What can I expect if I were to run the subwoofers, 10dB hot over REW flat? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Vishwa Somayaji View Post

As you reach reference, there is no correction. On the other hand, if you run the subwoofer 10db hot after calibration, it will be 10db hot even at reference.

Agreed. That's why I set it up today to listen at -10dB MVC so the subwoofer channel is at reference but the dialogue/speakers are down -10dB so it's not too loud yet we get the full tactile sensation of reference level bass.
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post #32 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post


This makes sense, mine just seems to provide a substantial boost at fairly loud volumes, but I don't think I have gone all the way up to reference as it is just too loud.  However, I am not sure if I have an accurate picture of where reference level is on my avr.  Is it automatically at 0, or does some spl calibration need to be done to ensure that 0 is indeed reference.(I assume this is the case since SPL changes based on MLP distance)  So, my 0 may not be representing reference.

If you ran audyssey, then the ref is at 0. When it does the very first measurement it 'hears' from the main position, how loud your speaker sounds for a given signal level. It does it for each connected speaker. Based on that it sets the trim level of the speakers(some can b -3.5 others +2 etc) so that after the calibration when you set your volume to 0, it is reference(of course you have to be in the right scale as some receiver volumes can be set absolute or relative reference).
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post #33 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 02:43 PM
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Ah had not even thought about that.  I did run YPAO so I should be good.  Damn, reference is loud as hell.  I would not be surprised if my amp is clipping at that level(its a cheapie). 


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post #34 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 02:44 PM
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Or you could have just turned he mains and center down 10db. So when at reference you have the same effect. And aren't boosting anything. (Probably a safer idea and not using a ton if amp power on boosts)

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post #35 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

However, I am not sure if I have an accurate picture of where reference level is on my avr.  Is it automatically at 0, or does some spl calibration need to be done to ensure that 0 is indeed reference.(I assume this is the case since SPL changes based on MLP distance)  So, my 0 may not be representing reference.

The idea is to have reference level playback at the MLP when the (MVC) main volume control is set to +/-0dB. There is an assumption on the part of the AVR manufacture and that is, the AVR, speakers and subwoofers are capable of clean, reference level playback which is not always the case. As I post, I'm under the impression that you're already in command of the knowledge of what the THX standards, are for reference level playback.

As you pointed out, reference level playback is a bit loud for most people's tastes.

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post #36 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 02:52 PM
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My semi-educated guess is that my speakers are capable of clean reference level play at my LP, but maybe not with the receiver I have.  However, they do play clean to a louder volume than I care to listen, so an AVR upgrade is not on the horizon.  Upgrading the AVR would also mean completely relocating, rewiring, and most likely placing it into an A/V rack a considerable distance from where it is now.  I think I am rated at 70w/ch and speakers are around 88 dB sensitivity.  Although I don't normally listen that loud, I can listen to music at -5 for half a song or so with clarity, but sounds harsh at 0, which I assume means the AVR is probably out of steam by this point.


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post #37 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Although I don't normally listen that loud, I can listen to music at -5 for half a song or so with clarity, but sounds harsh at 0, which I assume means the AVR is probably out of steam by this point.

Or the speakers are compressing; maybe both the speakers and the receiver. I had to upgrade our AVR because it had the life sucked out of it at reference level playback. As good as it was (Marantz SR5007), as efficient as the front speakers are, 100dB/99dB, when the sound track ramped up, you could hear the speakers fall behind the subwoofers because the receiver just didn't have it in it to keep up. Fortunately for me, the wife was supportive of my excesses and I was able to upgrade to an AVR that has the ability to keep up.
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post #38 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 03:15 PM
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The main reason for 0 reference is so when discussing audio points, we have an accurate gauge to compare. Receivers can be set up with an ascending volume as well.

