* or you turned the subs down when you measured?

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Old 02-05-2014, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

That graph tells me you need alternating phase...look how much flatter the graph is out to 200hz. Now your subs are in phase with the mains. Now you can adjust the distance setting and tweak things further.

Edit* or you turned the subs down when you measured?
Well there's my lack of knowledge showing... I saw how flat the other ones were from 15hz to the crossover, except a little hump, then just assumed the roll-off at the crossover was... normal.

I didn't touch the levels throughout any of these measurements.
It's late and I'm tired (I moved these things around by myself), but I look forward to doing more measurements tomorrow after playing with the phase and distances.
do you think it matters which sub is out of phase? That is, should I do measurements with the left sub at 0, right sub at 180, and then left sub at 180, right sub at 0?

Also, how can I tell the subs "are in phase with the mains" if I didn't include them in the measurement?

Thanks for the help so far!
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post

Well there's my lack of knowledge showing... I saw how flat the other ones were from 15hz to the crossover, except a little hump, then just assumed the roll-off at the crossover was... normal.

I didn't touch the levels throughout any of these measurements.
It's late and I'm tired (I moved these things around by myself), but I look forward to doing more measurements tomorrow after playing with the phase and distances.
do you think it matters which sub is out of phase? That is, should I do measurements with the left sub at 0, right sub at 180, and then left sub at 180, right sub at 0?

Also, how can I tell the subs "are in phase with the mains" if I didn't include them in the measurement?

Thanks for the help so far!

Ok now I am confused...I thought you measured with the mains on? So these measurements are with only the subs playing?

Edit*

If that is subs only then no you are correct. Alternating phase is causing the subs to fight eachother and that is why the levels dropped so much. Based on that it looks like 0 phase on both subs is best. Now tweak distance settings...also no smoothing amd make surento scale the verticle axis so it reads 5db incriments.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post


It does allow independent adjustment. Should I do foot increments closer or farther, and to which sub?
It's hard to say. Start out with adding a foot or two to both subs and measure to see if graph looks better. If it's worse, then try to reduce the distances by the same amount. Write down the subs distances set by YPAO before adjusting. You might need to try increase one sub and reduce the other distance and remeasure. It takes some trial and experiment. Also, can you overlap the in-phase and alt-phase graphs to make it easier to compare. Please post unsmooth graph.
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