Can Audyssey Guarantee Flat Bass to Very Low Frequencies? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Can Audyssey Guarantee Flat Bass to Very Low Frequencies?
Yes 2 12.50%
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post #31 of 46 Old 03-10-2014, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

YPAO, at least the version I have in Yamaha's current RXV series of AVR, does not eq the sub at all.  I am under the impression that none do.  The Audioholics review of the Aventage series also stated YPAO doe not eq subs, and that is their highest line.

There's two versions of YPAO: the regular, and the new multipoint YPAO that is in higher end models. Did the Audioholics review test that capability?

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post #32 of 46 Old 03-10-2014, 01:42 PM
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Now that I think if it, it was last years model..the 2020.  I think they are using 2030 for this years number.  Strange that they don't seem to be going out of their way to mention the new sub eq ability.  I saw someone mentioned it eq's to 32 Hz or something.  Maybe they are too embarrassed to mention it(Since I would think if you have sub eq, it should be able to eq the entire range and not just part of it.)


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post #33 of 46 Old 03-10-2014, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Now that I think if it, it was last years model..the 2020.  I think they are using 2030 for this years number.  Strange that they don't seem to be going out of their way to mention the new sub eq ability.  I saw someone mentioned it eq's to 32 Hz or something.  Maybe they are too embarrassed to mention it(Since I would think if you have sub eq, it should be able to eq the entire range and not just part of it.)

I am not positive that information about YPAO multipoint is accurate. It came from an AVS member a year or so ago. I wish I knew how to verify it. It would make sense Yamaha would want to incorporate that functionality.

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post #34 of 46 Old 03-10-2014, 03:07 PM
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MCACC does not EQ subwoofers. It will use a standing wave function that is just as important to getting good bass in the room as EQ. MCACC does EQ the sub to 63 Hz, It will make adjustments for 3 targeted frequencies, adjust the Q or bandwidth, and make attenuation/gain. MCACC would have to address the 20 Hz to 200 to legitimately say it is EQ'ing the sub. I use advance DSP and PEQ but, the bass throughout the room is better using MCACC standing wave and more even at multiple seating location in the HT.

Looking at what MCACC does with the standing waves in the room illustrates that sub EQ is not the only factor that determine good bass in a room. Getting good bass in a room depends on many factors. A good point to make about getting good bass in a room should be at what price point one is willing to go and has the technical know how to accomplish it. MCACC and Audyssey are good for those that do not want to get into Advance DSP, PEQ, DEQ, Advance standing wave, reverb management correction and so on.

I don't want a bad room frequency response but, I don't strive for a totally flat response and an extra 2 or 3 db in certain part of the response in the room do not make or break a films enjoyment.

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post #35 of 46 Old 03-10-2014, 04:44 PM
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To attempt to answer CEL's original point.

Nothing I read on the linked page is technically wrong. I do think it's written badly.

To establish a frame of reference. In my 20+ years in this hobby, the "flat" point of a subwoofer is generally accepted as it's lower f3 (-3db) point.

Let's use a known quantity to explain what I think Chane is trying to say. The original NHT SW3 and specifically, its driver, the NHT 1259. NHT spec'd an f3 of 20Hz for the SW3. However, since Ken Kantor (president of NHT) was kind enough to make the 1259 driver available separately to the DIY community, we know its anechoic f3 was actually around 35Hz with an f10 of 20Hz. However, measured in a typical US residential room, the SW3 or DIY versions with the 1259 did have an f3 point at 20Hz or lower due to room gain and thus could be called "flat" to 20Hz.

Now say you have a room that doesn't have quite as much room gain as NHT's definition of a "typical" room. With Audyssey being able to apply up to +6dB of boost down to 20Hz, one could still get "flat" response with the SW3/1259 down to 20Hz, even outdoors. Let's not quibble over the 1dB.