The end user is the one who calibrates reference, not the mfg. With every doubling of distance the SPL drops by 6db's. Now Audyssey, YPAO, MCACC, etc all take this into consideration automatically, but in the old days reference was setup with a calibration disc and db meter. I can make reference any number I want. I could set it up so -5 is reference.

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post #39 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Or the speakers are compressing;

You can usually tell the difference between compression and clipping. When the speakers are described as harsh, most of the time it's due to the latter.

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post #40 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

The main reason for 0 reference is so when discussing audio points, we have an accurate gauge to compare. Receivers can be set up with an ascending volume as well.

The end user is the one who calibrates reference, not the mfg. With every doubling of distance the SPL drops by 6db's. Now Audyssey, YPAO, MCACC, etc all take this into consideration automatically, but in the old days reference was setup with a calibration disc and db meter. I can make reference any number I want. I could set it up so -5 is reference.


One should be aware that receivers may not use 0 dBrl on the master volume readout as the calibrated "reference level" setting. My receiver's master volume control has to be set to -22 dBrl for the calibrated master volume setting.
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post #41 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


Or the speakers are compressing; maybe both the speakers and the receiver.

I assume the AVR, speakers are +/- 2 dB 60-20k Hz, 10-250w rms.  Most reviews I read before purchasing stated they were able to handle a tremendous amount of power without compressing, and I don't have much power.


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post #42 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

The end user is the one who calibrates reference, not the mfg.

I'm not sure where this comes from but reference is an industry wide, THX recording/playback standard and has nothing to do with EQ programs or the receiver manufactures. confused.gif

As end users, all we're doing is matching this already in place standard and then adjusting the final product to taste. Maybe that's what you're trying to post and I'm missing this point.

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post #43 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I'm not sure where this comes from but reference is an industry wide, THX recording/playback standard and has nothing to do with EQ programs or the receiver manufactures. confused.gif

As end users, all we're doing is matching this already in place standard and then adjusting the final product to taste. Maybe that's what you're trying to post and I'm missing this point.

-

You misunderstood.

I am fully aware of what "reference" is by industry standards.

My point is the mfg doesn't have a receiver programmed to reference. 0 on the dial is nothing more than a number. Reference is calibrated by the end user via the microphone or on older receivers an SPL meter.

Example: Someone who has speakers that are 85 db's efficient will have the receiver trim tabs turned up a lot more to reach reference than someone with 99db efficient speakers. It has nothing to do with adjusting product to taste. You are adjusting product to match reference based on your requirements.

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post #44 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

I assume the AVR, speakers are +/- 2 dB 60-20k Hz, 10-250w rms.  Most reviews I read before purchasing stated they were able to handle a tremendous amount of power without compressing, and I don't have much power.

Taking this point into consideration, then the AVR, being underpowered is showing it's dissatisfaction with being driven hard.

The AVR we recently replaced was spec'd at 100w but IIRC, it tested out at 85WPC, all channels driven and when reference level demands were put upon it, it would fall behind the subwoofers because it just couldn't keep up.
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post #45 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

It has nothing to do with adjusting product to taste. You are adjusting product to match reference based on your requirements.

The above for me is a bit confusing but that's not to say it's not right. I let Audyssey do it's thing and afterwards, with REW as my guide, gently season the settings to flat. Is that what you're saying?

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post #46 of 60 Old 02-14-2014, 10:11 AM
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Being a basshead myself, I'd still say that +10 is too much. Literally every movie scene will shake the floor. Like a small girl knocking on the door smile.gif

3-5 dB hot is fine.

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post #47 of 60 Old 02-14-2014, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by nexxest View Post

3-5 dB hot is fine.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll do some more experimentation today.

Just to be clear, what I'm trying to do is offset +/-0dB with -10dB MVC and in our case, I love the amount of bass we have at +/-0 MVC but I like the rest of the sound track at -10dB MVC. But at -10dB MVC, pretty much, I lose all the bass that we get at +/-0dB MVC or full on reference.

