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post #1 of 42 Old 02-08-2014, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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   I am looking to upgrade an old velodyne sub for my 3300 cubic foot sealed dedicated home theater.  About 60/40 music to movies.  Music is more important although I do like to shake the room a little with movies.  I don't listen very loud. Mostly acoustic, jazz and rock.  I am by no means a bass head.  The room is moderately treated. Carpet over concrete on floors, traps in front corner and back wall.  Ceiling is drop ceiling and walls are drywall.  Salk ht2 tl fronts and ht2c with ht1 on wall surrounds.  Denon 4520.  

   My budget is up to 3000 but I would like to keep it closer to 2000.  Size and appearance of the subs is not critical but I am a little concerned about trying to get >100lbs subs down the steps.  I have been looking at Rhythmik.  I am wondering if  could get by with something like 2 Rhythmik F12's or would I need to climb up to F15's, FV15HP's?  How much of a difference would there be if I am listening at moderate levels.  

  I greatly appreciate any help or advice as I am just starting to learn about subs.

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post #2 of 42 Old 02-08-2014, 02:07 PM
 
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I feel like I'm on camera.

We have a 3300^3 room, use a 4520 and have a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs dialed in, +/-3dB flat to 11Hz. And for the effort, easily have continuous (not just peak) reference level playback.

Currently, Comcast provided, 60s rock is lightly playing in the background.
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post #3 of 42 Old 02-08-2014, 02:10 PM
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... 3300 cubic foot sealed dedicated home theater.  About 60/40 music to movies. ... My budget is up to 3000 but I would like to keep it closer to 2000.  Size and appearance of the subs is not critical ...
For ~$2,000, shipped, dual HSU VTF-15Hs would be a very solid choice. They're well-rated, powerful and tunable.

For $1,518.10, shipped, dual PSA XV15s would also be a good choice. In addition to kicking @ss on movies, they're said to be quite "tight" and "musical"-sounding.
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I have been looking at Rhythmik. I am wondering if could get by with something like 2 Rhythmik F12's or would I need to climb up to F15's, FV15HP's?
FWIW: When I was looking to upgrade from a single PB12-NSD in a ~3,400 cu.ft. room, it was suggested to me (by enrico @ Rythmik, IIRC) that dual F12s or a single F15 would suffice. I was actually going to go with dual F15s before I ended up going with a different brand entirely.
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post #4 of 42 Old 02-08-2014, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jb481 View Post

  I am wondering if  could get by with something like 2 Rhythmik F12's or would I need to climb up to F15's, FV15HP's?  How much of a difference would there be if I am listening at moderate levels.

I would ask Brian@Rythmik.
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post #5 of 42 Old 02-08-2014, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Beeman and eljay, thanks for the suggestions.  Is their a difference in the "musicality" of the various woofers or is a flat response all we need to seek.  Again thanks for your timely response.  I have been dabbling for quite some time but now that I have decided to take the plunge and get fully into this I am anxious to have the subs in the room.

I am sure others have opinions and I would like to hear what everyone thinks.  The more information the better.  Maybe I only need one FV15 HP in this size room or is that subwoofer blasphemy.

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post #6 of 42 Old 02-08-2014, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jb481 View Post

Beeman and eljay, thanks for the suggestions.  Is their a difference in the "musicality" of the various woofers or is a flat response all we need to seek.  Again thanks for your timely response.  I have been dabbling for quite some time but now that I have decided to take the plunge and get fully into this I am anxious to have the subs in the room.
I am sure others have opinions and I would like to hear what everyone thinks.  The more information the better.  Maybe I only need one FV15 HP in this size room or is that subwoofer blasphemy.

Opinions will vary widely on "musicality" of sealed vs ported subs.

More than anything, 2-4 subs makes more difference than anything else since bass will vary WIDELY based on listening position.

Some spots only look even remotely good on a 1/3 octave smoothing but terrible without it.

