Why aren't two VTF-15Hs filling my room with bass? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Someone help me troubleshoot this, I'm losing sleep over here.
I need to know why two of these things don't sound any different than the Polk PSW505 they replaced.
This is the layout of my room:



With the volume knob at the 9:30 mark, YPAO set them to -5. I bumped them up to -2. I still have to crank the volume to fill the room with bass, like -5 to 0db on the receiver, where my mains are getting uncomfortably loud because the couch isn't too far away, and it still feels like there should be more bass, especially with two. No chest pounding, no vibrating, no drywall cracking...
Now this is all with music, but I'm testing it with bass-heavy music. It's just not there. Doesn't matter what port config or Q settings I use. I've tried level matching the subs to the mains with a UMIK-1 and REW's SPL meter.


On the other hand, some movies really make these things move, and you get the tactile feel of the couch shaking underneath you, but I feel like the subs are trying way too hard to do it. They only have to fill 1850 cu ft, and I have to run two of them 5db hot to do it? How can that be right? In fact, the one on the left makes terribly audible rattling noises during intense LFE if the volume is real loud (louder than -10).

What am I do wrong here? Is it possible my receiver is acting up? It's a Yamaha RX-A2000, each sub has it's own RCA port - no Y splitters or anything.

Am I just expecting too much? I listen to more music than I do watch movies so I would really like to hear these things shine.

Any advice is appreciated.
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post #2 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 06:40 PM
 
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Temporarily move the left sub to where the table is with the camera on it.

(and then again, the dog and cat could be sucking up all the love)

Even if at +/-0dB MVC, the left sub shouldn't be rattling If the sub is rattling, there's a problem of sorts.
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post #3 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Temporarily move the left sub to where the table is with the camera on it.

(and then again, the dog and cat could be sucking up all the love)
tried throwing the animals outside, no change.

And I actually did play around with placement. I put a sub each on either side of the couch, sounded worse to me without the corner load.
Even with the monsters next to me they didn't hit any harder than they do in their corners
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post #4 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 06:44 PM
 
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...biggrin.gif

Putting the left sub in the place of the end table and leaving the right sub where it is, should cause an improvement. What type of rattling are you having?
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post #5 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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The rattling sounds like its from the cabinet. I'm emailing HSU about that separately. rolleyes.gif
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post #6 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 06:46 PM
 
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Don't move both subs to the same side of the room. Just the left one.

Can you open the cabinet up (remove the driver) and see if there's anything causing the rattle that you can fix?
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post #7 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 06:46 PM
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Try co-locating them and see if that makes a difference, I had the same problem in my room when I tried them in separate locations. I ended up stacking them and surprisingly they measure pretty flat.

Just a thought.
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post #8 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 06:51 PM
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Is it possible you have some sort of Dynamic volume enabled?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

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post #9 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Don't move both subs to the same side of the room. Just the left one.

Can you open the cabinet up (remove the driver) and see if there's anything causing the rattle that you can fix?
I'd be worried about voiding a warranty

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Originally Posted by mark62 View Post

Try co-locating them and see if that makes a difference, I had the same problem in my room when I tried them in separate locations. I ended up stacking them and surprisingly they measure pretty flat.

Just a thought.
I could try that.

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Is it possible you have some sort of Dynamic volume enabled?
I don't think I have anything like that on my Yamaha. I have Adaptive DRC or something, but it's off.
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post #10 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 07:11 PM
 
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I'd be worried about voiding a warranty

A suggestion, since worried about this issue, tomorrow morning or as soon as possible, give Hsu a call and see what they have to say.
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post #11 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 07:14 PM
 
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Not knowing much about what the control settings on your subs are, something must be wrong as dual 15H's should be capable of shaking your small room. I had a single vtf2mk3 in a room bigger than yours and it was loud. Talk to Hsu.
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post #12 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 07:33 PM
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You shouldn't have them both in the front of the room. The seeming lack of output means that your LP is in a null zone, the result of bad placement. Use the sub crawl method to find the best position with one sub, place the other more or less diagonal to the first, then adjust the phase control on the second until you get the best result.

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post #13 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You shouldn't have them both in the front of the room. The seeming lack of output means that your LP is in a null zone, the result of bad placement. Use the sub crawl method to find the best position with one sub, place the other more or less diagonal to the first, then adjust the phase control on the second until you get the best result.
The corner where the right rear speaker is located gives me the greatest sensation of bass when I duck down there. It is substantially greater than the main listening seat on the couch. I can put one sub there and try it out tomorrow, but would you suggest keeping the other right where it is, since it's diagonal - like you mentioned - or would it be better to have them both on that same wall (one in each corner)? I ask because I read that having a sub in a corner so close to the entrance of the room kind of negates that corner loading effect. I originally assumed this would be overcome just by having two in the same room.
Also, the phase isn't variable on these subs, so how far apart do subs need to be to justify an opposing phase? Is there a science to it? Or is it just a matter of flipping switches until one setting sounds better than the other?

Thanks for all the input so far guys, and I will be talking to HSU also.
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post #14 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post


The corner where the right rear speaker is located gives me the greatest sensation of bass when I duck down there. It is substantially greater than the main listening seat on the couch. 

Wait, when you say it sounds better in the right rear corner than in your main listening position, where is the sub during all of this?  Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but are you doing the sub crawl correctly?

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post #15 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Wait, when you say it sounds better in the right rear corner than in your main listening position, where is the sub during all of this?  Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but are you doing the sub crawl correctly?
i haven't moved the subs yet, they are where they are in the picture. I can hear and feel the bass better in that corner to the right of the couch.
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post #16 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 08:45 PM
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Because you didnt get rythmiks, thats why.
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post #17 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Sell me a pair
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post #18 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 08:53 PM
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Because you didnt get rythmiks, thats why.


