Opinions....PB2000/XV15, or XS30 - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

You have posted 789 times since you joined in December. You are not going to be happy with whatever you get for five years if you hang around here tongue.gifsmile.gif

Meanwhile, the XS30 will be limited by the SB-1000 if you level match. You won't get to enjoy all that extra headroom.

Tru that...I remember him saying the NSD would be enough to satisfy his needs for years to come. It was not but a short time later he was upgrading to a PB2000. wink.gif

Bear, listen and listen good! tongue.gif

I would seriously consider moving furniture or whatever you can do to get matching subs. Buying a XS30 and putting a SB1000 nearfield would be pointless. Yes you can smooth the response and keep it turned down, but it will still limit the potential of the more powerful sub. You say you do not need more output, the PB2000 gives all you need, but you are wanting to upgrade? No offense but if one reads both of your threads and prior posts, its like one big contradiction. What exactly are you looking for?

If you want a killer subwoofer system then you do what it takes to make the system work. Waf and asthetics go out the window....or it will always be a compramise. I would get another PB2000 or a pair of XV15's or a pair of XS30's and make them work. smile.gif

Take all of the furniture out of the room and start moving the subs around until you find the right spot and then place the furnishings accordingly. This may not be what you want to hear, but that is how we do it in bass land. smile.gif
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post #32 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 08:00 AM
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post #33 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Tru that...I remember him saying the NSD would be enough to satisfy his needs for years to come. It was not but a short time later he was upgrading to a PB2000. wink.gif

This is true...I consider the PB2000 my initial purchase as they released the PB2000 1 week after I received the NSD.

 

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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I would seriously consider moving furniture or whatever you can do to get matching subs. Buying a XS30 and putting a SB1000 nearfield would be pointless. Yes you can smooth the response and keep it turned down, but it will still limit the potential of the more powerful sub. You say you do not need more output, the PB2000 gives all you need, but you are wanting to upgrade?

If you want a killer subwoofer system then you do what it takes to make the system work. Waf and asthetics go out the window....or it will always be a compramise. I would get another PB2000 or a pair of XV15's or a pair of XS30's and make them work. smile.gif

Take all of the furniture out of the room and start moving the subs around until you find the right spot and then place the furnishings accordingly. This may not be what you want to hear, but that is how we do it in bass land. smile.gif
 

Thanks for your suggestions regarding matching subs, it does not fall on deaf ears and makes sense.  Your are right, at the moment, I do not feel like I need more output, so I wonder on one hand why i am even considering things.  I suppose it boils down to trying my best to future proof the system.  Rather than looking at this like upgrading over and over, I feel like I am simply making sure my initial purchase is one that will stand the test of time.  The XS30 seems like it might be the superior option in many ways, and $350 now is better than paying full price for a better sub in a couple of years.

 

As per your last suggestion, this also makes sense, but I am very limited due to the layout of the room.  If I do order the XS30, I will see how it will fit nearfield....it is possible, just requires the couch to be moved out  from the wall about 4 inches.


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post #34 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Tru that...I remember him saying the NSD would be enough to satisfy his needs for years to come. It was not but a short time later he was upgrading to a PB2000. wink.gif

I didn't catch that he had done that (or just forgot).

Bear: do you notice a significant difference in sound quality between the PB-2000 and PB12? If not, be wary of getting caught up in buyer's remorse.

Not that I haven't done it and gotten caught up in the upgrade game. I made a deal with myself to stop sub upgrading in my HT setup. My next sub upgrade in my living room will be to a Seaton Submersive (or whatever the equivalent is then) once I can easily afford it and know that I won't mind buying a 2nd within a year. smile.gif

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post #35 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 11:51 AM
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Just as another suggestion, what about Dual Outlaw LFM Plus' Should be able to be had for right around the upper range of his budget.
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post #36 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 12:41 PM
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Hey bear, you are really getting into subs lately, why not just bypass all the gradual upgrades and go straight to the subwoofer enthusiast endgame of building your own sub? It'll save you a ton of money, not just because DIY is far better performing for the dollar, but you skip all the intermediate sub upgrades. Nevermind my well-known loathing of PSA for the moment, if the PB2000 doesn't do the trick, I wouldn't even be considering the XV15, PB12 Plus, or XS30 as upgrades. They are all too incremental.

When you go DIY, you get to determine exactly what strengths and compromises which are made in the character of your bass. You set your own performance targets. How low do you want the sub to dig? How clean do you want it to play at what loudness level? What kind of SPLs are you interested in? You select the driver. You select the configuration, the size, the shape of the sub. There is a ton of experienced and friendly guys in the DIY forum who are willing to help. If you don't have the tools or experience to throw together a complicated cabinet, just have a local cabinet maker do it, and you set in the driver. Make the cabinet look as nice as you want. Gloss black, granite top, or maybe a durable laminate exterior. If I had to do it all over again, I would have gone DIY.

