MUST READ! BEST $500 subwoofer! INFO & advice for FIRST time buyers! - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 123 Old 03-01-2014, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post

Ok...

Like edgebsl
 said, the 212 is a sealed design... I believe bi-polar design.  The SVS is tuned under 25hz...  The 212 is tuned above 30 hz...  The PB-1000 will have BETTER under 30hz frequency response like I mentioned earlier, however I am NOT saying the SVS will play louder across the board.. It will play lower and more linear.  Also the
And yes the PB1000 has a 1" xmax.  The driver has excursion very similar to the Sunfire I have owned.  This subwoofer just has a better more efficient design so it actually sounds good and plays the whole spectrum.  

Lol, I believe the NSD driver had about .5" xmax. But somehow the 1000 driver is twice that!? My, that would be an incredible subwoofer! I don't think the PB1000 is the worst sub, but the only reason I ever recommend it is because it has high passed RCA outputs, which is handy for those trying to set up desktop computer systems using active speakers. Otherwise its output is just to low to recommend it. It trades output for extension, but doesn't produce enough deep bass to warrant that trade-off.
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post #32 of 123 Old 03-01-2014, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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It is unfortunate to have kids like cel4145 on the internet criticizing other peoples reviews that are meant to HELP people, based on their experiences...  

 

All I have done here is make a basic post to help people that are NOT experienced with AV gear.  This post for those looking to buy a $500 subwoofer.

 

Anyone that is big into this hobby (I am not anymore) will say the same thing.. SVS, HSU, Outlaw and other ID companies will provide you with the biggest bang for the buck.  

 

Furthermore, I will have to personally mute cel4145, as he brings no sufficient data or information to our post.  All he intends on doing is name calling and other immature responses.

 

To sum up this post, the best $500 subwoofer would be:  Outlaw LFM-1 EX when on sale, and the SVS PB-1000.

 

Again some may prefer other options, but for all around performance, build quality, customer service, warranty, cost, and more, those would be the best options in my opinion.

 

Hope this helps.

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post #33 of 123 Old 03-01-2014, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post


While I am very grateful for the mention in this thread I must point out that I would not be certain that our 212 can extend lower than the PB-1000.
I would not feel good about not pointing that out.
We do employ a subsonic filter around 20hz on our subs as do many in the price range of our line.
This is to protect from over excursion and undue strain on the amplifier. It's not a "brick wall" and yes in some rooms there will be use-able extension below.
But in many rooms where boundary and room gain is not sufficient, this is not a guaranteed result.

Different rooms and different tastes will determine which tool is the right one for a particular job.
Different design goals serve different needs and tastes.
In the case of a sealed sub with two 12" drivers, a lot of displacement makes for a lot of headroom in the mid-bass and a lot of impact in that region from 35-80 hz.
When you compare that to a ported sub it too will have it's advantages, particularly the huge increase in efficiency from the port tuning somewhere between 20-25hz .
And as a result have an extremely flat response and max output curve that will better suit rooms where boundary gain is not sufficient.

SVS makes extremely fine products and I am honored to have ours even mentioned in the same thread.

This is a very classy and professional response and it's refreshing to read. I just wanted to say thank you to edgebsl for his response. 

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post #34 of 123 Old 03-01-2014, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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You are correct, like ALL things in life... Everything is a trade off.

 

If you want the strongest vehicle with most amount of power for towing... Best believe it will not be the faster vehicle....  Example Toyota Tundra = lots of power but not much speed.  Example Ferrari F50 lots of speed no towing power.

 

In our situation here SVS produced a product with the most amount of extension with the lowest amount of distortion to produce the cleanest most linear response across the board.  Therefore, it will NOT be the loudest, that was a sacrifice that had to be made.  KEEP IN MIND -> Subject to $500...  Most of us seem to be missing the biggest factor... COST... I'm not saying the most amount of extension EVER... I mean for the $500....

 

For 99% of people on a budget, looking to get the best movie or music experience in their home... The PB1000 and the Outlaw will DEF. do amazing for that $500 price point.

 

As far as wondering if it produces enough bass.. shadyJ -> Have you heard it?

It will play just as loud as the SVS NSD12 just down -3db in the lowest octave... For $500 I can't see this being anything but fair.