...confused.gif

Yesterday, I tried running the subs +10dB hot and loved it. I'll play with the volume today and see how your recommendation works with my issue.

Again, for regular programming, I set the subwoofer levels back to flat so the subwoofer levels are only jacked up for blu-ray movie sound track reproduction.
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post #48 of 60 Old 02-14-2014, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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nexxest, taking your comments in mind, this afternoon, I demo'd "Act Of Valor;" the insertion to extraction scene.

I ran the subs +5dB hot and was not happy. I ran the subs +7dB hot, still not happy. Found it to be a bit weak but liveable. I jacked the center channel up +3dB and left the sub's level where they were at +7dB and found the overall tactile feel of the LFE channel and the dialogue channel to be much more than acceptable.

Would I like more out of the deal? Absolutely. Would the wife like a whole lot less out of the deal, absolutely. So I think this will turn out to be an acceptable compromise between the wife and I with the MVC down -10dB, sub channel +7dB hot and the CC running an additional +3dB hot.

She'll be home Monday or Tuesday, at which point, I'll know if this is a workable compromise or not.

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post #49 of 60 Old 02-16-2014, 06:04 AM
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Beeman, as I understand it you have:

1. The subwoofer trim set 7 dB over the auto setup level

2. The center trim set 6 dB over the auto setup level

3. All other trims remain at the auto setup level

4. You use the DEQ function

5. The above setup is designed to playback 10 dB below your calibrated auto setup reference level.

6. Calibrated reference level is 0 on the master volume readout.


If I have made any errors, please correct me.
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post #50 of 60 Old 02-16-2014, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

If I have made any errors, please correct me.

(this is a moving target as I try various settings)

AVR is a Denon AVR4520CI. Universal blu-ray player Denon DBT-3313UDCI set to bitstream and the AVR decodes to PCM. XT32/SubEQ HT has been run. Used REW as a guide for final tuning. Final tuning includes the PEQ in each of the two subwoofer amplifiers. Results? Measures +/-3dB flat. Small unsmoothed dip at 52 Hz. All speakers set to small. All crossovers set to 80Hz.

Yesterday's lab: "Pacific Rim."

Ran the MVC at -17.5dBfs

Ran the subwoofer levels +10dB

Ran CC +6dB

Mains and surrounds, +/-0dB

What's up?

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(To those who care: Canada Geese flying North, currently overhead, so hopefully it will be an early Spring)

(We're in their flyway and see them going North and South each year)

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post #51 of 60 Old 02-16-2014, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


(this is a moving target as I try various settings)
(To those who care: Canada Geese flying North, currently overhead, so hopefully it will be an early Spring)
 

You're establishing your "house curve." No problem with that, since you're starting with a flat response and modifying it "to taste." 

Have fun!

 

And Spring will be very well received here, since NJ has gotten way more f*ing snow than we know what to do with.


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post #52 of 60 Old 02-16-2014, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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You're establishing your "house curve." No problem with that, since you're starting with a flat response and modifying it "to taste." 
Have fun!

Thanks. Nice to read I'm finally getting something right. biggrin.gif

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And Spring will be very well received here, since NJ has gotten way more f*ing snow than we know what to do with.

Send it to Northern California. We're at 2300', it's 07:35 and 44F/7C. No chance of snow (12% of normal) and little rain insight.

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post #53 of 60 Old 02-16-2014, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Thanks. Nice to read I'm finally getting something right. biggrin.gif

Let's see some graphs, or it doesn't count.

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post #54 of 60 Old 02-16-2014, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The measuring gear has been put away and is now doing dust gathering duty. All I have is before house curve graphs and I guess that makes them all out of date. eek.gif

Kr@p, now I'm back at not being able to do anything right. Well, even if it lasted but for a few seconds, it was nice while it lasted. Siiiigh!