So, Chane has stuffed an 18" driver into a sealed cabinet and like a lot of sealed subwoofers with decent drivers and enough cabinet volume, it probably has an anechoic f10 in the neighborhood of 20Hz. Put it in a typical room and it's going to get at least a few dB of gain in the 20Hz-40Hz region. If Audyssey doesn't measure too much distortion down to 20Hz, it'll attempt to make the subwoofer "flat" to 20Hz using the boost at its disposal. Does that mean the subwoofer will be flat (+/- 3dB) form 20Hz to LPF? No. LIke I said, written poorly. Audyssey is still subject to the laws of physics and can't even *always* make an SVS that's +/3 anechoic deliver that same performance in a room. Audyssey has +6dB/-9dB of boost/cut, but it can't physically move the subwoofer to correct room nulls that no amount of boost could overcome and obviously any room induced peaks larger than +9dB can't be pulled down to flat either.

The same can be done with any EQ system that has useable adjustments in the 20-40Hz range. Audyssey just does it automagically. As mentioned by several other posters, MCACC and YPAO do not appear to have this capability. But, one could use a MiniDSP, the DSP built into some PA amps, or put a stand alone EQ inline between the receiver and athe power amp to achieve similar results.

Another thing to keep in mind when trying to look at one measurement position and determine Audyssey's effectiveness. As the ad copy says, it's a *room* correction system. Audyssey is attempting to correct the frequency response in the area defined by its measurement positions (number varies by version). So, measuring at one discrete point within that area is not a full representation of how effective Audyssey's efforts are. If 2 of your seats have a big peak at 25Hz, but your MLP measurement is flat, Audyssey's net EQ at 25Hz, could show a dip at the MLP while being flat at the other 2 seats.

Standard disclaimer. Never heard of this Chane outfit until reading this thread. YMMV. I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. My day job has nothing to do with audio or any audio equipment manufacturer.

-Brent
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post #36 of 46 Old 03-10-2014, 04:45 PM
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Absolutely NOT!

 

JTR S2 with Audyssey enabled no smoothing........................notice the roll off at 30 hz!  :rolleyes:

 

 

XT32 disengaged..........just S2 and room response, measured across three front row seats.........no more roll off at 30 hz.  :rolleyes:

 


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post #37 of 46 Old 03-10-2014, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Absolutely NOT!

JTR S2 with Audyssey enabled no smoothing........................notice the roll off at 30 hz!  rolleyes.gif




XT32 disengaged..........just S2 and room response, measured across three front row seats.........no more roll off at 30 hz.  rolleyes.gif


I know you're not trying to be disingenuous, but the scales in those 2 graphs are completely different. One is logarithmic, the other is not. One goes from 10 to 80 Hz, the other goes from 2 to 200 Hz. The dB scales are also different, one being 70 to 125, the other being 50 to 130. Please make the scales the same so we can *really* compare the 2 graphs.

Also, is this just the sub by itself or are the speakers also playing? What happened to the deep null at 65 Hz in the first graph? Turning Audyssey off should NOT eliminate a null. If it was there with Audyssey on, it should still be there with Audyssey off. There is clearly something different going on in these sets of measurements, and I suspect it is more than just Audyssey off/on.

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post #38 of 46 Old 03-10-2014, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riverwolf View Post

To attempt to answer CEL's original point.

Nothing I read on the linked page is technically wrong. I do think it's written badly.

To establish a frame of reference. In my 20+ years in this hobby, the "flat" point of a subwoofer is generally accepted as it's lower f3 (-3db) point.

Let's use a known quantity to explain what I think Chane is trying to say. The original NHT SW3 and specifically, its driver, the NHT 1259. NHT spec'd an f3 of 20Hz for the SW3. However, since Ken Kantor (president of NHT) was kind enough to make the 1259 driver available separately to the DIY community, we know its anechoic f3 was actually around 35Hz with an f10 of 20Hz. However, measured in a typical US residential room, the SW3 or DIY versions with the 1259 did have an f3 point at 20Hz or lower due to room gain and thus could be called "flat" to 20Hz.

