Why aren't two VTF-15Hs filling my room with bass? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 100 Old 02-05-2014, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post

I know that peak after ~50hz isn't good and it seems to just be exaggerated by the two subs...
If you divide the speed of sound by the width of your room, you should get the frequency of that peak:

1130 ÷ 21 = 53 Hz

Moving your subwoofer to the quarter points of room width should minimize that peak.

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post #62 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post

So it's possible that no matter where I put two 15" subs in my room, I'll never have bass? I don't think I can accept that.

That's not what this is for.

Moving a sub around, playing with phase, etc... doesn't improve the bass in the room as a whole. What it does is move nulls/peaks to a different location within the room. If you get poor bass everywhere in the room, then the problem isn't caused by placement, it's because for whatever reason, your subs are not outputting the bass properly and hence you need to fix that instead of trying to find optimal placement. it could be faulty subs, faulty receiver and/or incorrect settings in your sub and/or receiver.

If you think the issue is the subs are cancelling each other out (I seriously doubt this is happening at anything but a very small set of frequencies), then you can turn off one of the subs and see if things improve. Again, walk around the room and see if things sound better in some spots than others.

Your graphs don't look that bad. They can be improved, but the graphs don't sync with what you're hearing. My hunch is either you're hearing has issues or you're used to the way your old subs sounded.
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post #63 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bassoholic View Post

It's hard to say. Start out with adding a foot or two to both subs and measure to see if graph looks better. If it's worse, then try to reduce the distances by the same amount. Write down the subs distances set by YPAO before adjusting. You might need to try increase one sub and reduce the other distance and remeasure. It takes some trial and experiment. Also, can you overlap the in-phase and alt-phase graphs to make it easier to compare. Please post unsmooth graph.
I have graphs for the subs in their original position in the front of the room, and also with one sub in the rear right corner.

Here are the unsmoothed versions





For this graph, one sub is in it's same spot at the front left of the room, and the other sub is in the rear right side next to the right surround speaker.




Here's both locations, all phase combinations overlayed.

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post #64 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 08:09 AM
 
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What I'm seeing is you need better EQ'g capability where you can drag that peak at 52Hz down. It's amazing how much this will positively affect your graph.

What about the quacking problem? Has that been dealt with? Did you give Hsu a call and see what they had to say on the issue?
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post #65 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I was going to try and mess with an eq plugin for rew because I don't feel like buying a receiver with audessy/sub eq.

And by the time I had a minute to myself yesterday, it was past closing time for hsu. Today, I promise.
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post #66 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 08:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post

I was going to try and mess with an eq plugin for rew because I don't feel like buying a receiver with audessy/sub eq.

The miniDSP and REW have a thing for each other and my understanding, is the least expensive, user friendly appliance one can purchase and expect "excellent", real world results.
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post #67 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

If you divide the speed of sound by the width of your room, you should get the frequency of that peak:

1130 ÷ 21 = 53 Hz

Moving your subwoofer to the quarter points of room width should minimize that peak.

I would give this selective mode cancelling a try. Also gain match the subs using your mic as the gain knobs can differ and you may be driving one harder than the other.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1282064/two-subs-gain-matching-vs-level-matching

The HSU manual has a troubleshooting guide. You could swap drivers and test, then amps to see if the issue is driver, amp, or enclosure related.
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post #68 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 10:19 AM
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As I mentioned before I would co-locate them to see what is happening when the subs are not fighting each other like the seem to be maybe? the graphs dont necessarily show that but worth a try.
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post #69 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mark62 View Post

As I mentioned before I would co-locate them to see what is happening when the subs are not fighting each other like the seem to be maybe?
I still want to try that but I spent all last night adjusting and making measurements from their original locations at either side of the room.
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post #70 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

I would give this selective mode cancelling a try. Also gain match the subs using your mic as the gain knobs can differ and you may be driving one harder than the other.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1282064/two-subs-gain-matching-vs-level-matching

The HSU manual has a troubleshooting guide. You could swap drivers and test, then amps to see if the issue is driver, amp, or enclosure related.
I did level match them before making the measurements.

and I might try a driver swap later, after talking to HSU. I don't exactly know what I'm in for once I take that driver out though rolleyes.gif
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post #71 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 10:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post

I still want to try that but I spent all last night adjusting and making measurements from their original locations at either side of the room.

Good luck.
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post #72 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 10:39 AM
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OP...... remove those two velvety recliners lying next to the subwoofer in the front right corner. Though they can't stop bass frequencies but may prove a major suck out. See if that helps.

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post #73 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 11:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post

I did level match them before making the measurements.
:
Luke said gain match
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post #74 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassoholic View Post

Luke said gain match
My mistake, I used the words interchangeably... I adjusted the knobs on the back of the subs until they measured 75db with a test tone. I originally did do this by putting the subs on the same spot in the middle of my room, marked by tape. Pain in the ass. The knobs were almost exactly in the same spot on each amp to achieve the same volume.
I also did this with them in their corner homes before I started REW measurements.
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post #75 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 04:37 PM
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What specific content do you use to evaluate how the bass sounds?