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post #19 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 08:53 PM
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i haven't moved the subs yet, they are where they are in the picture. I can hear and feel the bass better in that corner to the right of the couch.

Then what you need to do is place one of the subs in your main listening position like Bill mentioned above.  Then crawl around until you find where it sounds best.  Once you've done that, swap positions and you should feel the same amount of bass you felt when crawling around.

 

Refer to Bill's advice on placing the second sub.  Hopefully this helps, I'd be disappointed too if I got less then stellar results from those subs in that space.

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post #20 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 08:56 PM
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Have you tried flipping the phase to see if that helps at all?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #21 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 09:39 PM
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I would suggest doing the sub crawl. Next step is downloading a copy of REW and aquiring a USB measuring mic(UMIK-1) to measure how your subs are interacting with the room. Next I believe you are sitting in a null and part of that could be your room dimensions. Your room is really wide and shallow...unfortunately you may end up needing to move the LP.
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post #22 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 10:54 PM
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Maybe the Polk sub sounded boomy and these new subs are flatter making it seem lees loud...


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post #23 of 100 Old 02-04-2014, 11:49 PM
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Like has been said, you don't know the problem until you have measured the response at your listening position. You need to get an SPL meter at the least, and hopefully use it with a good sound card and REW. If the subs are causing cancellations, it wouldn't matter what subs you put in there.
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post #24 of 100 Old 02-05-2014, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S Russ View Post

Then what you need to do is place one of the subs in your main listening position like Bill mentioned above.  Then crawl around until you find where it sounds best.  Once you've done that, swap positions and you should feel the same amount of bass you felt when crawling around.

Refer to Bill's advice on placing the second sub.  Hopefully this helps, I'd be disappointed too if I got less then stellar results from those subs in that space.
Ah then I misunderstood his original post. I was crawling around looking for the best bass using the position they're in now. It won't matter if I just plop the sub on the couch as far as the sound and output is concerned? Assuming it doesn't break my couch cool.gif

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Have you tried flipping the phase to see if that helps at all?
I have, and didn't notice much difference.

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I would suggest doing the sub crawl. Next step is downloading a copy of REW and aquiring a USB measuring mic(UMIK-1) to measure how your subs are interacting with the room. Next I believe you are sitting in a null and part of that could be your room dimensions. Your room is really wide and shallow...unfortunately you may end up needing to move the LP.
I just got a UMIK-1 in the mail and I'm still learning REW. I would gladly re-arrange the room but with the furniture I have and with the shape of the room... I think this is the best I can do.

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Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

Maybe the Polk sub sounded boomy and these new subs are flatter making it seem lees loud...
I think you're right but I still expected two 15's to blow me away.

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Like has been said, you don't know the problem until you have measured the response at your listening position. You need to get an SPL meter at the least, and hopefully use it with a good sound card and REW. If the subs are causing cancellations, it wouldn't matter what subs you put in there.
My next move will be posting graphs for you guys to help me interpret. I got the UMIK-1 and REW and I've made a few measurements with them, but when it comes to understanding the results I pretty much hit a brick wall.
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post #25 of 100 Old 02-05-2014, 06:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in3rtia View Post

I got the UMIK-1 and REW and I've made a few measurements with them, but when it comes to understanding the results I pretty much hit a brick wall.

That's okay, in the beginning, most of us just hit ourselves "with" the brick wall.

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post #26 of 100 Old 02-05-2014, 06:35 AM
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Walk around the room while they're playing. If it sounds anemic in some places and fine in others, then you have a placement issue. If it sounds anemic everywhere, then there's something wrong with the subs and/or receiver. Try playing a test tone from the receiver so you're listening to something consistent.
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post #27 of 100 Old 02-05-2014, 06:45 AM
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In3ertia, If you have port noise from one being over driven that's one thing, but if the sub is making a rattling noise it sounds like the seller may have sold you a damaged one. How hard are you driving them?

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post #28 of 100 Old 02-05-2014, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Walk around the room while they're playing. If it sounds anemic in some places and fine in others, then you have a placement issue. If it sounds anemic everywhere, then there's something wrong with the subs and/or receiver. Try playing a test tone from the receiver so you're listening to something consistent.
I've done that with them in their current position, but what I'm understanding is that it would be better if I put the sub in my MLP - right?
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In3ertia, If you have port noise from one being over driven that's one thing, but if the sub is making a rattling noise it sounds like the seller may have sold you a damaged one. How hard are you driving them?
I am a little worried about that. But I might be driving them too hard to try and compensate for the void where I'm sitting. But how hard is too hard? And I wouldn't know the difference between port noise, cabinet rattle, or driver noises, all I know is it sounds bad and forces me to turn the volume down. But with volume being equal, only one sub makes the noise.
When I get home, I'm going to move the subs, re-run YPAO, set all the levels equal, run test tones, take some measurements, and blast you guys with graphs.
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post #29 of 100 Old 02-05-2014, 07:36 AM
 
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First thing first. Call Hsu with your concerns and see what they have to say before you kill yourself, trying to deal with a defective driver. Stuff happens and unfortunately, based on what I've read on these forum pages, it happens quite often but that heart, the CS at Hsu is known to be excellent.
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post #30 of 100 Old 02-05-2014, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I have exchanged an email with HSU but it would probably be quicker to call. I might still go ahead with moving and testing but only with one sub and just leave the potentially bad one switched off in a corner.
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