Now say you have a room that doesn't have quite as much room gain as NHT's definition of a "typical" room. With Audyssey being able to apply up to +6dB of boost down to 20Hz, one could still get "flat" response with the SW3/1259 down to 20Hz, even outdoors. Let's not quibble over the 1dB.

So, Chane has stuffed an 18" driver into a sealed cabinet and like a lot of sealed subwoofers with decent drivers and enough cabinet volume, it probably has an anechoic f10 in the neighborhood of 20Hz. Put it in a typical room and it's going to get at least a few dB of gain in the 20Hz-40Hz region. If Audyssey doesn't measure too much distortion down to 20Hz, it'll attempt to make the subwoofer "flat" to 20Hz using the boost at its disposal. Does that mean the subwoofer will be flat (+/- 3dB) form 20Hz to LPF? No. LIke I said, written poorly. Audyssey is still subject to the laws of physics and can't even *always* make an SVS that's +/3 anechoic deliver that same performance in a room. Audyssey has +6dB/-9dB of boost/cut, but it can't physically move the subwoofer to correct room nulls that no amount of boost could overcome and obviously any room induced peaks larger than +9dB can't be pulled down to flat either.

The same can be done with any EQ system that has useable adjustments in the 20-40Hz range. Audyssey just does it automagically. As mentioned by several other posters, MCACC and YPAO do not appear to have this capability. But, one could use a MiniDSP, the DSP built into some PA amps, or put a stand alone EQ inline between the receiver and athe power amp to achieve similar results.

Another thing to keep in mind when trying to look at one measurement position and determine Audyssey's effectiveness. As the ad copy says, it's a *room* correction system. Audyssey is attempting to correct the frequency response in the area defined by its measurement positions (number varies by version). So, measuring at one discrete point within that area is not a full representation of how effective Audyssey's efforts are. If 2 of your seats have a big peak at 25Hz, but your MLP measurement is flat, Audyssey's net EQ at 25Hz, could show a dip at the MLP while being flat at the other 2 seats.

Standard disclaimer. Never heard of this Chane outfit until reading this thread. YMMV. I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. My day job has nothing to do with audio or any audio equipment manufacturer.

-Brent

So it would seem that Chane is also assuming, and perhaps rightly so considering its likely customer base, optimal or at least good placement of its products, which, when combined with Audyssey, will typically offer what they claim.


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post #39 of 46 Old 03-10-2014, 05:34 PM
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I remember asking in a couple of threads guys who were doing just that, relying on Audyssey to eq their diy subs, if Audyssey alone was sufficient and their response was positive. It's been a while and don't remember what threads/posts those were, though....I questioned it as I thought it wouldn't be sufficient.

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post #40 of 46 Old 03-10-2014, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

So it would seem that Chane is also assuming, and perhaps rightly so considering its likely customer base, optimal or at least good placement of its products, which, when combined with Audyssey, will typically offer what they claim.

Talking about what Chane mean to say or is assuming is probably a bad idea for this thread. There's a HUGE history of controversy over the claims of the Chase Home Theater half of Chane. If we don't stick to what that statement says at face value, then this thread could easily get way out of control. (If you want to know more for your own curiosity, you can start here with the modeling of the previous CHT sealed subs and then read around in that thread).

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post #41 of 46 Old 03-10-2014, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riverwolf View Post

To attempt to answer CEL's original point.

Nothing I read on the linked page is technically wrong. I do think it's written badly.

To establish a frame of reference. In my 20+ years in this hobby, the "flat" point of a subwoofer is generally accepted as it's lower f3 (-3db) point.