Do you use a DVD/Bluray? Which one(s)?
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post #76 of 100 Old 02-06-2014, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Every bit of media plays through my HTPC via XBMC. My computer upstairs hosts all my movies and music. Movies are mostly Bluray rips, DTS-HD audio, and music is either FLAC or V0.


I found out that the rattling in the one VTF-15H is actually the driver. I took it out, swapped it in the other cabinet, same problem. I got close to it and it sounded like paper kind of rapidly flapping, almost tearing. I hadn't heard that before. I talked to HSU and I'm going to ship it out tomorrow.
I admit that I had no idea what I was looking for, but there were no obvious signs of damage from what I could tell.
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post #77 of 100 Old 02-09-2014, 10:00 AM
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Your room may not be big enough to accommodate the size of some of the more powerful bass frequencies. A bass frequency needs to be fully formed to be heard right. I had a friend with a room like yours and we could never get the lower freq right. Think of frequencies as waves. high freq are small waves, low freq are big waves. If you cannot complete the large waveform because your walls are too close together then you won't get those frequencies in your room.

My guess is you will need room treatments or a bigger room.
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post #78 of 100 Old 02-09-2014, 10:12 AM
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I also found this for you:

wavelength of sub-30 Hz sounds
I am in the process of auditioning a new sub for my room to get as low bass as possible. i measured the frequency response of my 8" mains using a SPL meter and a tone generator, and they have a flat response until 40 Hz and a rapid dropoff after that. i want any new sub i buy to be able to go significantly below that, at least a little below 30 Hz. i am a physics student, and we are learning about wave theory in class...i realized that the wavelength for a 30 Hz sound is over 38 feet long, and my room is only 12'x13'. does this mean that i am losing large parts of sounds at this frequency? is it possible to have extremely low bass in a small room?

Yes, it is possible to have extremely low bass in a small room. What is difficult to achieve is accurate low bass frequency response in a small room. At low frequencies, standing waves between parallel surfaces become a factor and some frequencies become reinforced by in-phase reflections while other frequencies become diminished by out-of-phase reflections. Very low frequencies, with long wavelegths relative to room dimensions, are reinforced because the reflections are only slightly out-of-phase from the original waves. The net result is to increase the loudness of the lower bass overall, but the effect varies by frequency. Therefore, subwoofer placement becomes an important factor and an equalizer is often required to achieve accurate bass frequency response.
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post #79 of 100 Old 02-09-2014, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jeholloway View Post

Your room may not be big enough to accommodate the size of some of the more powerful bass frequencies. A bass frequency needs to be fully formed to be heard right.
That is the myth of wave propagation, and it's absolutely untrue. If it were true how would headphones or car audio work? rolleyes.gif
The fact of the matter is that the smaller the room the stronger the bass, as cabin gain results in up to a 12dB of increase in SPL per octave lowering of frequency starting where the longest room dimension is 1/2 wavelength...which, BTW, explains how both headphones and auto sound realize very high SPL to very low frequencies from small speakers, extremely small speakers in the case of headphones.

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post #80 of 100 Old 02-09-2014, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I've noticed that in my room, the lower I go - as in closer to the ground - the better the bass sounds. I'm going to try to play around with placements and do more measurements with the one I have this week and see what I see, or hear. I wanna try stacking these things when I get it back. I look forward to trying that out.
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post #81 of 100 Old 02-09-2014, 07:54 PM
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I hope you are right and I am wrong. I however have had trouble getting deep, beautiful,spacious, timpani sounding bass in small spaces. I have been able to get high SPL and tight bass in small spaces but so many frequencies and textures were missing. In fact the sound was jarring and homogeneous in nature. BTW I have never heard satisfying, startling, explosive bass from headphones. I also have never heard car audio bass that was pipe organ beautiful either.
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post #82 of 100 Old 02-10-2014, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jeholloway View Post

I hope you are right and I am wrong. I however have had trouble getting deep, beautiful,spacious, timpani sounding bass in small spaces.
Using how many subs? You can't fix room modes and boundary reflections with just one.

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post #83 of 100 Old 02-10-2014, 10:45 PM
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I have 2 HSU VTF15Hs and I can assure you they can crush that room. I have had mine in 4 different homes and my humble opinion would be the room acoustics are killing you. The first room I had mine in was acoustically solid and they sounded excellent without much tweaking.

My current abode is a basement and I have a similar gnarly spike at about 50 Hz and it sounded like I had little subwoofer. I might have been in the same boat as you questioning the output abilities of the subs if I hadn't had these subs in another room twice the size and had great response. My solution was some sound treatments for the cinder block walls to improve decay times and more importantly a Behringer Ultracurve digital EQ. Look this thing up. It is sonically a winner and the feature set is way over the top for EQing subs. It is stereo so I have a channel for each sub. I simply used the parametric eq function to dial right into the problematic peaks and they are gone. You are way ahead of the game having the software to measure the room response so setting the eq should be a breeze. The great news is that I bought a pristine unit for 99 bucks used on the web and from my experience shopping, you should be able to find a similar deal on one of the usual sites.