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post #7 of 42 Old 02-08-2014, 06:48 PM
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I owned a pair of the F15HPs then I switched to a pair of the FV15HPs. I have a 1920 cuft room 12x20x8.
I can tell you there is a big difference in musicality between the FV15HPs and the F15HPs. The F15HPs sounded tighter and they integrated so seamlessly with my main speakers that I couldn't tell they were separate because they blended so well. I would say if you listen primarily to music, go with the F15HPs or the F25s since you have a bigger space. In terms of output, the F15HPs were good but the FV15HPs had quite a bit more to offer..
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Beeman and eljay, thanks for the suggestions.  Is their a difference in the "musicality" of the various woofers or is a flat response all we need to seek.  Again thanks for your timely response.  I have been dabbling for quite some time but now that I have decided to take the plunge and get fully into this I am anxious to have the subs in the room.
I am sure others have opinions and I would like to hear what everyone thinks.  The more information the better.  Maybe I only need one FV15 HP in this size room or is that subwoofer blasphemy.
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post #8 of 42 Old 02-08-2014, 11:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jb481 View Post

Beeman and eljay, thanks for the suggestions.  Is their a difference in the "musicality" of the various woofers or is a flat response all we need to seek.  Again thanks for your timely response.  I have been dabbling for quite some time but now that I have decided to take the plunge and get fully into this I am anxious to have the subs in the room.
I am sure others have opinions and I would like to hear what everyone thinks.  The more information the better.  Maybe I only need one FV15 HP in this size room or is that subwoofer blasphemy.

I can't say about musicality as my worry is reference level, home theater playback. When I listen to music, I have no complaints regarding the subwoofers but I don't have comparative critical listening to share an opinion other than I like what I hear. I have two FV15HPs for smoothness of bass, quantity of bass or loudness and the depth of extension two subs bring to the table vs one subwoofer.
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post #9 of 42 Old 02-08-2014, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jb481 View Post
 

Beeman and eljay, thanks for the suggestions.  Is their a difference in the "musicality" of the various woofers or is a flat response all we need to seek.  Again thanks for your timely response.  I have been dabbling for quite some time but now that I have decided to take the plunge and get fully into this I am anxious to have the subs in the room.

I am sure others have opinions and I would like to hear what everyone thinks.  The more information the better.  Maybe I only need one FV15 HP in this size room or is that subwoofer blasphemy.


What I would look for in a sub that would be considered good for music would be a good looking waterfall plot, group delay, a good impulse response chart, low distortion, especially 3rd order harmonics and higher, as well as a linear response.  These are some of the things that should be considered when choosing a sub for accuracy and such, imo.


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post #10 of 42 Old 02-09-2014, 03:48 AM
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There are several options on the market that will suit your needs...start by emailing SVS, PSA, and Rythmik. I would look at all the little perks each company offers such as price, warranty, customer service, and fit/form/finish. I am a fan of ported, so I would look at the SVS PC12+, PSA XV30F, or Rythmik FV15HP. If HT was no concern and you were not really conerned with alot of output in the lower octaves then the SB13, XS30, or F15HP would be worth a look. I base this off of the fact that your room will not start offering any room gain until around 20hz and most sealed subs start to roll off around 30-35 hz, which could end up causing a loss of headroom after eq is applied to flatten the response.
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post #11 of 42 Old 02-09-2014, 03:49 AM
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What I would look for in a sub that would be considered good for music would be a good looking waterfall plot, group delay, a good impulse response chart, low distortion, especially 3rd order harmonics and higher, as well as a linear response.  These are some of the things that should be considered when choosing a sub for accuracy and such, imo.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but having a good waterfall plot has nothing to do with the sub, but everything to do with the room acoustics??? And Delays, impulse response are also nothing to do with the sub itself.

I hope you know what you are talking about?

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post #12 of 42 Old 02-09-2014, 05:47 AM
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With a budget of $3K, I'd probably get dual Rythmik FV15HPs; at $2K, dual HSU VTF-15Hs. Honestly, I don't think you need to spend that much. Dual SVS PB-2000s, dual HSU VTF-3 MK4s, or dual PSA XV15s would do just fine in that space.
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post #13 of 42 Old 02-09-2014, 12:43 PM
 
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Just saying, if the budget is there, always go for the biggest and baddest the budget will support. Your ears will thank-you later.