Let's use a known quantity to explain what I think Chane is trying to say. The original NHT SW3 and specifically, its driver, the NHT 1259. NHT spec'd an f3 of 20Hz for the SW3. However, since Ken Kantor (president of NHT) was kind enough to make the 1259 driver available separately to the DIY community, we know its anechoic f3 was actually around 35Hz with an f10 of 20Hz. However, measured in a typical US residential room, the SW3 or DIY versions with the 1259 did have an f3 point at 20Hz or lower due to room gain and thus could be called "flat" to 20Hz.

Now say you have a room that doesn't have quite as much room gain as NHT's definition of a "typical" room. With Audyssey being able to apply up to +6dB of boost down to 20Hz, one could still get "flat" response with the SW3/1259 down to 20Hz, even outdoors. Let's not quibble over the 1dB.

So, Chane has stuffed an 18" driver into a sealed cabinet and like a lot of sealed subwoofers with decent drivers and enough cabinet volume, it probably has an anechoic f10 in the neighborhood of 20Hz. Put it in a typical room and it's going to get at least a few dB of gain in the 20Hz-40Hz region. If Audyssey doesn't measure too much distortion down to 20Hz, it'll attempt to make the subwoofer "flat" to 20Hz using the boost at its disposal. Does that mean the subwoofer will be flat (+/- 3dB) form 20Hz to LPF? No. LIke I said, written poorly. Audyssey is still subject to the laws of physics and can't even *always* make an SVS that's +/3 anechoic deliver that same performance in a room. Audyssey has +6dB/-9dB of boost/cut, but it can't physically move the subwoofer to correct room nulls that no amount of boost could overcome and obviously any room induced peaks larger than +9dB can't be pulled down to flat either.

The same can be done with any EQ system that has useable adjustments in the 20-40Hz range. Audyssey just does it automagically. As mentioned by several other posters, MCACC and YPAO do not appear to have this capability. But, one could use a MiniDSP, the DSP built into some PA amps, or put a stand alone EQ inline between the receiver and athe power amp to achieve similar results.

Another thing to keep in mind when trying to look at one measurement position and determine Audyssey's effectiveness. As the ad copy says, it's a *room* correction system. Audyssey is attempting to correct the frequency response in the area defined by its measurement positions (number varies by version). So, measuring at one discrete point within that area is not a full representation of how effective Audyssey's efforts are. If 2 of your seats have a big peak at 25Hz, but your MLP measurement is flat, Audyssey's net EQ at 25Hz, could show a dip at the MLP while being flat at the other 2 seats.

Standard disclaimer. Never heard of this Chane outfit until reading this thread. YMMV. I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. My day job has nothing to do with audio or any audio equipment manufacturer.

-Brent
This is a very well thought out and articulate post, and I agree with it. To elaborate...

Audyssey is not an L/T circuit. Linkwitz Transform It doesn't automatically apply a boost to the low frequencies to lower the F3 of the subwoofer.

What Audyssey does do is measure the in-room response of the subwoofer. Then it examines that response for the in-room F3, or the -3 dB frequency. It will then apply room correction down to that frequency... but not below. The only "correction" Audyssey could apply below F3 is boost, and boost below F3 can really stress the subwoofer, (especially a ported subwoofer), and could cause damage. Therefore Audyssey won't do it, nor is it intended to do it.

What this means is that Audyssey "can" provide bass to very low frequencies, but it doesn't "guarantee" bass to very low frequencies. It totally depends on the measured in-room response of the sub. Sealed subs without an L/T circuit, (i.e., a LF boost that extends their F3 to a lower frequency), can't be guaranteed to have a "very low frequency" in-room F3. The in-room F3 will *completely* depend on the subwoofer, the room, the placement of the sub and the measurement position.

OTOH, a sealed sub with an L/T circuit will have a much higher likelihood of having a very low frequency F3, and Audyssey is far more likely to "guarantee" bass to very low frequencies with subs of that type.

Having said that, it is very likely that *most* users of sealed subs without an on-board L/T circuit are likely to experience some amount of room-gain, which will lower the in-room F3 and allow Audyssey to provide "flat bass to very low frequencies."

