SVS PB12 Plus, where's the love? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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This seems to be a neglected subwoofer in terms of popularity.  Upon taking a closer look at it, it seems to have a good spot in the ID market:

 

Although there are not tons of data out there on it, it seems to be positioned well ahead of all the $1k and under subs, sort of between the VTF15 and Rythmik FV15HP in performance, and not a bad value considering its shipped price of $1399 with the piano black finish.  While the Rythmik offers a little more maximum output, the PB12 plus still offers very competitive overall performance, quality, and value. 

 

It's closest competitor would be the Rythmik, which in piano black is just over $1700 shipped, with probably a few dB of output in some places in exchange for the higher price.

 

Also the XS30 would be a competitor I suppose in a sealed sub at a lower price without the gloss finish.

 

Anyway, I just don't see this sub getting talked about much, but it seems like it should be an option for more people.


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post #2 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 09:05 AM
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I think if you can afford $1400 on a subwoofer you probably think why not get the best one availalbe? It's "only" $600 more. Over here the Ultra is £300 more than the plus. Not a massive amount of money.

I went for a SB Ultra 13. Although it doesn't exist a SB Plus 12 would probably be around £1000.

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post #3 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I kind of thought that might be some of it..those with $1400 to drop on a sub might just swing up the the ultra.  But, I would think a lot of people thinking about a $1k sub might swing up to 1400 without considering anything higher.

 

Maybe we will see an upgrade to their lineup later this year:

 

PB3000 replace PB12 plus and 13.5" driver

PB4000 replace ultra with 15"!!

 

A lot of heavy hitters coming out lately, time to swing for the fence.


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post #4 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 09:20 AM
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The PB12 Plus basically gets overshadowed by the FV15HP and the VTF15h. The FV15HP is roughly the same price and is a much more powerful sub. The VTF15h is quite a bit cheaper but offers nearly the same performance. Nonetheless the PB/PC12 Plus looks like a very good sub, maybe the best ported 12" on the market. I can not think of a better ported commercial 12". It has its place in SVS's line up, but maybe it suffers from a kinda of "middle child" neglect. I think SVS's best bang for the buck sub is probably the PC12 Plus.
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post #5 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The PB12 Plus basically gets overshadowed by the FV15HP and the VTF15h. The FV15HP is roughly the same price and is a much more powerful sub. The VTF15h is quite a bit cheaper but offers nearly the same performance. Nonetheless the PB/PC12 Plus looks like a very good sub, maybe the best ported 12" on the market. I can not think of a better ported commercial 12". It has its place in SVS's line up, but maybe it suffers from a kinda of "middle child" neglect. I think SVS's best bang for the buck sub is probably the PC12 Plus.

+1 I would agree shady. The PC-PLUS is and has been my favorite choice in the SVS line-up for some time and as a all around sub meets the characteristics in a sub I’m looking for. If I was offered a 15HP or the PLUS, I would go with the PC12-PLUS hands down. I understand another not doing so depending on their own criteria.

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post #6 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 12:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Yeah I kind of thought that might be some of it..those with $1400 to drop on a sub might just swing up the the ultra.

I always considered the Ultra, a over priced, underperformer and considered the PC12-Plus the unloved subwoofer that should get a whole lot more attention.

(although it reads like it, my above is not a knock on SVS or the Ultra)

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post #7 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 12:55 PM
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I was looking for a comparison between the hsu vtf15h and the 12-plus. Really couldn't find much out there. I want a sub that will pressurize the room and I'm not sure the SVS would do that with the smaller driver.

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post #8 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 12:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post

I was looking for a comparison between the hsu vtf15h and the 12-plus. Really couldn't find much out there. I want a sub that will pressurize the room and I'm not sure the SVS would do that with the smaller driver.

Check out Data-Bass and first couple of posts in the ULF thread.
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post #9 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 02:23 PM
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I have the SVS PB12+ and while it does well with ht, the PB12+ falls short with music, imo. For the cost of the PB12Plus, I would spend the extra $82 bucks and take my chances with the vented Rythmik FV15HP. I would expect more extension/output and better accuracy/musicality.
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post #10 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by DualMono View Post

I have the SVS PB12+ and while it does well with ht, the PB12+ falls short with music, imo. For the cost of the PB12Plus, I would spend the extra $82 bucks and take my chances with the vented Rythmik FV15HP. I would expect more extension/output and better accuracy/musicality.