 

Anyways, for those looking to purchase a subwoofer for $500, don't shy away from SVS, HSU, Outlaw and other internet direct companies and KNOW you will never have the best of all worlds unless you RICH!! Hahahaha

 

Smittyfit!

 

 

 

 

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post #35 of 123 Old 03-01-2014, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post

Furthermore, I will have to personally mute cel4145
, as he brings no sufficient data or information to our post.  All he intends on doing is name calling and other immature responses.

To sum up this post, the best $500 subwoofer would be:  Outlaw LFM-1 EX when on sale, and the SVS PB-1000.

Hmmm ...Here is some important information for this thread. The Outlaw LFM-1 EX is never on sale for $500. It's the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus that goes on sale for that price.

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post #36 of 123 Old 03-01-2014, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post

In our situation here SVS produced a product with the most amount of extension with the lowest amount of distortion to produce the cleanest most linear response across the board.  .

The problem here is we don't have the distortion profile for many of the $600, $500 and under subs. To make those claims, we need more subs measured. There is nothing to back up those claims due to a dearth of data.
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Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post

As far as wondering if it produces enough bass.. shadyJ -> Have you heard it?
I have heard the kind of output it tops out at. Not bad for the price, but, like I said, I would gladly trade some extension for more headroom.

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Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post

It will play just as loud as the SVS NSD12 just down -3db in the lowest octave... For $500 I can't see this being anything but fair.

The thing is, the PB1000 does not share the PB12 NSD's clean distortion profile. The NSD was extremely clean for all of its output. It's not a simple matter of saying the PB1000 is only down a few dB here and there versus the NSD, because the 1000 can not playback bass as cleanly as the NSD for the same loudness level. Of course, it would be asking a lot of a budget 10" sub to match that distortion profile, but there is more to performance than the comparison you are making. The 1000 doesn't compress as smoothly as the NSD either.
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Hmmm ...Here is some important information for this thread. The Outlaw LFM-1 EX is never on sale for $500. It's the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus that goes on sale for that price.

The EX for $500 would be a great deal indeed.. better yet, how about $650 for two, which is what I paid for mine! biggrin.gif
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post #37 of 123 Old 03-01-2014, 02:41 PM
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If the EX were $500, it would kill all the business for the $800 ID ported subs, because we'd be telling everyone not to be a fool. Save up $200 and get dual EXs biggrin.gif

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post #38 of 123 Old 03-01-2014, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Those measurements I linked to are from this review. Also Jim Wilson's reviews are anything but credible. He is reviews only exist to generate blurbs because he gives effusive praise to every single sub he has tried, no matter how ridiculous it is. By the way, you will need a lot more than 100 dB for a kick in the chest feeling. Or, like it says in the above review, "What the SVS PB-1000 can’t do is punch you in the chest." Jim knows that as well, but it doesn't matter because his reviews are entirely subjective and therefore nothing he writes can be challenged. By the way, the XTZ room analyzer is great for measuring room acoustics, but not for measuring speakers and subs themselves. I don't know why you felt compelled to mention that. Jim doesn't have any usable measurements in his reviews.

SHADY J...........ARE YOU THIS WAY IN EVERY AUDIO FORUM ON THE INTERNET? rolleyes.gif HOW CAN YOU BE SO CRUEL TO ANOTHER PERSON TO JUDGE JIM WILSON'S CREDIBILITY AS AN OBJECTIVE REVIEWER, IS IT NOT ALL ABOUT WHAT SOUNDS GOOD TO YOU? MEASUREMENTS GIVE INSIGHT AND DO NOT CREATE SOUND. I LOOK AT SPECS BUT DO NOT PURCHASE ON THEM ALONE. YOU WOULD BE BETTER SERVED USING YOUR INTELLIGENCE AND KNOWLEDGE TO HELP THOSE LESS INFORMED RATHER THAN TELLING OTHERS HOW LITTLE THEY KNOW AND I KNOW YOU HAVE THE BEST EQUIPMENT OUT THERE..........CORRECT smile.gif
CHEERS JEFF
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post #39 of 123 Old 03-01-2014, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post

