another comparison thread...Rythmik LV12R vs. SVS PB12-NSD - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 48 Old 02-14-2014, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Apologies for yet another "help me choose between competing alternatives" thread. I was pretty close to ordering a Rythmik LV12R, but with the SVS PB12-NSD now on sale for the same price, I'm torn.

Intended use is for a 50/50 mix of music and movies. I care about musicality (I know that's a controversial term around here, because arguably it really means accuracy, and we all care about accuracy) a lot, and I'm the rare breed who actually listen to classical organ music on occasion.

I have an open floor plan so I have ~4500 cubic feet to pressurize. I recognize that if I want the ability to produce high SPLs and want to pressurize the room for tactile feel during movies, I'd need to go with much more robust options, e.g. at least a single Rythmik FV15HP and maybe a pair of them. But I'd like to keep the budget much more modest. My sense is that a more modest sub will produce satisfying bass for music and, similarly, significantly enhance the movie experience, even if it doesn't really shake the room the way a more powerful option would (feel free to correct my perception if that seems off).

For now, the sub would be used either with a pair of Focal Tantal bookshelf speakers driven by an NAD two-channel amp or with a pair of internally powered Audioengine A5+s, which I've been using for home theater and with which I'm surprisingly happy (ignorance is bliss?). Down the road, at some point I'll likely upgrade to a proper 5.1 home theater setup, likely based on the Pioneer Andrew Jones speakers and a modestly priced home theater receiver. I have the Benq W1070 projector projecting onto a nice screen I managed to pick up used, a setup that involves some trade-offs but with which I'm very happy.

It's not that I couldn't allocate more to the home theater budget, rather that this seems like a reasonable amount to allocate. I also don't really suffer from upgraditis (which arguably makes me a rare breed around here), I've had that Focal/NAD two-channel system (which I picked very carefully based on lots of auditioning) for 15 years and remain very happy with it.

I was leaning toward the LV12R because I like what I've read in formal and informal reviews, especially in terms of accuracy, the servo technology appeals to my techie side, and my sense was that it would be adequate to my needs and expectations even in my rather large space.

But with the PB12-NSD at the same price, I wonder if it'll do a meaningfully better job of filling my space, and lack of servo technology aside, I have the impression the quality of the driver in the SVS is meaningfully better, and of course SVS' very liberal return and upgrade policies and robust warranty aren't irrelevant either. The high-pass filter in the SVS is a nice add-on too, since I could use it to send only 80hz and up to the Focal bookshelves (though I wonder how much I'll like that setup for, say, cello music (with which the Focals excel, maybe not surprisingly since their combined volume is about the same as a cello), and it would get annoying to have to switch around the wires regularly)

So...aside from "Rythmik rocks" or "SVS rocks" or "you can't go wrong either way," any feedback for me? Appreciated!

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post #2 of 48 Old 02-14-2014, 02:59 PM
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Definitely. The SVS 80hz line out high pass filter is a good option. I have the SVS SB-1000 and use that with my speakers and HK 3390 to set the crossover at 80hz. Great integration. Then the limiter is nice protection from over driving your sub.

If you are concerned about the PB12 filling your space, Josh Ricci certified the PB12 as good for rooms from 3,000 to 5,000 cubic feet in his review. He's the guy that posted all these subwoofer measurements that everyone likes to reference around here. smile.gif

Unfortunately, I've never seen anyone directly compare the LV12R and the PB12. I don't think that's a problem. Once you get up into the 12" ported Internet direct sub class that is popular here on AVS, the SQ of the subs is going to be way more similar than different, and your room acoustics and personal listening tastes will have such a great impact that trying to decide which has the better sounding driver is probably a wasted effort unless you can compare them directly yourself. Go with what we know: measurements, features, and customer support/warranty.

Given SVS's in home trial, I say pull the trigger and return it if doesn't meet your expectations. And if doesn't, you'll need to save up more money, because it's highly unlikely that the LV12R will be significantly better. That being said, as an owner of several ID subs, they are every bit as good as people say that they are. I'm sure you'll like whichever one you get smile.gif

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post #3 of 48 Old 02-14-2014, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Definitely. The SVS 80hz line out high pass filter is a good option. I have the SVS SB-1000 and use that with my speakers and HK 3390 to set the crossover at 80hz. Great integration. Then the limiter is nice protection from over driving your sub.