If you want very sharp performance in a small enclosure, put one of these in a small sealed cabinet. The motor is so powerful it can kill even in a confined cabinet. If you can handle a little larger and want a linear, low distortion sound right out of the box, put a couple of these in a dual opposed cabinet. If you have some patience, in a couple of months the Dayton Ultimax 18"s will be out, and they promise some monstrous SPLs for the price. Those will be brutal- make your own JTR Captivator S2 for not much over $1k!
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post #37 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 12:51 PM
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^^^Yup those look exactly like the driver(TC sounds) used by another member who later switched from DIY for the more user friendly plug and play Svs PB13U....some of us mere mortals just prefer the more simpler approach of buying our subs from a site or store.

Btw...my last sub for all intensive purposed was a DIY....wink.gif

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post #38 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Hey bear, you are really getting into subs lately, why not just bypass all the gradual upgrades and go straight to the subwoofer enthusiast endgame of building your own sub? It'll save you a ton of money, not just because DIY is far better performing for the dollar, but you skip all the intermediate sub upgrades. Nevermind my well-known loathing of PSA for the moment, if the PB2000 doesn't do the trick, I wouldn't even be considering the XV15, PB12 Plus, or XS30 as upgrades. They are all too incremental.

When you go DIY, you get to determine exactly what strengths and compromises which are made in the character of your bass. You set your own performance targets. How low do you want the sub to dig? How clean do you want it to play at what loudness level? What kind of SPLs are you interested in? You select the driver. You select the configuration, the size, the shape of the sub. There is a ton of experienced and friendly guys in the DIY forum who are willing to help. If you don't have the tools or experience to throw together a complicated cabinet, just have a local cabinet maker do it, and you set in the driver. Make the cabinet look as nice as you want. Gloss black, granite top, or maybe a durable laminate exterior. If I had to do it all over again, I would have gone DIY.

If you want very sharp performance in a small enclosure, put one of these in a small sealed cabinet. The motor is so powerful it can kill even in a confined cabinet. If you can handle a little larger and want a linear, low distortion sound right out of the box, put a couple of these in a dual opposed cabinet. If you have some patience, in a couple of months the Dayton Ultimax 18"s will be out, and they promise some monstrous SPLs for the price. Those will be brutal- make your own JTR Captivator S2 for not much over $1k!

I consider my self very value conscious, so DIY would definitely appeal to me if I had the free tome to pursue it.  Unfortunately/fortunately I have a demanding work schedule and average around 70 hours/week, sometimes as high as 100+.  So a days work easily pays for any savings I might realize by building one myself at this point in time.  Regardless of the financial sensibility, it is something I would probably enjoy.

 

When I look at the XS30, i see an improved version of the Epik Empire.  Perhaps a bad analogy as we all know what happened to Epik in large part due to their quality.  However, for $800 it was a very solid performer, and I believe PSA has been out long enough now to see that they are not having a lot of warranty issues.  So with a larger cabinet, better drivers(I can sense your inner scream) and amp, and more than likely better overall quality, I see the XS30 as an extremely high value sub for $1100 bucks.  I do not want to wish a year or two from now that I had started with it.  Don't want to drive myself nuts with the hassle on the other hand though.  Would have to send back my current sub this coming week and wait for the other to arrive.  

 

If I stick with my current setup, I will more than likely end up adding a PB or SB1000 as my dual sub setup(for desperately needed smothing), despite the fact that matching would be more ideal.

 

Alternatively, if I go with the XS30 I will get lower extension(no idea exactly what I will get out of  that in movie watching, but it seems like many people pursue 10Hz or lower extension at great cost and effort, must be something there).  Although I don't feel the need for it currently, I will also gain double to triple the output capability in the mid and upper bass.  I see so many people that upgrade 3-4 times over the course of their first couple of years pursuing subwoofer nirvanna that it seems prudent to not dismiss everyones experience and go a bit bigger than what I currently think i need.

 

Biggest thing I was actually hoping to get out of this thread, was how people felt an XS30 would perform in my 2500 cu. ft. room compared to an $800 ported sub.  In other words, if you or anyone had $1150 to spend, would you get the xs30 or the pb2000, and why.  Either one will likely end up with a smaller sub nearfield to smooth.

 

Seems like dual 15's with more amplifier is an advantage that a single 12" just cant come close to approaching, and the cost difference is not drastic.