Once you kill that peak you will be able to bring the level a bit and you will find your low end.

FYI I have a great Audyssey XT32 receiver and it still couldn't fix the bottom end without this unit.

Just a suggestion.
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post #84 of 100 Old 02-11-2014, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handsaw View Post

I have 2 HSU VTF15Hs and I can assure you they can crush that room. I have had mine in 4 different homes and my humble opinion would be the room acoustics are killing you. The first room I had mine in was acoustically solid and they sounded excellent without much tweaking.

My current abode is a basement and I have a similar gnarly spike at about 50 Hz and it sounded like I had little subwoofer. I might have been in the same boat as you questioning the output abilities of the subs if I hadn't had these subs in another room twice the size and had great response. My solution was some sound treatments for the cinder block walls to improve decay times and more importantly a Behringer Ultracurve digital EQ. Look this thing up. It is sonically a winner and the feature set is way over the top for EQing subs. It is stereo so I have a channel for each sub. I simply used the parametric eq function to dial right into the problematic peaks and they are gone. You are way ahead of the game having the software to measure the room response so setting the eq should be a breeze. The great news is that I bought a pristine unit for 99 bucks used on the web and from my experience shopping, you should be able to find a similar deal on one of the usual sites.

Once you kill that peak you will be able to bring the level a bit and you will find your low end.

FYI I have a great Audyssey XT32 receiver and it still couldn't fix the bottom end without this unit.

Just a suggestion.
That's helpful, thank you. Do you know what model the Behringer was? Was it this?

I would have to learn how to implement the thing because although I have the ability to make measurements, I still don't have the ability to interpret them 100%.
And I definitely don't know how to implement room treatments, especially in a living room that has to look somewhat presentable.

Does anyone have any experience EQing through REW with something like the EQ APO?
If that could save me a little bit of money without the need for more equipment, great.
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post #85 of 100 Old 02-11-2014, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post

That's helpful, thank you. Do you know what model the Behringer was? Was it this?
For sub only use the preferred EQ is the Behringer FBD; the REW forum goes into great detail on how to use it with REW. It has the advantage of being able to use all of it's filters within the subwoofer pass band. A processor like the 8024 or 2496 is better for full system processing. It has the advantage of a built in RTA/auto EQ, which works in a similar fashion to Audyssey.
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And I definitely don't know how to implement room treatments, especially in a living room that has to look somewhat presentable.
Step 1: Carpet the entire floor.
Step 2: http://www.realtraps.com/articles.htm
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post #86 of 100 Old 02-11-2014, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

For sub only use the preferred EQ is the Behringer FBD; the REW forum goes into great detail on how to use it with REW. It has the advantage of being able to use all of it's filters within the subwoofer pass band. A processor like the 8024 or 2496 is better for full system processing. It has the advantage of a built in RTA/auto EQ, which works in a similar fashion to Audyssey.
I haven't measured my mains yet but in your opinion, what would I be better off investing in? The feedback destroyer or the full system processor, considering the pricing is the same?

Thanks, I'll read up.
A quick glance tells me I'd have to sell the subs in order to afford their treatments.
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post #87 of 100 Old 02-11-2014, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post

I haven't measured my mains yet but in your opinion, what would I be better off investing in?
To use a full range processor you need a separate pre-amp/amp, and if the processor doesn't have digital input/output (the 8024 does not) there are other issues as well. The FBD is plug and play between the AVR and subs, and it works better as a pure sub processor. I can't comment on that particular FBD model, go to the REW forum on that.

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post #88 of 100 Old 02-11-2014, 07:54 AM
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Every bit of media plays through my HTPC via XBMC. My computer upstairs hosts all my movies and music. Movies are mostly Bluray rips, DTS-HD audio, and music is either FLAC or V0.


Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but what specific path do you use to get audio from your HTPC to your AVR?
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post #89 of 100 Old 02-11-2014, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but what specific path do you use to get audio from your HTPC to your AVR?
The PC has an AMD Radeon HD 6570 with HDMI out so that's the only cable connecting them.
XBMC is configured to pass unprocessed data 'as is' to the receiver to be played and does not allow other windows sounds to interfere or get added to the mix (WASAPI).
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post #90 of 100 Old 02-11-2014, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post

Does anyone have any experience EQing through REW with something like the EQ APO?

If that could save me a little bit of money without the need for more equipment, great.

 



I do. Actually, that's my post, so thanks.
I don't use xbmc, but I think, as the name implies, you need the APO interface for that particular program to work, but changing that is probably not a problem.
I use five filters plus a house curve.
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