SHADY J...........ARE YOU THIS WAY IN EVERY AUDIO FORUM ON THE INTERNET? rolleyes.gif HOW CAN YOU BE SO CRUEL TO ANOTHER PERSON TO JUDGE JIM WILSON'S CREDIBILITY AS AN OBJECTIVE REVIEWER, IS IT NOT ALL ABOUT WHAT SOUNDS GOOD TO YOU? MEASUREMENTS GIVE INSIGHT AND DO NOT CREATE SOUND. I LOOK AT SPECS BUT DO NOT PURCHASE ON THEM ALONE. YOU WOULD BE BETTER SERVED USING YOUR INTELLIGENCE AND KNOWLEDGE TO HELP THOSE LESS INFORMED RATHER THAN TELLING OTHERS HOW LITTLE THEY KNOW AND I KNOW YOU HAVE THE BEST EQUIPMENT OUT THERE..........CORRECT smile.gif
CHEERS JEFF




Seems especially needed in this thread. LOL
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post #41 of 123 Old 03-01-2014, 08:36 PM
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*lots of yelling*

I stand by what I said. If a reviewer can not be critical, what's the point of the review? I don't mind being so blunt about it either, because Jim has had his share of unprovoked personal attacks against me in the past, otherwise I would have have framed my comments in a more tactful manner. Besides, it's not like there is a shortage of subjective audio reviews. All he does is add on to the pile of uselessness.
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post #42 of 123 Old 03-01-2014, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Those measurements I linked to are from this review. Also Jim Wilson's reviews are anything but credible. He is reviews only exist to generate blurbs because he gives effusive praise to every single sub he has tried, no matter how ridiculous it is. By the way, you will need a lot more than 100 dB for a kick in the chest feeling. Or, like it says in the above review, "What the SVS PB-1000 can’t do is punch you in the chest." Jim knows that as well, but it doesn't matter because his reviews are entirely subjective and therefore nothing he writes can be challenged. By the way, the XTZ room analyzer is great for measuring room acoustics, but not for measuring speakers and subs themselves. I don't know why you felt compelled to mention that. Jim doesn't have any usable measurements in his reviews.

If there's anyone who knows about not having creditability it would be you shady; there isn't a single forum you frequent where you're taken seriously. Indeed, there are even those that consider you a troll, and openly state that. All you do is surmise and postulate, which was again made painfully obvious by the fact that Jeremy had to stop by and refute your "Reaction BPS 212 Turbo would destroy the pb-1000" statement. Don't you ever get tired of being proven wrong? Usually people learn from their mistakes at some point, but apparently that lesson is lost on you.

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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I stand by what I said. If a reviewer can not be critical, what's the point of the review? I don't mind being so blunt about it either, because Jim has had his share of unprovoked personal attacks against me in the past, otherwise I would have have framed my comments in a more tactful manner. Besides, it's not like there is a shortage of subjective audio reviews. All he does is add on to the pile of uselessness.

Everything you've gotten from both me and all the others who constantly call you out is totally deserved. It's not by coincidence that so many people are on your case all the time you know. You reap what you sow, and in your case that's disdain.

If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite
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I actually don't say anything at all when I type most of the time, regardless of whether I use upper or lower case letters.  biggrin.gif

MaYB W3 CuoLD SAy NOTHING bY TOKING IN GeEEK LANGuaEG1!11111 ITS Bt3r THaN AL CAps111!111! OMG WtF LOL

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MaYB W3 CuoLD SAy NOTHING bY TOKING IN GeEEK LANGuaEG1!11111 ITS Bt3r THaN AL CAps111!111! OMG WtF LOL

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wow

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post #45 of 123 Old 03-01-2014, 09:16 PM
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If there's anyone who knows about not having creditability it would be you shady; there isn't a single forum you frequent where you're taken seriously. Indeed, there are even those that consider you a troll, and openly state that. All you do is surmise and postulate, which was again made painfully obvious by the fact that Jeremy had to stop by and refute your "Reaction BPS 212 Turbo would destroy the pb-1000" statement. Don't you ever get tired of being proven wrong? Usually people learn from their mistakes at some point, but apparently that lesson is lost on you.
Everything you've gotten from both me and all the others who constantly call you out is totally deserved. It's not by coincidence that so many people are on your case all the time you know. You reap what you sow, and in your case that's disdain.