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post #14 of 42 Old 02-09-2014, 01:38 PM
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Forgive me if I am wrong, but having a good waterfall plot has nothing to do with the sub, but everything to do with the room acoustics??? And Delays, impulse response are also nothing to do with the sub itself.

I hope you know what you are talking about?


Probably not dave, I was under the impression that these graphs on data bass were generated without the coloration of in room response.  Understandably things change in room, but I thought it might be helpful to look at these measured characteristics of s sub when looking for one to excel with music.  If you have more expertise in the matter, what would you specifically look for as far as measurements go when considering a musical, accurate sub if you wouldn't mind?


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post #15 of 42 Old 02-09-2014, 01:49 PM
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I was under the impression that these graphs on data bass were generated without the coloration of in room response. 
Correct. Measuring in-room is of no value, as every room is different.

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post #16 of 42 Old 02-09-2014, 02:13 PM
 
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Understandably things change in room, but I thought it might be helpful to look at these measured characteristics of s sub when looking for one to excel with music.

Things get esoteric real fast as one now begs the question of live vs recorded sound. How far does one wish to push this string as only a small portion of a music sound track is slave to a bass managed subwoofer system and then it becomes the purvey of room acoustics, the recording, the recording venue, the speakers, et cetera.

Just saying, accurate sound, is a very deep rabbit hole that can't leave everything else out as "accurate" is more of a "In for a penny, in for a pound" proposition.

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post #17 of 42 Old 02-09-2014, 02:23 PM
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Regardless, the op is looking for advice on how to research and decide on a sub that will be best for his needs.  Just trying to share the small tidbits I have learned that might help him make the most informed decision possible.  Some of the less considered graphs on sites such as data bass can help with this.  These forums tend to focus on maximum low frequency output for home theater, and max CEA2010 burst data is not always the answer for one seeking other objectives along with home theater as a side, less heavily weighted, objective.


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Regardless,.....

There is no regardless as my comments have context and without the intentionally included context, my comments are being intentionally distorted into something they aren't.
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ust trying to share the small tidbits I have learned that might help him make the most informed decision possible.

And if my comments are kept in the context they were posted, you'll see I'm doing exactly that. The difference between you and I, I don't go around stomping all over your posts because I have a differing view point. Why? Because I respect differing view points and unsolicited arguing only succeeds in dragging a thread off topic.

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You have a viewpoint, I have a viewpoint and everybody else has a viewpoint and sharing these viewpoints is what threads of this kind are all about.
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post #19 of 42 Old 02-09-2014, 02:29 PM
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Ok, then.  How about we post on topic with advice for the op then :)  Just so we don't get sidetracked.


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Ok, then.  How about we post on topic with advice for the op then smile.gif   Just so we don't get sidetracked.

Thanks! I would like that.
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I would go for a subwoofer with opposite facing dual drivers as a consideration for great power in a reasonable price point.

Martin logan's subs have been very good and REL have been quite good for the price as well.

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post #22 of 42 Old 02-09-2014, 11:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't say about musicality as my worry is reference level, home theater playback. When I listen to music, I have no complaints regarding the subwoofers but I don't have comparative critical listening to share an opinion other than I like what I hear. I have two FV15HPs for smoothness of bass, quantity of bass or loudness and the depth of extension two subs bring to the table vs one subwoofer.

BeeMan, 

Thanks for the information.  Always good to hear from people who are happy with a product.  I still wonder if 2 FV15HP's isn't more than I need.  Will it be too much for music or will they integrate well.  Good to know that you are happy with them for music.  I have no doubt they are great for theater.

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What I would look for in a sub that would be considered good for music would be a good looking waterfall plot, group delay, a good impulse response chart, low distortion, especially 3rd order harmonics and higher, as well as a linear response.  These are some of the things that should be considered when choosing a sub for accuracy and such, imo.