If you are concerned about the PB12 filling your space, Josh Ricci certified the PB12 as good for rooms from 3,000 to 5,000 cubic feet in his review. He's the guy that posted all these subwoofer measurements that everyone likes to reference around here. smile.gif

Unfortunately, I've never seen anyone directly compare the LV12R and the PB12. I don't think that's a problem. Once you get up into the 12" ported Internet direct sub class that is popular here on AVS, the SQ of the subs is going to be way more similar than different, and your room acoustics and personal listening tastes will have such a great impact that trying to decide which has the better sounding driver is probably a wasted effort unless you can compare them directly yourself. Go with what we know: measurements, features, and customer support/warranty.

Given SVS's in home trial, I say pull the trigger and return it if doesn't meet your expectations. And if doesn't, you'll need to save up more money, because it's highly unlikely that the LV12R will be significantly better. That being said, as an owner of several ID subs, they are every bit as good as people say that they are. I'm sure you'll like whichever one you get smile.gif

Sounds like you're suggested the PB12-NSD and LV12R are likely to have similar output? If that's the case, I'd probably lean LV12R, though agreed the return/upgrade option on the PB12 is nice.

I also have slight hesitation about going with one or even two subs of this caliber in my rather large space, because so many people here are so dismissive of that. Does an underpowered sub in a large space give decent sound, just at less SPL/intensity, or does it give thin/anemic sound? Perhaps that's too subjective a question, but that's what I'm grappling with at this point.

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post #4 of 48 Old 02-14-2014, 03:32 PM
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Sounds like you're suggested the PB12-NSD and LV12R are likely to have similar output? If that's the case, I'd probably lean LV12R, though agreed the return/upgrade option on the PB12 is nice.

Not exactly. I think they are probably more similar in SQ than different. We don't have any good pro measurements of the LV12R, so it's impossible to know for certain what it can do in max output, whereas the PB12 is a known with the measurements by Josh Ricci. With a room the size of yours, if max output is the primary factor, I'd go with the known smile.gif

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post #5 of 48 Old 02-14-2014, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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What if, in light of my 4500 cubic foot space, I were going to trash my budget and go with something like the FV15HP? How would you compare a single FV15HP (no way duals of that are happening) to dual LV12Rs or dual PB12-NSDs when trying to fill a large space? I'm not too worried about coverage for multiple listening positions, I just have a single couch and the vast majority of my usage involves just one or two people on that couch.

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post #6 of 48 Old 02-14-2014, 04:07 PM
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I would go with dual 12" speakers. Duals have the potential to smooth the frequency response. I have dual subs in my living room. Glad I went with that smile.gif

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post #7 of 48 Old 02-15-2014, 08:17 PM
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If you have just one main seating area then I would go with a FV15HP. I have one in a 5000+ cu ft space and it rocks it. I bet you would need 3 or more LV12R's (or PB12NSD) to match the output of a single FV15HP. My thoughts when going with the FV15HP was to save and buy the top model instead of buying and selling mid level subs to get to the top (and losing money on the way).
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post #8 of 48 Old 02-15-2014, 10:33 PM
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It really depends on your room when comparing a single set up to a dual set up. At 20hz the PB12 is rated at 103db. The FV15HP is rated at 108DB. It would take 2.5 PB12's to equal one FV15HP at 20hz. In the midbass region 31.5hz on up it would take 3 PB12's to equal the output of one FV15HP.

Between dual LV12R's or PB12-NSD's, Its tough not favor the PB12. As stated by CEL4145, the PB12 has been tested by a 3rd party not only to validate its performance but also build quality. Even then if all things are equal between the PB12 and LV12R (performance, SQ, build) the SVS offers a unique bill of rights that is unmatched by any other ID company including Rythmik.


Audioholics had this to say in their conclusion of the PB12-NSD review: http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/pb12-nsd/pb12-nsd-conclusion
The SVS PB12-NSD receives the Audioholics Bassoholic Large Room rating, which means that this sub is recommended as maintaining adequate headroom in rooms or spaces of between 3,000 to 5,000 cubic feet and/or for users who usually listen at moderate to high volume levels.

First choice, FV15HP 2nd SVS PB12NSD Third LV12R
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post #9 of 48 Old 02-16-2014, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by deepat04 View Post

Between dual LV12R's or PB12-NSD's, Its tough not favor the PB12. As stated by CEL4145, the PB12 has been tested by a 3rd party not only to validate its performance but also build quality. Even then if all things are equal between the PB12 and LV12R (performance, SQ, build) the SVS offers a unique bill of rights that is unmatched by any other ID company including Rythmik.

I don't doubt that the LV12R has good build quality. But the PB12 has a solid set of measurements where we know what it can do; the LV12R is more of a mystery.

And I agree. Read through the SVS bill of rights. For some buyers, that could be an important decision factor.