Read closer, Jeremy stopped by to amend a comment about room gain from basshead. And you make it sound like there is some sort of consortium of people on my case all the time in every forum, when really its only you and a couple other guys who can't handle a civil discussion. Your invective against me is as fact free as your subwoofer reviews. Why not just do us both a favor: if you can not talk to me without resorting to personal attacks and insults, just put me on ignore.
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I bought a SVS subwoofer and it made me far more sexually appealing to the opposite sex, it solved world hunger, world peace insued, payed all my debts, and it healed me being dead.

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I bought a SVS subwoofer and it made me far more sexually appealing to the opposite sex, it solved world hunger, world peace insued, payed all my debts, and it healed me being dead.
lol I want the one you got.

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post #50 of 123 Old 03-02-2014, 05:19 AM
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Read closer, Jeremy stopped by to amend a comment about room gain from basshead. And you make it sound like there is some sort of consortium of people on my case all the time in every forum, when really its only you and a couple other guys who can't handle a civil discussion. Your invective against me is as fact free as your subwoofer reviews. Why not just do us both a favor: if you can not talk to me without resorting to personal attacks and insults, just put me on ignore.

Yes but he also said after the fact that he doubts the BPS212 will blow the PB-1000 away. However yes he did amend my comment about room gain stating there is a subsonic filter @ 20hz so it will not extend lower then the PB. Aside from what the data shows there are many customers out there that are very happy with the PB-1000. It may not be a output monster to your standards but it gets enough positive remarks to be considered a worthy sub. Lets leave it at that and let the OP have his thread back. smile.gif
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post #51 of 123 Old 03-02-2014, 05:34 AM
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I bought a SVS subwoofer and it made me far more sexually appealing to the opposite sex, it solved world hunger, world peace insued, payed all my debts, and it healed me being dead.
All for $500? Wow...no better deal than that. wink.gif I can't imagine what duals will get you. biggrin.gif
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post #52 of 123 Old 03-02-2014, 07:18 AM
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All for $500? Wow...no better deal than that. wink.gif I can't imagine what duals will get you. biggrin.gif

Oh, no. Duals would give you too much juju and cause all kinds of problems wink.gif

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post #53 of 123 Old 03-02-2014, 07:26 AM
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Not hostility. You are cherry picking information and posting a lot of untenable claims (I previously pointed out some). Wait until you know more before cheerleading so heavily. Right now, this reads like fanboy rhetoric. Learn to be more balanced and critical in your assessment.

Agreed. The OP is too much an advocate of this one solution, to the exclusion of all else. He also remains beyond evolution or development of his view, when confronted with data that supports other solutions.

To the OP directly, I would say don't be married to a solution that happens to work for you, to the point where you assume it works just as well for enough people to give it a blanket recommendation.
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post #54 of 123 Old 03-02-2014, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Reference_head -> I have to second your comment... Very odd for me... But suitable for the situation. 

 

basshead81 -> Great post!  Not hearing the BPS212, it does appeal to me like a very good subwoofer.  Reminds me of the older Mirage bi-polar subwoofer designs.  But, that being said, after owning a few of the mirage bi-polar subwoofers and my good friend owning the mirage bps400 (twin 12") they do not dig as deep as the ported designs.  Although very smooth response (more evenly distribute the bass through the listening environment, potential from 2 subwoofers shooting bi-polar rather than just one), tight (Probably because they are sealed design), attractive, and punchy (maybe because tuning point, it plays stronger in the 40-80hz zone.)  Depending on your needs this could be great value!

 

Here is some GREAT insight for ANYONE looking to buy a $500 subwoofer:

 

"Hi Chris -

 

The distortion level from a subwoofer varies with playback level - it's not something which is easily ascertained in an actual living room environment with boundary gain and room gain included, etc. 

 

The better way to look at this is by measuring how loud the subwoofer can play outdoors at 2 meters ground plane without exceeding a subjectively clean distortion limit.  For more information on this technique, check out the PB12-NSD review at Audioholics.  The PB-1000 distortion-limited SPL values are on average about 3 dB lower than the PB12-NSD - that should give you a decent benchmark.    

 

Ed Mullen, PE

Director - Technology and Customer Service

SVS"

 

ALL I CAN SAY --> SVS has done a GREAT job on this SVS PB-1000!!
 