...tongue.gif
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post #55 of 60 Old 02-16-2014, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

When discussing matters of personal preference, all we can do is to tell you about ours. Turn up the sub channel gain until you're happy. That is the correct setting. smile.gif

+1.
Bee.....I do the same. And with this approach my subs are collectively 10dB hotter than the rest of the speakers at -15 on MVC. Reference or preference, who cares? The subs should kick like a wild mustang at my reference volume and shouldn't run out of steam when transients kick in during movie playback.

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post #56 of 60 Old 02-16-2014, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

+1.
Bee.....I do the same. And with this approach my subs are collectively 10dB hotter than the rest of the speakers at -15 on MVC. Reference or preference, who cares? The subs should kick like a wild mustang at my reference volume and shouldn't run out of steam when transients kick in during movie playback.

Then I'm in good company as currently I'm going with +10dB hot at -17.5dB MVC and yes, with this setting there's plenty of rumbling going on......"I like it."

...tongue.gif

This is all new territory for me so I appreciate all the input.

(FWIW, I dial things back for regular cable programming)

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post #57 of 60 Old 03-01-2014, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

(this is a moving target as I try various settings)

AVR is a Denon AVR4520CI. Universal blu-ray player Denon DBT-3313UDCI set to bitstream and the AVR decodes to PCM. XT32/SubEQ HT has been run. Used REW as a guide for final tuning. Final tuning includes the PEQ in each of the two subwoofer amplifiers. Results? Measures +/-3dB flat. Small unsmoothed dip at 52 Hz. All speakers set to small. All crossovers set to 80Hz.

Yesterday's lab: "Pacific Rim."

Ran the MVC at -17.5dBfs

Ran the subwoofer levels +10dB

Ran CC +6dB

Mains and surrounds, +/-0dB

What's up?

-

I just came across this thread via the REW one, so apologies for the late arrival. All I wanted to say was that the bit I've bolded above may be worth altering: I know it's a kind of defacto standard to put speakers at 80Hz crossover, but I've found it's well worth trying higher settings, especially at the front. While the sub can start to become more localised, so long as the surrounds remain around 80Hz (assuming they are capable) then the surround effect doesn't 'move' towards the subs.It helps if the sub is at the front of the room as well, though this seems to be a popular arrangement anyway It does require an AVR that allows crossovers to be set individually of course, so if it's a global setting then you're far more restricted.

I've recently set up my new MK Sound MP150 series speakers and a pair of DIY 15" sealed subs. I have an Onkyo 818 AVR with XT 32 and a Beringer sub amp with DSP for additional Pre (and Post) Audyssey tweaking. However what I found with the aid of REW is that the crossover set by my AVR (70Hz for centre and fronts) was simply too low. The REW results confirmed this as a dip especially in the 'bass presence' range around 100Hz making the sound seem 'lightweight', raising them to 80Hz still didn't sound right either.

I ran REW measurements increasing the crossover one step at a time and ended up with it set to 150Hz. This might seem high considering they are £1000 each speakers, but no point being 'macho' about the crossover setting if it doesn't sound right. FWIW I left my surrounds at 80Hz (up from the same 70Hz set by the AVR) so that the surround effect doesn't become shifted to the subs.

Anyway, enough waffle, some REW responses just to show what I measured and perhaps give something for you to try (even without REW I could hear that it sounded better).


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post #58 of 60 Old 03-01-2014, 07:35 AM
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^ As you note, sound becomes localizable above 80 Hz. The frequency range of adult male voices is around 85 to 180 Hz. Setting your crossovers to 150 Hz means that male voices will primarily be reproduced by the sub and they may be localizable. Another issue is that many sub aficionados prefer to run their subs hot. With a 150 Hz crossover, doing this would emphasize frequencies that are too high, including the adult male vocal region. So despite the fact that your FR chart looks smoother if the sub covers the 80 - 150 Hz region, I think that the cons of this configuration would outweigh the benefits.
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post #59 of 60 Old 03-01-2014, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I just came across this thread via the REW one, so apologies for the late arrival. All I wanted to say was that the bit I've bolded above may be worth altering: I know it's a kind of defacto standard to put speakers at 80Hz crossover, but I've found it's well worth trying higher settings, especially at the front. While the sub can start to become more localised, so long as the surrounds remain around 80Hz (assuming they are capable) then the surround effect doesn't 'move' towards the subs.It helps if the sub is at the front of the room as well, though this seems to be a popular arrangement anyway It does require an AVR that allows crossovers to be set individually of course, so if it's a global setting then you're far more restricted.