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post #10 of 48 Old 02-16-2014, 06:06 AM
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So how much longer are you guys going to tout SVS's 'Bill of Rights'? It is hardly anything more than the services offered by any of these other sub companies, they just don't market their customer service is such a ridiculous way, as though they are special somehow. I like how the sub being discussed actually debunks one of SVS's 'rights', the performance guarantee, "If SVS improves the performance of a model you purchased, we will upgrade it to current standards at no charge within 1 year of your purchase." The PB2000 is merely a slightly improved PB12 NSD, and to get around their 'performance guarantee', SVS simply renames the improvements like it was a whole new sub. I will give them credit, that is a clever dodge around their own promise that saved them quite a bit of money, but if I were a PB12 NSD owner, I would feel a bit cheated.
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

So how much longer are you guys going to tout SVS's 'Bill of Rights'? It is hardly anything more than the services offered by any of these other sub companies, they just don't market their customer service is such a ridiculous way, as though they are special somehow. I like how the sub being discussed actually debunks one of SVS's 'rights', the performance guarantee, "If SVS improves the performance of a model you purchased, we will upgrade it to current standards at no charge within 1 year of your purchase." The PB2000 is merely a slightly improved PB12 NSD, and to get around their 'performance guarantee', SVS simply renames the improvements like it was a whole new sub. I will give them credit, that is a clever dodge around their own promise that saved them quite a bit of money, but if I were a PB12 NSD owner, I would feel a bit cheated.

We all feel cheated when buying electronics. There's no way around the next big thing. Just be happy with what you have. There will always be better. Why I purchased the pb12-nsd was the one year upgrade option
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post #12 of 48 Old 02-16-2014, 06:32 AM
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So how much longer are you guys going to tout SVS's 'Bill of Rights'?

Pointing it out to someone as something they could consider is hardly "touting" it.
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We all feel cheated when buying electronics. There's no way around the next big thing. Just be happy with what you have. There will always be better. Why I purchased the pb12-nsd was the one year upgrade option

I think he's might be upset because he owns the HSU VTF-3 MK3, and HSU "upgraded" their subs by adding some minor features and he didn't have any kind of tradeup option.

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post #13 of 48 Old 02-16-2014, 07:15 AM
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Pointing it out to someone as something they could consider is hardly "touting" it.
Lol, let's be honest, you were touting it.
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I think he's might be upset because he owns the HSU VTF-3 MK3, and HSU "upgraded" their subs by adding some minor features and he didn't have any kind of tradeup option.
The difference is Hsu does not promise a free upgrade for the same model, because that is a very expensive promise to make. Or you could just make that promise and weasel out of it through a technicality like SVS has done. As for a trade up option, that is a cheezy way of locking a customer into a single brand. Its a great thing to do if you promise yourself not to buy from any other manufacturers, thereby closing yourself off from many other great and often better options. I don't see that as all that advantageous.
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post #14 of 48 Old 02-16-2014, 07:35 AM
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Lol, let's be honest, you were touting it.

Not even close to as much as you are ranting against it. wink.gif

It might not be a big upgrade in performance, but SVS has already explained that it's a whole new sub design: "Compared to the PB12-NSD, the PB-2000 has a different cabinet and finish, a new more powerful amp, and a new driver."

So it's not a minor tweak to one component in the PB12. It's a redesign. I think it's pretty unreasonable for someone to expect an upgrade for free in that situation under the terms of the SVS Bill of Rights. It's called a "1-YEAR PERFORMANCE GUARANTEE," which seems aimed to me at protecting someone from their being a performance problem which is addressed in a minor update to a model line.

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Lol, let's be honest, you were touting it.
The difference is Hsu does not promise a free upgrade for the same model, because that is a very expensive promise to make. Or you could just make that promise and weasel out of it through a technicality like SVS has done. As for a trade up option, that is a cheezy way of locking a customer into a single brand. Its a great thing to do if you promise yourself not to buy from any other manufacturers, thereby closing yourself off from many other great and often better options. I don't see that as all that advantageous.

I don't see it as a way of locking a customer into a single brand. It just gives you the "option" to upgrade if desire. If you don't want to continue with SVS brand, sell it and change to another brand. Same thing can be said of other ID manufactures. I've never heard of the "free upgrade" from SVS, but that's a gray line of what is considered an "upgrade." I don't think consumers buy expecting a "free upgrade" anyways
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So how much longer are you guys going to tout SVS's 'Bill of Rights'? It is hardly anything more than the services offered by any of these other sub companies, they just don't market their customer service is such a ridiculous way, as though they are special somehow. I like how the sub being discussed actually debunks one of SVS's 'rights', the performance guarantee, "If SVS improves the performance of a model you purchased, we will upgrade it to current standards at no charge within 1 year of your purchase." The PB2000 is merely a slightly improved PB12 NSD, and to get around their 'performance guarantee', SVS simply renames the improvements like it was a whole new sub. I will give them credit, that is a clever dodge around their own promise that saved them quite a bit of money, but if I were a PB12 NSD owner, I would feel a bit cheated.