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LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

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post #39 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

^^^Yup those look exactly like the driver(TC sounds) used by another member who later switched from DIY for the more user friendly plug and play Svs PB13U....some of us mere mortals just prefer the more simpler approach of buying our subs from a site or store.

Btw...my last sub for all intensive purposed was a DIY....wink.gif

Hey Billy how big is your room?  I see you are running dual sealed subs.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

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post #40 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 02:05 PM
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Like has been said, unless your room permits it, sealed isn't going to get you any serious deep frequency output unless you have a ton of displacement. An XS30 wouldn't do as well as a PB2000 for deep bass, at least if the 2000 keeps the NSD's distortion profile. With respect to drivers, Even the NSD is breezing by at a point where the Power X is coughing up a lung in distortion sweeps. If an XS30 could get louder at all at those low frequencies, it would be mostly from distortion. If you add a driver but subtract port loading, you don't make much progress in deep bass performance, at least around tuning. If you are after more mid bass, the XS30 would probably be pretty good, but it doesn't look like an upgrade for deep bass performance over a 2000. Remember the lower the frequency, the more output is needed just for the same level of perceived loudness. If you want a significant deep bass improvement over a PB2000, I would be looking at a Rythmik FV15HP. If you just want more mid bass, I would look at a Hsu MBM12.
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post #41 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 02:15 PM
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Or.... You could trust someone that has had all 3 in his room

Xs30>xv15>pb12

This is with singles being run.
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post #42 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
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Or.... You could trust someone that has had all 3 in his room

Xs30>xv15>pb12
  

Nothing beats information from someone with first hand experience with the subs in question. This is great info Brian. 

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post #43 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 03:14 PM
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Nothing beats information from someone with first hand experience with the subs in question.

Measurements beat subjective impressions. If you disagree I have some amazing speaker cables to sell you, they will make it sound like you have a whole new system.
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post #44 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 03:38 PM
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I HAVE (or at least had) measurements showing my (notice in room not from 2m away in a parking lot) room had more extension and louder max output (using REW sweeps) for the exact chain

Still:
Xs30>xv15>pb12

Still wanna sell those cables shadyj?

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post #45 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 03:56 PM
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Oh I have no doubt they output more raw SPLs. With a nasty mid bass hump and massive harmonic distortion spike in the deep bass, of course it will be louder. Accuracy for the same volume levels is a different matter, of course, but we've been through all that before, and I don't want to mess up bear's thread any further, so I will bow out of this thread.
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post #46 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 04:29 PM
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Please don't listen to shadyj his claims have been made time and time again and been discredited each time. There is not massive spike in distortion or spl that he speaks of. The super flat response of the svs comes at the expense of output. They use a heavy limiter to get so flat.

Any distortion on Psa is second order which is Inaudible. Again take MY word for it as I'm sure you will be using it with real material in a real room, not with bursts in a parking lot

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post #47 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 04:38 PM
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Please don't listen to shadyj his claims have been made time and time again and been discredited each time. There is not massive spike in distortion or spl that he speaks of. The super flat response of the svs comes at the expense of output. They use a heavy limiter to get so flat.

Shadyj is just jealous because he has those wimpy ULS-15s wink.gif
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post #48 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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To summarize, I am of the impression that a single XS30 in my room should have very similar 16-30Hz output of the PB2000, but should have a lot more 10-16, and a lot more above 30Hz.  Decisions decisions.  Either way, the replacement for the Polk will, unfortunately, likely be a while down the road.  This week will determine if I make a change or not.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

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post #49 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 06:27 PM
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That sound about right

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post #50 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

To summarize, I am of the impression that a single XS30 in my room should have very similar 16-30Hz output of the PB2000, but should have a lot more 10-16, and a lot more above 30Hz.  Decisions decisions.  Either way, the replacement for the Polk will, unfortunately, likely be a while down the road.  This week will determine if I make a change or not.
This is not really a contest between the pb-2000 and the XS30 I'm afraid. The dual-sealed 15" will dig lower and play louder. I would be astonished if it does not. The pb-2000 is +/- 3dB @ 17Hz...the XS-30 at 19Hz. This is really a no-brainer. The pb-2000 will roll off pretty swiftly, while the XS30, if the response chart is accurate, will roll off much slower and play deeper. Sorry to the SVS on this one but the -3dB points are really too close to make the pb-2000 the better option, plus the fact that the sheer Sd of the XS30 is MUCH greater than the pb-2000, port be damned.

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post #51 of 51 Old 03-02-2014, 06:36 PM
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That sound about right

+1
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