Bear,

This may all be a bit over my head.  I will certainly try to educate myself on these.  Can you name 2 or 3 subs that show good results on these.

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post #24 of 42 Old 02-09-2014, 11:30 PM - Thread Starter
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With a budget of $3K, I'd probably get dual Rythmik FV15HPs; at $2K, dual HSU VTF-15Hs. Honestly, I don't think you need to spend that much. Dual SVS PB-2000s, dual HSU VTF-3 MK4s, or dual PSA XV15s would do just fine in that space.

rnatalli,

Thanks.  I appreciate the suggestions.  I will definitely look into all of these options.  Do you have any experience with any of these to give me an idea as to the sound quality.  

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post #25 of 42 Old 02-09-2014, 11:42 PM - Thread Starter
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There are several options on the market that will suit your needs...start by emailing SVS, PSA, and Rythmik. I would look at all the little perks each company offers such as price, warranty, customer service, and fit/form/finish. I am a fan of ported, so I would look at the SVS PC12+, PSA XV30F, or Rythmik FV15HP. If HT was no concern and you were not really conerned with alot of output in the lower octaves then the SB13, XS30, or F15HP would be worth a look. I base this off of the fact that your room will not start offering any room gain until around 20hz and most sealed subs start to roll off around 30-35 hz, which could end up causing a loss of headroom after eq is applied to flatten the response.

I am in the process of emailing them.  Thanks for the suggestions.  I was thinking that sealed would offer the tight bass I was looking for.  If I understand what you are saying at lower levels eq would compensate for the roll off under 30 -35 hz but if I tried to play at higher levels then eq would not completely compensate.  I would be willing to trade some output for better quality at lower levels.  If the ported can offer the same sound quality at low to moderate levels and better output at high levels then I would definitely go that way.

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I still wonder if 2 FV15HP's isn't more than I need.  Will it be too much for music or will they integrate well.  Good to know that you are happy with them for music.  I have no doubt they are great for theater.

If all you listen to is music and all you want is some background noise, they're too much. If you want distortion free theater sound, they're exactly what you want. I can't call a middle ground as I'm an all or nothing type of personality.

Without a doubt, with effort on your part, they will integrate well. As to music, one has to remember, most music doesn't go below 31Hz so most any decent sub will get them where they want to go. The fly in the ointment, is home theater sound. If you want to be a part of the movie, then the output demands are that much more. The more one expects, the more distortion they have to worry about and in order to beat distortion, the ability of the sub has to increase considerably and to beat the FV15HP for output, one has to double their budget.

The point of the escalating ladder, at the price point, the FV15HP is the top dog and is an excellent subwoofer for music. This is why I post, music or home theater, pick one and let the other fall where it may. Subwoofer and music, in my opinion, easy. Home theater and distortion free output, hard. Hard equals expensive. Easy equals less expensive. That sort of thing.

The FV15HP is a special subwoofer as it inhabits both realms equally. You have to decide where you want to go and then without looking back, go there.
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post #27 of 42 Old 02-10-2014, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by rnatalli View Post

With a budget of $3K, I'd probably get dual Rythmik FV15HPs; at $2K, dual HSU VTF-15Hs. Honestly, I don't think you need to spend that much. Dual SVS PB-2000s, dual HSU VTF-3 MK4s, or dual PSA XV15s would do just fine in that space.

Agreed. Contrary to BeeMan (see his sig), I'll try to be a voice of reason, like rnatalli and eljay wink.gif

Audioholics rated the PB12-NSD, the recent predecessor of the PB-2000, as good for rooms for 3,000 to 5,000 cubic feet. HSU used to rate their VTF-3 MK3 for rooms up to 6,000 cubic feet (the newer MK4 is very similar)--click on the loudness level icon. Since you say you don't listen very loud, are not a basshead, AND you would be buying two, you would be fine with the recommendations rnatalli made.

Eljay made some great suggestions in post #3 that you might consider as well.