Troll much?
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post #17 of 48 Old 02-16-2014, 11:02 AM
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It might not be a big upgrade in performance, but SVS has already explained that it's a whole new sub design: "Compared to the PB12-NSD, the PB-2000 has a different cabinet and finish, a new more powerful amp, and a new driver."

So it's not a minor tweak to one component in the PB12. It's a redesign. I think it's pretty unreasonable for someone to expect an upgrade for free in that situation under the terms of the SVS Bill of Rights. It's called a "1-YEAR PERFORMANCE GUARANTEE," which seems aimed to me at protecting someone from their being a performance problem which is addressed in a minor update to a model line.

Now you are arguing disingenuously. The cabinet volume of the subs are the same. The port diameter is the same, maybe the 2000's is slightly longer for deeper tuning. It's mostly the same sub, just tweaked. If they called it the NSD everyone who bought the NSD would be entitled to that upgrade under SVS's bill of rights. It occupies the same exact place in their model line-up. I quoted from the SVS's bill of rights in context, there is no 'seems' about it, it is very clear on what is meant. I don't know how you can argue it is a whole different sub, its the same thing just flipped upside down and slightly improved.
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I have to say I can see Shady's point to a degree.  They upgraded the driver and amp on the PB12, and changed the finish.  Granted, the front panel is flipped with woofer high and port low.  I can see both sides.


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post #19 of 48 Old 02-16-2014, 11:39 AM
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Now you are arguing disingenuously.

That is completely out of line. I OWN an SVS sub. If they came out with a new model to replace the SB-1000 that had better 20hz extension, a little more output, new enclosure aesthetics, a new driver and an amp update, I WOULD NOT expect them to give me a whole new sub. I'd have to be some kind of moron or cheap bastard to expect that based on that policy. mad.gif

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post #20 of 48 Old 02-16-2014, 12:39 PM
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That is completely out of line. I OWN an SVS sub. If they came out with a new model to replace the SB-1000 that had better 20hz extension, a little more output, new enclosure aesthetics, a new driver and an amp update, I WOULD NOT expect them to give me a whole new sub. I'd have to be some kind of moron or cheap bastard to expect that based on that policy. mad.gif

I agree with you here to a point, but the thing is, everything that changed going from the NSD to the 2000 was minor. Lots of changes, yes, but all very minor. This isn't a whole new sub or a completely different sub. You might stop to think that this was all done precisely to avoid having to give out upgrades to everyone who bought a NSD within the last year, as that would be extraordinarily expensive. Think about this, the older NSD underwent a more drastic revision when they changed the cabinet, the amp, and likely other things when they made the switch from BASH to the Sledge amps. That was a more significant change than the switch to the PB2000, but they still kept the name PB12-NSD. But then again, back then there wasn't an official 'free upgrades for a year' policy, as far as I know.
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Just don't buy anything expecting to receive a "free upgrade" and everyone will be happy even when their policy states it. There's always a fine line on what is considered "upgrade."
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post #22 of 48 Old 02-16-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I agree with you here to a point, but the thing is, everything that changed going from the NSD to the 2000 was minor. Lots of changes, yes, but all very minor. This isn't a whole new sub or a completely different sub. You might stop to think that this was all done precisely to avoid having to give out upgrades to everyone who bought a NSD within the last year, as that would be extraordinarily expensive. Think about this, the older NSD underwent a more drastic revision when they changed the cabinet, the amp, and likely other things when they made the switch from BASH to the Sledge amps. That was a more significant change than the switch to the PB2000, but they still kept the name PB12-NSD. But then again, back then there wasn't an official 'free upgrades for a year' policy, as far as I know.

I don't need to "stop to think." I've already made my position clear.

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post #23 of 48 Old 02-16-2014, 02:55 PM
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To answer the OP's original question, I would take the SVS for build quality and warranty. SVS' warranty is 5 years including the amp compared to 2 years on the amp for Rythmik (same warranty on the driver). Also, the SVS uses a cast driver compared to stamped on the Rythmik. The Rythmik is king in the $600 price range, but the PB12-NSD really is a step up.
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post #24 of 48 Old 02-16-2014, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I agree with you here to a point, but the thing is, everything that changed going from the NSD to the 2000 was minor. Lots of changes, yes, but all very minor. This isn't a whole new sub or a completely different sub. You might stop to think that this was all done precisely to avoid having to give out upgrades to everyone who bought a NSD within the last year, as that would be extraordinarily expensive. Think about this, the older NSD underwent a more drastic revision when they changed the cabinet, the amp, and likely other things when they made the switch from BASH to the Sledge amps. That was a more significant change than the switch to the PB2000, but they still kept the name PB12-NSD. But then again, back then there wasn't an official 'free upgrades for a year' policy, as far as I know.

