If money were no object, which sub(s) would you pick for your room? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 206 Old 03-19-2014, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Liberty76 View Post

Well, apparently you did the math for me! The Eminence driver isn't pricey, but it does the job! So why the $4K price tag? Perhaps its the internal components, research, made in USA and such? You have judged a book (Sub) by its cover (Driver)!
It doesn't do the job that Zu claims it does. The LAB 12 goes to 12Hz? Yes, it does, 26dB down from F0. You can easily find dozens of subs the equal of this one for 1/4 the price or less. Why do they charge $4K? They remain at their heart a 'high end' cable company. Charging exorbitant prices is what they do. OTOH:
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I would also pick the Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer! Its a beast at 411lbs and starting at $21,000!
That's even sillier than the Zu, being ten times the price that one could possibly justify. Anyone knowledgeable about speakers would recognize that fact, but that's not the Wilson customer base.
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post #92 of 206 Old 03-19-2014, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Liberty76 View Post

I certainly didn't expect to get the jabs about the ZU Subs! In my effort to bring the topic back in line, I would also pick the Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer! Its a beast at 411lbs and starting at $21,000!

I notice in a previous post about visiting the factory that you didn't demo the subs at all, but were impressed with the finishes? Or is it more that they're in Utah?
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post #93 of 206 Old 03-19-2014, 03:10 PM
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All I do know is that I was simply responding to the question of the thread; "If money were no object, which sub(s) would you pick for your room"? I didn't expect to get the jabs and such....because if money didn't matter then why would I care what others think? If i had the money I would probably go through at least a dozen subs (just because I could) before I found the one that fit my system and room the best! If a ZU sub sounded better than a JL, SVS, Rythmik in my specific room, then I would pick the ZU! No matter what specs or components a sub has or doesn't have.

When I actually do get my system set up in my basement (still unfinished), I will definitely look more in depth before my purchase. Because I would prefer a smaller footprint I would probably start with two SVS PC13 Ultras or two PC12 Plus subs.
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post #94 of 206 Old 03-19-2014, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Even if money were no object, it still makes sense to get what you pay for.  I wouldn't pay $5000 for a Bose Acoustimass just because money were no object.  But dual Seaton Submersives, which cost way more than what I am willing to spend right now on subwoofers, offer tremendous performance, great asthetics, and would actually reasonably work in my room dimension wise.

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post #95 of 206 Old 03-19-2014, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty76 
All I do know is that I was simply responding to the question of the thread; "If money were no object, which sub(s) would you pick for your room"? I didn't expect to get the jabs and such....
The question demanded a subjective answer, and you provided one. IMO, and FWIW, I agree that you should not have been jabbed at. cool.gif
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post #96 of 206 Old 03-19-2014, 03:38 PM
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Lovinthehd,

In response, Utah is home to some well known audio companies. I was just doing a search one day and discovered that ZU Audio was about 25 minutes from my house! When I set up my system, I would prefer to stay Made in USA if not local for most if not all my equipment.

I have yet to even hear any ZU speakers, but Sean Casey did offer to send me home with a pair of Omen Defs!! The timing wasn't right for me, but I take him up on the offer someday soon!

So basically the reasons why ZU Audio has my interest are as follows:

- Made in USA (vast majority of parts and labor)
- Local (easy to audition and customer support is just down the road)
- Endless finish choices
- Sean Casey and crew have great passion for what they do
- Unique looking speakers
- Good variety of speakers in my price range

So it will come down to me actually listening to the ZU products and I'll go from there!

I totally agree about the Bose comment by bear123! I too in the end, want the most for my money as well!

Thanks
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post #97 of 206 Old 03-19-2014, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post


JapanDave,
What are you using to get a rise like that at 5 hz? Usually it happens two octaves above. Are you using a Bassis?
I am using DiracLive to get that response curve.


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post #98 of 206 Old 03-19-2014, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post

This is correct.

Here is a sweep I did before I got the 3rd. I can try to do a sweep at a higher lever this weekend. Would i need to do a 105 db sweep or 115db sweep to see reference? I had my avr at around -12 I believe when I did these sweeps.

audysseyxt32nosmoothing_zps712ae35c.jpg
When people talk about a flat response to a certain frequency, it is usually assumed it is @ 115db.


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post #99 of 206 Old 03-19-2014, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty76 View Post

Lovinthehd,

In response, Utah is home to some well known audio companies. I was just doing a search one day and discovered that ZU Audio was about 25 minutes from my house! When I set up my system, I would prefer to stay Made in USA if not local for most if not all my equipment.

I have yet to even hear any ZU speakers, but Sean Casey did offer to send me home with a pair of Omen Defs!! The timing wasn't right for me, but I take him up on the offer someday soon!

So basically the reasons why ZU Audio has my interest are as follows:

- Made in USA (vast majority of parts and labor)
- Local (easy to audition and customer support is just down the road)
- Endless finish choices
- Sean Casey and crew have great passion for what they do
- Unique looking speakers
- Good variety of speakers in my price range

So it will come down to me actually listening to the ZU products and I'll go from there!

I totally agree about the Bose comment by bear123! I too in the end, want the most for my money as well!

Thanks

I understand the desire to promote products from the US. However, your post seemed to imply some personal experience with the Zu product then I looked at your posts and noted you hadn't actually heard them and rather had more experience with their finishing, so just sayin'..... Another point if the amp isn't US but Dutch as someone else said, that doesn't make the components vast majority of parts of an active sub (and even Eminence says designed and assembled in the US which means more foreign components....being a former US Customshouse broker I'm all too familiar with the games US companies play with foreign components and labeling, although it is simply how things are now with so much sourced overseas).

