What can I expect if I were to run the subwoofers, 10dB hot over REW flat? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I realize that a question of this kind can easily be answered by just making the adjustment but a simple adjustment and running a demo scene expectedly won't give me the full story. I'm wondering about this question as I get fabulous bass when running at full on reference but it's doesn't rumble and roll the room the way I want at -10dB or -15dB MVC.

I'd like to be able to turn the volume down a bit and hold onto the wonderful bass I get at +/-0dB MVC.

Suggestions? Input? Need more data.

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post #2 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 07:13 PM
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Do you have dynamic EQ turned on? That will help when volume is below reference.

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post #3 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks, DEQ is turned on. Dynamic Volume is turned off. Would that help?
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post #4 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 07:37 PM
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I do not use dynamic volume. It adjust your volume for say night time listening if children are sleeping and such. At least that is my impression.

Wondering if you went into your AVR and went to speaker set up and then channel level and raised sub 1+2 by 3 dB's if that would help you some.

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post #5 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 07:37 PM
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It's impossible to know how powerful explosions should sound. I find it far easier to judge if the low end is boosted too much relative to higher frequencies when listening to music. 8 dB seems to be the right degree of "hotness" for my taste. Going hotter than that in the low end, depending on source material, can make the bass sound over-emphasized. The Eagles Farewell I Tour Blu-ray has reference quality audio with a solid low end. That's my favorite source for determining how hot to run.

I use 80 Hz crossover points and leave Audyssey's Dynamic EQ disabled. Using different settings for those may affect your decision on how hot to run. Dynamic EQ dynamically shifts the soundstage between the front & surround speakers based on the volume at any given moment, so that aspect of Dynamic EQ ruins the feature for me. YMMV.
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post #6 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 07:42 PM
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Some good info over on the JTR thread about dynamic EQ. JTR thread about Dynamic EQ and Audyssey

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post #7 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 07:49 PM
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^ Craig describes what DEQ does to the EQ, but he doesn't touch on what it also does to the soundstage.
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post #8 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks guys. DEQ was already on, as has been suggested. And for the reason mentioned, (compressing the sound track, stealing dynamics in the process) Dynamic Volume (DV) has always been turned off. In the case of blu-ray movie sound tracks, I'd love to be able to get the rumble and roll of reference level playback but I'd also like to do so at -15dB to -10dB MVC.

Are my expectations out of whack by having too high of expectations? Am I just being greedy? I'd like to believe that my expectations are reasonable and not overly expecting.
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post #9 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 08:24 PM
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+10 db = Happiness !!!
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post #10 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 08:25 PM
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You have enough head room just do it already...turn off all the dynamic BS, crank the subs up 6-8db and report back.
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post #11 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 08:26 PM
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+10 dB is a lot of boost, and requires 10 times the power relative to 0 dB. That seems excessive to me. More common is a boost of 3 dB or so, which still takes twice the power.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #12 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 08:29 PM
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When discussing matters of personal preference, all we can do is to tell you about ours. Turn up the sub channel gain until you're happy. That is the correct setting. smile.gif
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post #13 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 08:31 PM
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I run my at 8 db hot over addsey flat. I'm in same situation as you, we listen at -15 to -20 depending on movie, anything louder is just to much in my theater. I also like to be a little bass heavy and figure they would be this loud at 0 so why not just get them there a little faster. I have come to the realization that I've been babying my subs. Not any more I'm letting them rip. biggrin.gif
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post #14 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 08:42 PM
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I don't like the sound of Dynamic EQ. Depending on the movie, I raise sub 1+2 by 3-6 db. +10db will make it bass heavy which sounds like something you may like smile.gif Easiest way is to try. I would make sure that you have enough head room since you will be listening to reference bass while you are at -10db.
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post #15 of 60 Old 02-12-2014, 09:12 PM
 
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Bee,
Time to add a third sub smile.gif or perhaps you might prefer a low-shelf house curve over flat response.
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post #16 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassoholic View Post

Bee,
Time to add a third sub smile.gif or perhaps you might prefer a low-shelf house curve over flat response.

Don't think a third sub would help as my understanding a third sub adds about 3dB and not much more but does help with smoothing issues.

Can you describe what a "low-shelf house curve" is?
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post #17 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 02:42 PM
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Hey Bee, I am sorry to mention something that may sound insulting, but sometimes the little things can get overlooked.  When you calibrate(d) your system for reference level listening, did you do so with Dynamic EQ off or on?  I am thinking, if you did so with it on, then you are not getting the low volume boost that you should, since you have it calibrated that way.

 

If however, you have things calibrated with this feature off, then of course you should be getting a substantial bass boost at lower volumes.

 

Maybe Dyn EQ does not boost as much as Yamaha's version does, but Yamaha version offers a very noticeable and substantial boost for bass at lower volumes.


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post #18 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 02:55 PM
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I have mine with dynEQ on and at -20 I still get plenty of tactile feel. It's a great tool IMHO

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post #19 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Hey Bee, I am sorry to mention something that may sound insulting, but sometimes the little things can get overlooked.  When you calibrate(d) your system for reference level listening, did you do so with Dynamic EQ off or on?

Thanks for the thought. Audyssey neuters all settings and from measurements, recommends settings to the AVR. At the end of the calibration process, Audyssey goes so far as to ask if the user would like DEQ to be turned on or left off.

