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post #31 of 42 Old 02-10-2014, 01:14 PM
 
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Take a look at my theater thread,.....

Not arguing your above. Our system is in a living room with a WAF that says no room treatments. REW graphs show that I've succeeded in taming our room modes. At this point, if you ignore them, they leave you alone. tongue.gif

According to REW, the TopT is 0.86s.

Other than reverberation decay, I got nothing. The room is lively but at no time are the reflections noticeable during normal conversation. On further research, I had preferable numbers ranging from 0.30s > 2.5s. So I have no idea what decent numbers are.

Reverberation time.

Home Theater Shack

Our living room has a cathedral ceiling, average height of 10', length, 22' and width,15' with decent size openings at either end to other large spaces so reflection are kind and leak out of the room.

(personal lament: everything is homework and something new like RT-60 and how to control reflections without ticking off the WAF)

...rolleyes.gif

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post #32 of 42 Old 02-11-2014, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Not arguing your above. Our system is in a living room with a WAF that says no room treatments. REW graphs show that I've succeeded in taming our room modes. At this point, if you ignore them, they leave you alone. tongue.gif

According to REW, the TopT is 0.86s.

Other than reverberation decay, I got nothing. The room is lively but at no time are the reflections noticeable during normal conversation. On further research, I had preferable numbers ranging from 0.30s > 2.5s. So I have no idea what decent numbers are.

Reverberation time.

Home Theater Shack

Our living room has a cathedral ceiling, average height of 10', length, 22' and width,15' with decent size openings at either end to other large spaces so reflection are kind and leak out of the room.

(personal lament: everything is homework and something new like RT-60 and how to control reflections without ticking off the WAF)

...rolleyes.gif

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Remarkable things can be achieved with wood trim, curtais, artwork, furniture. Even stuffed my fabric couches from the bottom with owens corning 703 panels.

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post #33 of 42 Old 02-11-2014, 03:12 PM
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My acoustic room treatment consists of a large u-shaped sectional that takes up most of the room :)  Should find out in a week or so how it measures.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

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post #34 of 42 Old 02-11-2014, 03:13 PM
 
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Remarkable things can be achieved with wood trim, curtais, artwork, furniture. Even stuffed my fabric couches from the bottom with owens corning 703 panels.

Thanks for the above thought. After a career in construction, when I retired, I gave a garage load of tools and materials away, so I wouldn't be tempted by a life time of education. And just because I've become such a happy, unproductive, lazy butt, doesn't degrade the accuracy or thoughtfulness of your above suggestion.
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post #35 of 42 Old 02-11-2014, 05:52 PM
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Thanks for the above thought. After a career in construction, when I retired, I gave a garage load of tools and materials away, so I wouldn't be tempted by a life time of education. And just because I've become such a happy, unproductive, lazy butt, doesn't degrade the accuracy or thoughtfulness of your above suggestion.

Bee, sounds to me like figuring out a way to sneak in some acoustic room treatments in disguise is in order.....the seed has been planted!!;)   (course, your other half may wonder why you are suddenly so interested in high quality curtains)


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

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LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

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post #36 of 42 Old 02-11-2014, 06:16 PM
 
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Bee, sounds to me like figuring out a way to sneak in some acoustic room treatments in disguise is in order.....the seed has been planted!!wink.gif    (course, your other half may wonder why you are suddenly so interested in high quality curtains)

Thanks for the encouragement. If it helps, as much stock as some put into treatments, we have a pretty good graph and the benefit of being a layperson, we're not suppose to worry about details. You have no idea how happy I am with the most recent spat of upgrades. Currently, our system is an excellent system and not being a greedy person, I'm a very happy camper.

Beautiful sound, full on reference capable, gorgeous image quality, great dynamics, flat graph.......the point, I know when to be grateful and happy.

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post #37 of 42 Old 02-11-2014, 06:26 PM
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Thanks for the encouragement. If it helps, as much stock as some put into treatments, we have a pretty good graph and the benefit of being a layperson, we're not suppose to worry about details. You have no idea how happy I am with the most recent spat of upgrades. Currently, our system is an excellent system and not being a greedy person, I'm a very happy camper.

Beautiful sound, gorgeous image quality, great dynamics, flat graph.......the point, I know when to be grateful and happy.

Thats good to hear, although the journey is fun, sometimes it is nice to enjoy the destination for a while.  And from what I can tell of your system, you have a lot to enjoy.  Definitely a helluva lot nicer than my system, but, like you, I am pretty darn happy with what I have.  I have some tweaking left to do, mic and miniDSP for eq'ing my sub are ordered, and I need to get some surrounds set up.  But other than that, I am done for a while.  Since late last year, I will have gone from just a flat screen to a 5.1 home theater for about $2k, and I am thrilled with the performance for what I paid.  

 

But Bee, what about some nice wireless headphones for late night listening.  Or whole house audio.  You need sound in other rooms and zones.  What about some outdoor speakers?  Isn't that old TV looking a bit..small?:D


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

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LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

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Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

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post #38 of 42 Old 02-11-2014, 06:46 PM
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Yeah everyone reaches their "destination" and then for hardcore hobbyists the destination is more of an illusion and the journey is all there really is. Our destination plateau is determined by forces outside our control... Genetics, environment, etc...