The SVS subs are very accurate with a nice built in flat response.

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post #11 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 04:16 PM
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A measured "flat" response does not always translate to being a "musical" sub, imo.
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post #12 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by DualMono View Post

A measured "flat" response does not always translate to being a "musical" sub, imo.

Doesn't hurt. Makes setting it up easier for most folks. You would be hard pressed to find anyone that says SVS subs are not musical.

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post #13 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 05:45 PM
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There shouldn't even be such a thing as musical or non-musical subs, only accurate or inaccurate subs. No one should ever describe a sub as 'musical'. 'Musical' is worthless as an adjective for a speaker or subwoofer, and is usually only bandied about by audiophiles to excuse a poorly performing piece of equipment.
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post #14 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 05:58 PM
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Because everyone's room and placement is so different, and because of their effect on the sound, a single experience cant be extrapolated into a general statement like "they aren't musical". Doesn't disqualify it either.

A bass curve with a ramp is more "musical" to some. The inclusion of lower frequencies is less "musical" to some too. Dual Mono, it would be interesting to get your impressions of the PB with a 35hz HPF.

Personally, I wish "musical" could be deleted from the adjectives used to describe subs.
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post #15 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

There shouldn't even be such a thing as musical or non-musical subs, only accurate or inaccurate subs. No one should ever describe a sub as 'musical'. 'Musical' is worthless as an adjective for a speaker or subwoofer, and is usually only bandied about by audiophiles to excuse a poorly performing piece of equipment.

Beat me to it. smile.gif
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post #16 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 07:05 PM
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Sorry Bee... but I will respectfully disagree with you. You can say the Ultra is overpriced, I take that (although don't see it that way either....), but certainly NOT an under-performer. Sorry... dude, you are way off on that one. smile.gif The Ultra is SVS's flagship and then some...

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post #17 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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The ultra is priced almost $300 higher than an equivalent(piano black) FV15HP.  The maximum output is about the same, but I am sure other performance parameters are different that may or may not make one sub "better" than the other.  I think both are great subs, but I cannot say that I have analyzed each closely to compare which is possibly the "better".  I believe the Rythmik is a great value considering its output for the price, and its standard finish puts it almost $500 cheaper than the piano ultra.


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post #18 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I always considered the Ultra, a over priced, underperformer and considered the PC12-Plus the unloved subwoofer that should get a whole lot more attention.

(although it reads like it, my above is not a knock on SVS or the Ultra)

-
The ultra series uses very high quality components, that comes at a cost.
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post #19 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 08:37 PM
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The ultra is priced almost $300 higher than an equivalent(piano black) FV15HP.  The maximum output is about the same, but I am sure other performance parameters are different that may or may not make one sub "better" than the other.  I think both are great subs, but I cannot say that I have analyzed each closely to compare which is possibly the "better".  I believe the Rythmik is a great value considering its output for the price, and its standard finish puts it almost $500 cheaper than the piano ultra.

True on all accounts bear, but the Ultra oozes of quality that the Rythmik simply cannot match and as such, it should cost more. And when you take into account shipping cost on the Rythmik is not really that much cheaper.

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post #20 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 09:37 PM
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True on all accounts bear, but the Ultra oozes of quality that the Rythmik simply cannot match and as such, it should cost more. And when you take into account shipping cost on the Rythmik is not really that much cheaper.

It's also worth mentioning the quality of the driver the SVS uses in the Ultra. Looking at data bass, from 20-80Hz, the PB13 produces no more than 7% THD no matter how loud it is driven. Sure, SVS clamped the output to achieve that, but it is still one of the loudest subwoofers in the market and manages to hold the record for the highest 20Hz output of all commercial subs tested, with just a single 13.5'' driver being held back by its limiter. It is producing almost 111dB with just 5.1% distortion. For comparison, the FV15HP produces half the 20Hz output with more than 3 times the distortion (108dB at 17.7%), and that's servo controlled to reduce distortion. Most of the other subs are producing around 20% distortion while producing an output far less than the Ultra.