I've recently set up my new MK Sound MP150 series speakers and a pair of DIY 15" sealed subs. I have an Onkyo 818 AVR with XT 32 and a Beringer sub amp with DSP for additional Pre (and Post) Audyssey tweaking. However what I found with the aid of REW is that the crossover set by my AVR (70Hz for centre and fronts) was simply too low. The REW results confirmed this as a dip especially in the 'bass presence' range around 100Hz making the sound seem 'lightweight', raising them to 80Hz still didn't sound right either.

I ran REW measurements increasing the crossover one step at a time and ended up with it set to 150Hz. This might seem high considering they are £1000 each speakers, but no point being 'macho' about the crossover setting if it doesn't sound right. FWIW I left my surrounds at 80Hz (up from the same 70Hz set by the AVR) so that the surround effect doesn't become shifted to the subs.

Anyway, enough waffle, some REW responses just to show what I measured and perhaps give something for you to try (even without REW I could hear that it sounded better).



You might be benefit with sub distances tweak. It works for me with 80hz Xover. Here is my graph. Green= Audyssey set distances; Blue= subs distance tweak. Ignore the pink one.
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post #60 of 60 Old 03-01-2014, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

^ As you note, sound becomes localizable above 80 Hz. The frequency range of adult male voices is around 85 to 180 Hz. Setting your crossovers to 150 Hz means that male voices will primarily be reproduced by the sub and they may be localizable. Another issue is that many sub aficionados prefer to run their subs hot. With a 150 Hz crossover, doing this would emphasize frequencies that are too high, including the adult male vocal region. So despite the fact that your FR chart looks smoother if the sub covers the 80 - 150 Hz region, I think that the cons of this configuration would outweigh the benefits.

I simply find that it sounds better to me set this way, I don't notice any localisation either, but I suspect this is because the subs are sealed.The bass just seems to come from the front centre speaker (even when I was using a phantom centre until I recently added the final MP150 that I'd been saving up for; I don't believe in credit, so I had a long wait). I think it helps that I've got pretty decent subs (even if they are DIY) so it helps that they are able to reproduce that important male voice frequency range cleanly as I'm well inside the Xmax of the sub drivers even at reference. Note that I just raised the surround's crossover from 70 to 80Hz so that the surround effects don't appear to come from the sub(s).

As I said, I know that for some it is a defacto standard to use 80Hz, but as I've found using a higher crossover simply sounds much better in my set up. It was just a suggestion to the OP that it might be worth trying since he seems to be using fairly extreme adjustments anyway, no harm in trying higher than 'THX' setting. Maybe even 90/100Hz might make a difference. that he's happy with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

You might be benefit with sub distances tweak. It works for me with 80hz Xover. Here is my graph. Green= Audyssey set distances; Blue= subs distance tweak. Ignore the pink one.

Yes, on other REW charts I've tried different sub distance settings in my AVR (a single setting shared between the two subs) plus also using the separate delay in my sub amp's DSP as my subs aren't equidistant from the MLP. I settled on a 1.5 metre delay to the closer rear sub, but trying different sub distances in the AVR from that set by Audyssey actually gave a worse result, so I reset it back to the post Audyssey setting. Believe me I've tried just about every possible combination of distance, rear sub delay and crossover to achieve that great response I posted further up.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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