Currently, with bass being run +10dB hot and the volume being turned down -10dB, sound comes across as one would expect sound, to sound. Just finished watching the last few scenes in "Unstoppable." Very nice. Dialogue runs about 75dB to 92dB and bass runs up between 100dB and 111.0dB. This is the sweetest balance I've had so far. I haven't listened to cable broadcast but I'm sure I'll have to dial it back down for regular programming.

I've listened to three movies now ("Getaway," "FOTP" and "Unstoppable") and all the results were the same: excellent.
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post #20 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 02:58 PM
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It doesn't matter whether dynamic eq was on or off. When the calibration is done, the program takes care of it and turns off everything and then at the end gives a choice of turning it on or off. However, according to Chris at Audyssey, you are not supposed to be able to turn on dyn.eq without audyssey. Onkyo somehow allows it while others don't.
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post #21 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have mine with dynEQ on and at -20 I still get plenty of tactile feel. It's a great tool IMHO

I wish I was as fortunate but no such luck. The good news, adjusted the way it is, seems to have cured the bass cold the system was having. No idea what is/was going wrong but it's working the way I'd expect things to work. When the wife gets home, I'll run it past her and see if it works for here as she's the final arbiter on matters of this kind.

(it's too loud! turn it down!)
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post #22 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I wish I was as fortunate but no such luck. The good news, adjusted the way it is, seems to have cured the bass cold the system was having. No idea what is/was going wrong but it's working the way I'd expect things to work. When the wife gets home, I'll run it past her and see if it works for here as she's the final arbiter on matters of this kind.

(it's too loud! turn it down!)
That stinks. But all the power to you. It's all about what sounds best to YOU. Not what "reference" tells us. That's the beauty of audio. It's highly subjective individual to individual.

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post #23 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That stinks. But all the power to you.

Thanks!
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post #24 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 03:03 PM
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It doesn't matter whether dynamic eq was on or off. When the calibration is done, the program takes care of it and turns off everything and then at the end gives a choice of turning it on or off. However, according to Chris at Audyssey, you are not supposed to be able to turn on dyn.eq without audyssey. Onkyo somehow allows it while others don't.


Typically, it seems as though many correction programs tend to set subwoofer levels much lower than where most people want them.  My thought of what could have possibly happened was, after running Audysey, if the user turns on Dyn Eq, adjusts the volume to reference, then adjusts their subwoofer gain to where it sounds good, then this feature would obviously provide no benefit at lower volume.

 

Just thought it was worth a shot to see if this might have happened.

 

I suppose a clearer way to phrase my question to Bee is, "When listening at reference level, is DynEq on or off.  If it is on, then perhaps you have your sub gain manually adjusted to sound correct with it on.  This would of course negate the effect of using it at lower volume"


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post #25 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 03:05 PM
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Yeah I took my REW and went from completely flat to a house curve with the low end boosted about 3db. I love it that way. It may not be they way it's supposed to be. But it's what I want and love! Sounds like you are now in a very similar situation. Bravo for finding it (it's not easy thing to do)

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post #26 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just thought it was worth a shot to see if this might have happened.

As the saying goes: "It's worth a shot."

Based on what I read here and what I tried, things turned out great.
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post #27 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah I took my REW and went from completely flat to a house curve with the low end boosted about 3db.

Currently, the subs are jacked up +13dB.........eek.gif and the CC is jacked up +3dB.

I'm so ashamed. redface.gif

...biggrin.gif

(still have to wait for the wife to get home as her ears are very whiny and complainy and she just doesn't appreciate things reference loud)

The next scene to be watched will be "Act of Valor;" the insertion and extraction scene.....HALO jump to SWCC boat extraction.

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post #28 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 03:28 PM
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I suppose a clearer way to phrase my question to Bee is, "When listening at reference level, is DynEq on or off.  If it is on, then perhaps you have your sub gain manually adjusted to sound correct with it on.  This would of course negate the effect of using it at lower volume"

By the way audyssey is desingned, at ref level dyn eq is off even if it is turned on. Dyn eq compensates for the way human hearing loses sensitivity as the frequency goes down when the program material is played lower than reference--in other words, it makes progressively increasing correction as you lower the volume from reference. As you reach reference, there is no correction. On the other hand, if you run the subwoofer 10db hot after calibration, it will be 10db hot even at reference.
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post #29 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vishwa Somayaji View Post


By the way audyssey is desingned, at ref level dyn eq is off even if it is turned on. Dyn eq compensates for the way human hearing loses sensitivity as the frequency goes down when the program material is played lower than reference--in other words, it makes progressively increasing correction as you lower the volume from reference. As you reach reference, there is no correction. On the other hand, if you run the subwoofer 10db hot after calibration, it will be 10db hot even at reference.


This makes sense, mine just seems to provide a substantial boost at fairly loud volumes, but I don't think I have gone all the way up to reference as it is just too loud.  However, I am not sure if I have an accurate picture of where reference level is on my avr.  Is it automatically at 0, or does some spl calibration need to be done to ensure that 0 is indeed reference.(I assume this is the case since SPL changes based on MLP distance)  So, my 0 may not be representing reference.


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post #30 of 60 Old 02-13-2014, 03:35 PM
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If using audyssey. Yes 0 is reference (as long as you have it set to show on a dB seething for volume )

I have measured the dynEQ with REW. In fact the further from 0 you are the more boost in both the sub and surrounds. At least in relation to the mains.

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