Craig

(And just to be clear, I am Craig John, not craigsub, who is one of the "principles" of Chane, and who I've been mistaken for in the past.)
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post #42 of 46 Old 03-10-2014, 08:57 PM
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Craig J, thanks for a very thoughtful review of the topic and the elegant response to the OP question. As I have stated before, subwoofer room response/ results depend on a host of factors. Strictly talking about a flat frequency response dose not assure one of good bass in the HT. Reverb management, standing wave correction, phasing and other factors are just as important. To get near perfect bass in a room should be tempered at what price point one is willing to exercise. I owned two Denon avr with Audyssey prior to moving to Pioneer and MCACC. I personally think MCACC's standing wave function and reverb function are just as important as sub EQ. Sub EQ is not the Holy Grail for near perfect bass in the HT, it is one of the tools to be used to help get there.

As far as science related to the OP question, Chane followed accepted scientific approach. They constructed a hypothesis and tested it in their room. Here are the steps to the scientific method use in basic and advance research that are widely used:
The steps of the scientific method are to:

Ask a Question
Do Background Research
Construct a Hypothesis
Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
Communicate Your Result

This approach is preliminary research that is always followed up by more refine testing in my personal experience. Chane will have therir subs tested by a third party and will make available more data once these results are back from Josh Ricci. Most of us would consider Josh Ricci to be an authority on subwoofer evaluation and performance.

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post #43 of 46 Old 03-11-2014, 02:27 PM
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he Mini DSP or some other type of DSP/PEQ with one of the amps like Berhinger I Nuke or, MQ 600 will give user of passive subwoofer, like Chane , unprecedented control for shaping the subswoofers response for their rooms. This is something that can't be achieved by a plate amp subwoofer at a comparable price.

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This is going to be the dumbest question ever, so I apologise in advance...


... but is it the case that an AntiMode can only cut peaks in response, whereas a MiniDSP can also boost? (but only in a fixed 25Hz or 35Hz curve?)

What are the other EQ solutions that can provide full control and curve shaping (via LTs or notch filters/boosts)? Audyssey SubEQ? The SVS EQ thingy that I can't remember the name of? A Bassis (Bosso or otherwise)? Or something like a BFD?

I guess I'm just looking to find out which solution is the most flexible and offers the most control (to single digits?) with the easiest user interface!


I have Audyssey XT32 on my Onkyo 818 and I've been very impressed with it so far, but as per Craig John's post above, I'm aware that my sealed DIY build (or any other) will require EQ to boost the bottom end before Audyssey can be run and an attempt made to get a flat response across as wide a bandwidth as possible...

Thanks in advance! smile.gif
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post #45 of 46 Old 03-12-2014, 06:19 AM
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I use the mini dsp, 2x4 for my two subs and it is extremely flexible in what you can, it is, in a word, amazing if you have the time and gumption to set it up properly.
I will have the x4000 tomorrow so looking forward to see how xt32 sub EQ compares to just must EQ that I have now (Denon 2309) with the MI I dsp.


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post #46 of 46 Old 03-12-2014, 11:54 AM
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I use the Berhinger I Nuke for PEQ, DEQ in conjunction with MCACC for my subwoofers. The Berhinger I Nuke covers 20 Hz-20 kHz, 8 adjustable filter, a host of slopes from 6 db to 48 db, time delay and other advance DSP. The Mini DSP is very similar to the Berhinger I Nukes. The I Nukes can boost the low end up to 15 db of cut it 15 db.. A key point is not boost the low end to much to stress the amplifier. Also, boosting the slow end will steal some of the slam higher up in a lot of system. When using PEQ/DSP, do not boost the lowest end more than 6 db as a general rule. Also boost wide and cut narrow only one or two peaks below 80 Hz. Over use of filters under 80 Hz is not need and can mess up the sound.

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