For $500 dollars you are getting a subwoofer with bullet proof warranty, 1 year full trade in value, ultra low distortion playback at ALL levels, flat response down to 19hz, and the best customer service in the game.

 

I can not see anyone going wrong with purchasing the PB-1000.  However, it may not have enough max SPL for some peoples liking.

 

Hope this helps!

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post #55 of 123 Old 03-02-2014, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Disregard my last post regarding the distortion comparison between the NSD and the PB1000.  I misinterpreted ED's post.

 

Basically the test done measures maximum output at east test frequency with the subwoofer held to a fixed distortion limit with is audibly clean.

 

So if you were to look at the CEA charts you will see the PB1000 is down 3dB compared to the NSD in the lower octave in a passing distortion limit.  

 

My apologies for my lack of understanding in my previous post.

 

Hope this clears up my misunderstanding. 

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post #56 of 123 Old 03-02-2014, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Read closer, Jeremy stopped by to amend a comment about room gain from basshead. And you make it sound like there is some sort of consortium of people on my case all the time in every forum, when really its only you and a couple other guys who can't handle a civil discussion. Your invective against me is as fact free as your subwoofer reviews. Why not just do us both a favor: if you can not talk to me without resorting to personal attacks and insults, just put me on ignore.

As I said, you reap what you sow; YOU are the one who tossed the grenade my way, I just threw it back. Leave me out of your posts and we'll be fine. Drag me in and I'll reply. It's really that simple.

If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite
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post #57 of 123 Old 03-02-2014, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

As I said, you reap what you sow; YOU are the one who tossed the grenade my way, I just threw it back. Leave me out of your posts and we'll be fine. Drag me in and I'll reply. It's really that simple.
Sounds reasonable to me.
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post #58 of 123 Old 03-02-2014, 02:26 PM
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Well getting back to the original post: FWIW I agree that the PB-1000 is a very good sub and certainly one that is worth considering buying for $500. Goodness knows a lot of us recommend it when people say they are looking for a good sub and their budget is $500. And SVS certainly has great shipping rates (free) and their 45 day trial period is more than fair and their customer service is excellent. All that adds up to the PB-1000 being a subwoofer that should be on one's short list when considering a $500 sub. 

 

But it's not a perfect subwoofer nor is SVS a perfect company and depending on someone's room situation (along with their wants) there may very well be other options that they should consider. Personally I tend to back away from anything when I'm told that something's perfect or it's the absolute best or when the marketing sounds to good to be true. And that's how I the OP reads to me. But I do agree that the sub is one worthy of consideration. 

 

I will say that the post did a great job of starting a fun thread. :)

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post #59 of 123 Old 03-02-2014, 05:51 PM
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I'm glad this thread is starting to get back to the original topic. As you folks can see I have been a member for some time now, I haven't posted a lot though. I'm honored to be a member here and have been spending a lot of time in the speaker and sub section, especially the PSA forum. I have purchased quite a few speakers and subs since becoming a member here. I consider The Jman (Jim Wilson) a good friend, I've had many interesting and informative PM's with him and have purchased speakers and subs that he has reviewed based on his SUBJECTIVE (not shouting) reco's including PSA subs and ARX speakers. These purchases have made me smile and continue to do so everyday. I've never heard a SVS sub so I can't comment on them. Tom and Jim of PSA both worked for SVS which is IMO is a good thing. I really like my PSA subs and as far as CS there is no equal. 5 year bumper to bumper warranty, made in the USA and they offer trade up deals, I know this to be fact as I've had every sub PSA makes in my home except the XV30. Hopefully in the future they will enter the loudspeaker business, looking forward to an all PSA setup. I want to thank Smitty for his enthusiastic review of his SVS, I don't know if it's the best $500 sub out there, but to him it is and that's all that matters. Hey Shady, you're probably a nice person in person, try smiling a little more, it's a lot easier than that frown you seem to wear when posting in every forum out here. mad.gifsmile.gif Hey Jman, it's nice to hear from you again even under these circumstances. smile.gif
Cheers Jeff
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post #60 of 123 Old 03-02-2014, 07:22 PM
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Someone buys their first decent sub and the heavens open and and they must proclaim the second coming of Jesus.















Pretty standard fare here in AVS land.






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