ShadyJ: No one is touting anything, we are stating facts to help guide the OP in making an informed decision. Your hate for SVS and PSA make you believe and spend a lot of your time here trying to discredit what they offer. Also that same hate makes you believe that everyone that recommends PSA or SVS holds the same passionate love inside which is equal to your hate.

1. SVS has a better warranty then Rythmik and Rythmik can not match the SVS bill of rights.

2. SVS upgraded the PB12 NSD and they did not change the name to get out of the one year upgrade. They will honor that. The company has decided to name a subwoofer SB2000/PB2000 and do away with SB12NSD/PB12NSD. Customer's who are still in the one year time frame need to come out of pocket for any difference in price ( Example: you own a B stock PB12 you would have the pay the difference in price for a new PB2000, you bought a PB12 during holiday pricing etc. fair?) and shipping for the return of the PB12. SVS will give you wholesale shipping rate.
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post #25 of 48 Old 02-16-2014, 07:35 PM
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That is nice and all. SVS's 'bill of rights' is a nonsense term for services which are mostly provided by any of these sub companies. SVS only advantages are a superior warranty and trade up program. No other service they provide is special or unique, even though they sell themselves as such. As for the PB12 NSD vs the PB2000, I won't debate that personally any longer, I invite anyone reading this to compare the two models and determine for themselves if the subs' differences are enough to warrant the designation of a whole new model.
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post #26 of 48 Old 02-16-2014, 07:52 PM
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The driver for the 2000 series is a completely new design.

I think that is enough.

They sepnt a lot of time and money developing the new driver to go along with the new amp.

I found this fairly quick with a search.


This new series was definitely not something that SVS took lightly in creating — 17 driver prototypes were used, as the team tested and punished and modified drivers until they achieved the optimal performance they were looking for. The final driver received 100 hours of full-power testing to make sure that it could stand up to some serious home theater abuse.

So if you think they just changed the name and really didn't change much or that it is "minor" compared to the old sub then you are a just being foolish.


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post #27 of 48 Old 02-16-2014, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

That is nice and all. SVS's 'bill of rights' is a nonsense term for services which are mostly provided by any of these sub companies. SVS only advantages are a superior warranty and trade up program. No other service they provide is special or unique, even though they sell themselves as such. As for the PB12 NSD vs the PB2000, I won't debate that personally any longer, I invite anyone reading this to compare the two models and determine for themselves if the subs' differences are enough to warrant the designation of a whole new model.

45 day in home free trial along with superior warranty and 1 year trade up. What else can a subwoofer company offer? Once again the positives are negatives in your book, your mad at them for providing more and effectively marketing what sets them apart.
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post #28 of 48 Old 02-17-2014, 06:01 AM
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I don't think I would say the PB-2000 is a minor upgrade. Granted, it isn't a completely new subwoofer, but 100 watts more power, a completely new driver, and an increase of several db across the frequency spectrum isn't minor IMO.
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post #29 of 48 Old 02-17-2014, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnatalli View Post

I don't think I would say the PB-2000 is a minor upgrade. Granted, it isn't a completely new subwoofer, but 100 watts more power, a completely new driver, and an increase of several db across the frequency spectrum isn't minor IMO.

I would not classify it as a major upgrade either. 100 watts more power is only a 15-20% increase which is less then 1db gain. The new driver is not that huge of a deal and the total output increase is 2-2.5db above 25hz. Far from a several DB increase. smile.gif

That being said I would go for the PB-2000 over the NSD, it is more powerful and deeper tuned. Plus I like how SVS switched to a 24db per octave filter instead of the 48db the NSD had. Should allow a bit more useable extension in rooms offering decent room gain. Also it looks better with a much nicer grill.
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post #30 of 48 Old 02-17-2014, 06:21 AM
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Squeezing a few more watts from an existing amp, adding another choice of finish and/or offering a sturdier grille = an upgrade to an existing sub.

A new driver + a new amp + a new enclosure = a new sub.

IMHO. smile.gif
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Rythmik Audio Lv12r , Svs Pb12 Nsd Black Vinyl 12 Inch Powered Subwoofer , Svs Sb1000 12 Inch 300 Watt Powered Subwoofer
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