There are different levels of blue pill and red pill.

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post #39 of 42 Old 02-11-2014, 06:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

But Bee, what about some nice wireless headphones for late night listening.  Or whole house audio.  You need sound in other rooms and zones.  What about some outdoor speakers?  Isn't that old TV looking a bit..small?biggrin.gif

Sorry. I'm not any fun. Cordless headphones are in the living room and the man cave. The man cave has a 42" flat screen. Fortunately, our place is small enough that when I run the home theater system in the living room, the whole house knows. And it too is nice you're happy with your system. The Hsu speakers are very nice as is that Hsu CC you have on your mantle right below the flat screen you have hanging right above. biggrin.gif

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There are different levels of blue pill and red pill.

I already have that out of my system. Took all the Blue and Red pills I could handle, back in the 60s and the 70s...tongue.gif

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post #40 of 42 Old 02-11-2014, 07:07 PM
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I'm not any fun. Sorry. Cordless headphones in the living room and the man cave and the man cave has a 42". Fortunately, our place is small enough that when I run the home theater system in the living room, the whole house knows. And it too is nice you're happy with your system. The Hsu speakers are very nice as is that Hsu CC you have on your mantle right below the flat screen you have hanging right above. biggrin.gif
I already have that out of my system. Took all the Blue and Red pills back in the 60s and the 70s...tongue.gif

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I was actually just thinking about picking up some wireless headphones for occasional late night listening.  Looked around a bit online and it seems to get decently rated ones is a couple hundred or more.  Time to order a long headphone cable from monoprice lol.  We have a great set of corded sonys.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

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post #41 of 42 Old 02-12-2014, 09:25 PM
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   I am looking to upgrade an old velodyne sub for my 3300 cubic foot sealed dedicated home theater.  About 60/40 music to movies.  Music is more important although I do like to shake the room a little with movies.  I don't listen very loud. Mostly acoustic, jazz and rock.  I am by no means a bass head.  The room is moderately treated. Carpet over concrete on floors, traps in front corner and back wall.  Ceiling is drop ceiling and walls are drywall.  Salk ht2 tl fronts and ht2c with ht1 on wall surrounds.  Denon 4520.  
   My budget is up to 3000 but I would like to keep it closer to 2000.  Size and appearance of the subs is not critical but I am a little concerned about trying to get >100lbs subs down the steps.  I have been looking at Rhythmik.  I am wondering if  could get by with something like 2 Rhythmik F12's or would I need to climb up to F15's, FV15HP's?  How much of a difference would there be if I am listening at moderate levels.  
  I greatly appreciate any help or advice as I am just starting to learn about subs.
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There are several options on the market that will suit your needs...start by emailing SVS, PSA, and Rythmik. I would look at all the little perks each company offers such as price, warranty, customer service, and fit/form/finish. I am a fan of ported, so I would look at the SVS PC12+, PSA XV30F, or Rythmik FV15HP. If HT was no concern and you were not really conerned with alot of output in the lower octaves then the SB13, XS30, or F15HP would be worth a look. I base this off of the fact that your room will not start offering any room gain until around 20hz and most sealed subs start to roll off around 30-35 hz, which could end up causing a loss of headroom after eq is applied to flatten the response.
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I am in the process of emailing them. Thanks for the suggestions. I was thinking that sealed would offer the tight bass I was looking for. If I understand what you are saying at lower levels eq would compensate for the roll off under 30 -35 hz but if I tried to play at higher levels then eq would not completely compensate. I would be willing to trade some output for better quality at lower levels. If the ported can offer the same sound quality at low to moderate levels and better output at high levels then I would definitely go that way.


I'm also considering some new subwoofers so I've thought a bit about requirements and potential candidates for purchase. My requirements are different from yours but I'll provide some thoughts that will hopefully be helpful.

You seem to have very nice main speakers with high quality drivers. In particular your Salk HT2-TL's use 7-inch Seas Excel W18E001 woofers in a transmission line format that will tie with whatever subwoofers you choose. These are very high quality drivers. I've used the 8-inch driver from the same Seas family in the past. There is a very interesting, and detailed article from AudioXpress on using these same drivers in a speaker that is conceptually very similar to yours except the tweeters are different as I'm sure are the details of the design. A quick Google search for Thor: A D'Appolito Transmission Line should find it.

The take-away from all this is:

Your main speakers emphasize very high quality sound.

They are two way designs so a subwoofer will help take load from the woofer/mid-range and allow it to provide even better performance, especially in helping to reduce multitone intermodulation distortion at higher volume levels.

The woofers are 7-inch units with a 5 mm clean X-max (based on their datasheet), they will appreciate a crossover that is not too low. Even two of the units don't displace anything like the displacement of a subwoofer (driver area times excursion) plus again removing low frequencies will better allow the woofers to maintain low distortion performance to match the tweeter. Dropping one octave in frequency requires four times the excursion from the driver. Output at 20 Hz requires sixteen times the excursion for the same loudness at 80 Hz. .