The PB12, from what I've read, uses a 12'' version of the Ultra driver, and it is pretty much a 12'' version of the PB13. A good part of the cost went to the excellent driver of the PB12-Plus. While it might not be the loudest in their price range, the PB12/PB13 probably represents the highest performing subwoofer of their driver size. With that said, the PB13's driver cannot match the 13.5'' driver in the JL F113. Comparing PB13's sealed mode to the F113 reveals 3-4dB less output than the F113, even with a much bigger cabinet.

Now SVS hurry up and make a PB18-Ultra!!! eek.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #21 of 43 Old 02-08-2014, 09:52 PM
 
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Sorry Bee... but I will respectfully disagree with you. You can say the Ultra is overpriced, I take that (although don't see it that way either....), but certainly NOT an under-performer. Sorry... dude, you are way off on that one. smile.gif The Ultra is SVS's flagship and then some...

And I support your right to have your above opinion. In my opinion, it's okay to have an opinion and it's okay to disagree with another person's opinion. What's important is if you stand by your opinion......which I do. smile.gif

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The ultra series uses very high quality components, that comes at a cost.

At no time am I knocking the cost of the parts found in an Ultra. Just saying, every one of my comments is not a call to arms. Folks have to come to grips that folks who post in these forums are not always go hold the same opinion, another does.
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And I support your right to have your above opinion. In my opinion, it's okay to have an opinion and it's okay to disagree with another person's opinion. What's important is if you stand by your opinion......which I do. smile.gif
At no time am I knocking the cost of the parts found in an Ultra. Just saying, every one of my comments is not a call to arms. Folks have to come to grips that folks who post in these forums are not always go hold the same opinion, another does.


Well put BeeMan... smile.gif as usual. And we can disagree and I respect you for it.

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Well put BeeMan... smile.gif as usual. And we can disagree and I respect you for it.

Oh screw. Does that mean we can get along? tongue.gif
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Oh screw. Does that mean we can get along? tongue.gif

LMAO.... That was classic!!!

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Well... It won my heart. I just got myself the PC12-plus. I'm a little worried going with this over the HSU vtf-15, but the numbers looked solid.
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post #26 of 43 Old 02-09-2014, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by LowerFE View Post

It's also worth mentioning the quality of the driver the SVS uses in the Ultra. Looking at data bass, from 20-80Hz, the PB13 produces no more than 7% THD no matter how loud it is driven. Sure, SVS clamped the output to achieve that, but it is still one of the loudest subwoofers in the market and manages to hold the record for the highest 20Hz output of all commercial subs tested, with just a single 13.5'' driver being held back by its limiter. It is producing almost 111dB with just 5.1% distortion. For comparison, the FV15HP produces half the 20Hz output with more than 3 times the distortion (108dB at 17.7%), and that's servo controlled to reduce distortion. Most of the other subs are producing around 20% distortion while producing an output far less than the Ultra.

Agreed. On this forum, newer members need to separate post count from actual knowledge.The Ultra represents a high point in sub design. Whether it's in the budget or not, there's no denying the excellence of the design and the quality of the individual components. Tom V put everything he's learned into this sub and it shows. What other sub has been around this long and is still in the discussion for top sub? Plus, I can think of no other ported sub that can have all the ports plugged and become a legitimate true sealed sub.

It may not be perfect,but it's not just some driver in a box either.
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LMAO.... That was classic!!!

...biggrin.gif
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post #28 of 43 Old 02-09-2014, 06:26 AM
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I'm not tolerant of poorly made goods. I've had my PB12-Plus DSP for about 2 years and still admire it....Every part of it is of very high quality including performance.
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post #29 of 43 Old 02-09-2014, 06:46 AM
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I can’t seem to find the weight of the FV15HP DS1510 driver, anyone know how much it comes in at? just wondering.. I believe the 13 ULTRA driver is 50.5 or 52 pounds I forget.

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post #30 of 43 Old 02-09-2014, 06:55 AM
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The Ultra drivers are so pretty....they should put a window at the top of the enclosure so you can peer at it, they need to make an acrylic version of their sub like Velodyne did.

While the $2K spent on the PB13U may not necessary mean the maximum dB/$ spent, it's nice to know they pulled out the stops in the design and quality of the sub.
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