Dual SVS SB-2000s sealed subs would also be another consideration. Audioholics rated the SB-2000s predecessor, the SB12-NSD, as good for rooms 1500 to 3000 cubic feet. The new SB-2000s have a little more power and better extension down to 20hz. Once again, since you said you don't listen very loud AND you would be buying two, those should meet your expectations as well. And if not, then buy two more later and still be under your $3,000 max budget. Quad subs would give you lots of flexibility setting up your system (subs can be co-located/stacked if you like) smile.gif

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post #28 of 42 Old 02-10-2014, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Forgive me if I am wrong, but having a good waterfall plot has nothing to do with the sub, but everything to do with the room acoustics??? And Delays, impulse response are also nothing to do with the sub itself.

I hope you know what you are talking about?
See Ricci's testing at Data-Bass...the tests carried out did include waterfall and impulse. Each subwoofer has its own group delay-impulse response away from reflective boundaries. The room will further negate the issues that are inherently present in the sub if they are not accounted for (bass traps and other solutions). It is entirely possible to have good impulse response (subwoofer) in a bad acoustical environment or vice versa. You really want good impulse and good room acoustics (low RT60). Things such as carpeting, furniture, wall treatments, draperies, windows, etc. will all have an affect on RT 60. If the sub has bad impulse/delay and is put into a bad room, then it probably won't sound as tight or as musical as one would like. You might need a fair bit of signal processing to tame the undesirables.

Not to pontificate pompously or presumptiously, but sometimes it seems that we should remember that the room is as much a part of the final "deliverables" as the subwoofer. If you can start with a good room, then I think half the battle for good bass is won.wink.gif

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post #29 of 42 Old 02-10-2014, 07:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kramskoi View Post

Not to pontificate pompously or presumptiously, but sometimes it seems that we should remember that the room is as much a part of the final "deliverables" as the subwoofer. If you can start with a good room, then I think half the battle for good bass is won.wink.gif

In our case, we're boned as we're stuck with the room acoustics that we were blessed with. To compensate, we bought two subwoofers (both equipped with PEQ functions), the second subwoofer intended to aid with room smoothing issues as well as output issues to increase volume and improve on subwoofer created distortion characteristics. We also purchased an AVR that was equipped with Audyssey XT32/SubEQ HT to aid with EQ'g efforts and a universal blu-ray player to improve on sound track dynamics.

Two points, through extensive online research, I found sufficient quality bass traps and room treatment panels to be very expensive compared to the price of a second subwoofer and I find room treatments to be a distraction to the contemporary American living room aesthetic. If one wants to purchase a boatload of quality room treatments, I encourage them to do so. My point, there's an undiscussed aspect of room treatments as they do affect budget and room aesthetics and in my opinion, when discussing something as obtrusive and expensive as quality bass managing room treatments, these aspects of the purchase should be included in the conversation.

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post #30 of 42 Old 02-10-2014, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In our case, we're boned as we're stuck with the room acoustics that we were blessed with. To compensate, we bought two subwoofers (both equipped with PEQ functions), the second subwoofer intended to aid with room smoothing issues as well as output issues to increase volume and improve on subwoofer created distortion characteristics. We also purchased an AVR that was equipped with Audyssey XT32/SubEQ HT to aid with EQ'g efforts and a universal blu-ray player to improve on sound track dynamics.

Two points, through extensive online research, I found sufficient quality bass traps and room treatment panels to be very expensive compared to the price of a second subwoofer and I find room treatments to be a distraction to the contemporary American living room aesthetic. If one wants to purchase a boatload of quality room treatments, I encourage them to do so. My point, there's an undiscussed aspect of room treatments as they do affect budget and room aesthetics and in my opinion, when discussing something as obtrusive and expensive as quality bass managing room treatments, these aspects of the purchase should be included in the conversation.

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Take a look at my theater thread, i did a lot of room/wall work in order to sufficiently hide absorption and diffusive surfaces to get a compromise between looks and lowering the RT60 with out hard floors. The depth of Our bass frequency dips arent too bad with plenty of owens corning fiberglass panels.

As ethan weiner has said in other threads, you cant get rid if room modes, just tame them.

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