The transmission line appears to roll off at 12 dB per octave in the bass end, the same as a sealed design.


It seems to me that the above says that you want the following things in a subwoofer a pretty much in the following order: (I'm assuming a relatively flat frequency response and a lack of compression below the last few dB's of output - a high quality unit.)

Low distortion - matches your main speakers.

Low group delay - matches the 12 dB roll off of your main speakers

The ability to be crossed over at say 80 to 100 Hz to match the woofers which means the subwoofer should have solid response for say an octave above those frequencies.


My understanding is that the following are of less importance to you:

Ability to play really loud - whatever that is

Sub 20Hz response


These requirements only suggest some directions for subwoofer choices. The actual choice for my subwoofers has given me a hard time so welcome to the club!


Requirements and suggestions:

Low distortion - 80 Hz to 40 Hz - This covers essentially all music except organ, a few notes on the piano and perhaps a few other sources.

Most any high quality subwoofer will provide low distortion in this range - IF you don't want to play REALLY loud and you say you don't. If you play movies at 75 dB with peaks at 95 and sub peaks at 105 dB, there many of the choices suggested in this thread will work.

Low distortion - 40 Hz to 20 Hz.

The easiest choices here are ported subs. Ported designs minimize the distortion of the driver itself since excursion is drastically reduced. Getting a sealed sub to play cleanly at 100 to 105 dB at 20 Hz costs a lot more money, since it requires a much higher quality driver, than with a ported design. If you want low distortion in this area a ported sub seems like the best choice. If you want to play movies at higher levels in this frequency range then again a ported design seems best.


Low group delay - 40 Hz to 80 Hz.

Again, many of the subs suggested in this thread have low group delay in this range. Just look at the measurements which are available online. Based on mainly opinions I've seen, less that one cycle of delay should be the goal. This range is especially important for a good match with your main speakers. It should not be too hard to purchase a subwoofer which has low group delay in this range.

Low group delay - 40 Hz to 20 Hz

Typically the best subs here are sealed units. Sealed units typically effectively have what amounts to a 12 dB high pass filter (actually is is just the way they work, no physical crossover is involved), centered between 10 Hz and 20 Hz which provides a low group delay. The filter may have a steeper slope depending on how the design has chosen to protect the driver. A relatively low slope in the filter means a lower group delay.

Ported designs have a minimum of a 24 dB effective high pass filter (again, due to the design) but typically much higher, 36 dB and 48 dB (these added dB's are due to actual crossovers (perhaps implemented in a DSP chip) used to protect the driver) seems to be common. Ignoring the technical details, a steep slope adds a lot of group delay. The higher the frequency where this steep crossover takes effect the higher the frequency where the group delay is the unacceptable.

Ability to crossover at 80 Hz or 100 Hz

Look at measurements online for subs which meet this requirement. It would be best to see a flat response to say 150 Hz. While the sub isn't producing as much energy at this frequency if its cutoff is at 80 Hz, and it's a 24 dB per octave filter, the phase relationships may be better between the responses of the two drivers, if the frequency response are flat past the crossover region. Some of the subwoofers that use feedback (servos) have drop offs in frequency response at frequencies above 100 Hz or so.


What all the verbiage above seems to say that there is no perfect sub for your application, at least in the $3,000 range or som and especially if you purchase two of them which is advised for a more even response around the listening area, but we'll skip that discussion here.


My advice would be to go for a ported design. It will give you the lowest distortion. It suffers compared to a sealed design in group delay but often only below 30 Hz or less which avoids problems with music and frankly avoids problems with most audio. This higher group delay would also be far away from the crossover to your woofer to minimize problems.

I also suggest a subwoofer(s) with high output at low distortion if distortion is your first goal. Distortion in ported speakers is due to the driver and the port. Distortion drops rapidly with playback level in each case. A big, powerful subwoofer is coasting at low levels and has really low distortion, if it has low distortion at higher levels.


None of the choices other folks have suggested are perfect for you and I don't have such a choice to offer.

Product Thoughts:

I do think the Rythmik FV15HP matches well with your requirements but could be better above 80 Hz. It's group delay occurs at a relatively low level and its distortion is low at high and lower frequencies, and at high and low output. I'd love to see a test of the Rythmik F25, it might be a great sealed sub for a reasonable amount. It is also out of stock and won't be available for many months according to Rythmik.

The Power Sound XS30 (sealed) looks interesting based on the results of XS15 tests but wouldn't match the output of the Rythmik, or low distortion in the 20 Hz to 30 Hz range. It would have all the benefits of a sealed unit however. The XV30F (ported) should also be a good unit based on XV15 tests and doesn't take up a lot of floor space, but scaling the XV15 results it doesn't seem to quite match the FV15HP.

I've never heard any of these subwoofers, but even if I had, their performance is so dependent on the room and how well that they integrate with whatever main speakers are used, that a recommendation would have a lot of qualifications.
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post #42 of 42 Old 02-17-2014, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone for all of your help.  Sooo much information it is overwhelming.  After much consideration I decided to go with two Rythmik E15's.  Final decision was based on general impression after reading many peoples opinions and impressions.  I hope I made the right decision.

Thanks again

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