Not a requirement for this thread to have personal experience with the product in any case, I certainly don't have experience with the rotary subwoofer altho I'd like to....and my next sub I'm going to build myself to make it as local as possible wink.gif

I'd sure like to know what makes the Zu sub worth 4k, though....
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post #100 of 206 Old 03-19-2014, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

When people talk about a flat response to a certain frequency, it is usually assumed it is @ 115db.

Other than your graph I don't think I have ever seen anyone post a 115db graph to show a frequency response (at least in the threads I frequent). I will try one this weekend.
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post #101 of 206 Old 03-19-2014, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post

Other than your graph I don't think I have ever seen anyone post a 115db graph to show a frequency response (at least in the threads I frequent). I will try one this weekend.

I love JapanDaves system. It is my favorite one I've seen (hearing it is on my bucket list smile.gif don't tell him though)...With that said I respectfully disagree with the 115db plot comment, most of the FR plots I see are in the 95-100 db range. Doing sweeps at 115db would probably damage most of us mere mortals systems. Tones are wicked hard on equipment.
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post #102 of 206 Old 03-19-2014, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

When people talk about a flat response to a certain frequency, it is usually assumed it is @ 115db.

Maybe on the DIY forum. But generally flat to a frequency means it has a usable output whether that be felt or heard. Anything from 95 dB+ plus consider usable depending on frequency and taste.
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post #103 of 206 Old 03-20-2014, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

I love JapanDaves system. It is my favorite one I've seen (hearing it is on my bucket list smile.gif don't tell him though)...With that said I respectfully disagree with the 115db plot comment, most of the FR plots I see are in the 95-100 db range. Doing sweeps at 115db would probably damage most of us mere mortals systems. Tones are wicked hard on equipment.

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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Maybe on the DIY forum. But generally flat to a frequency means it has a usable output whether that be felt or heard. Anything from 95 dB+ plus consider usable depending on frequency and taste.
With all due respect, but we are talking about usable output @ reference levels. Not some arbitrary level that the OP decides is 'usable'. Where does this 95db level come from? If that is the case I am may as well say I am flat to DC.


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post #104 of 206 Old 03-20-2014, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post


With all due respect, but we are talking about usable output @ reference levels. Not some arbitrary level that the OP decides is 'usable'. Where does this 95db level come from? If that is the case I am may as well say I am flat to DC.

I agree, at a minimum the flat to xx hz should always be qualified with an at xx db level when describing max system performance.

Most charts are posted to show room frequency response, not max sub performance. In this instance those two got mixed up and confusion ensued.
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post #105 of 206 Old 03-20-2014, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I think if someone wants to know if they are flat to a certain frequency at reference, they need to specify at reference, as that is NOT the norm.  This is a level that most people, even the audio and subwoofer freaks on these forums, rarely listen at.  Just because an individual prefers to use reference level as their preferred output level to use when referring to how flat their response is, does not mean that everyone does.  In fact, all FR plots that I have ever seen have been at lower volume, NOT max SPL or reference.  So to assume someone means flat to XX Hz at reference when they say they are flat to XX Hz, is generally incorrect imo.  People are free to use whatever output level they prefer, but to state that only reference level matters does not make sense, especially if someone never listens that loud.

 

I am relatively flat to 13-15 Hz in my room.  I am this flat much louder than I ever listen, so why would I be concerned if I can hit 115 dB at 14 Hz?  If that's my thing, fine, I'll spend thousands more to get there.  But if not, then who cares?

 

FR for speakers and subwoofers are posted on dozen's of manufacturers websites, and none are at reference or make any indication that they are implying at reference.


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post #106 of 206 Old 03-20-2014, 01:03 PM
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And there in lies the problem IMO....we all have different needs or requirements. If I wanted to produce single digits sustained reference levels...I'd likely have to consider going DIY route rather than commercial graded subs but I don't and the point is moot at least to me. smile.gif

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post #107 of 206 Old 03-20-2014, 01:03 PM
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Many people are learning on this forum and it can get confusing for newbs. Many people will spen lots of money and assume they can get whatever the specs said. Some even measure a response and see they are flat to 5hz and assume they are always flat no matter what level and this is not true. For any sub system building the lowest they want to go to what ever levels should be the go because above that is the easy part. Many see their subs can hit reference at 40hz and assume that their response graph to 5hz means they are flat to 5 hz at reference and this may not be the case. It matters to the people that have put lots of time into this hobby to achieve goals. So when someone like JapanDave who knows what it takes sees something he will ask questions. What is the goal of the system? This thread is about money no object but many of us know just because something costs thousands does not mean it will perform great for stated goals.
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post #108 of 206 Old 03-20-2014, 01:04 PM
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Commercials subs can get there, you just need to spend lots of many and buy the correct subs.
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post #109 of 206 Old 03-20-2014, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I can certainly understand the reasoning behind attaining flat to a certain frequency at reference.  Like you said MK, it gives you the headroom and capability above that point to meet or exceed your needs.  So I don't mean to imply achieving reference level output at XX Hz is not a worthy goal.  Everyone's goals are their own choice.  And I agree there is an important distinction to be made between stating flat to XX Hz vs at what level one can achieve reference level output.  It is a more standardized benchmark for comparison.  Personally, I have no idea at what frequency I can achieve reference level output.  My bet would be 30 Hz :D  Although if I ever get around to replacing the mighty Polk I think I will be somewhere around 20, just as a guess.


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post #110 of 206 Old 03-20-2014, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post

Other than your graph I don't think I have ever seen anyone post a 115db graph to show a frequency response (at least in the threads I frequent). I will try one this weekend.



When you say you are flat at X frequency, normally that means at reference level of 115db. This tends to get confused quite a bit around here.

Look forward to seeing your reference sweep. smile.gif
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post #111 of 206 Old 03-20-2014, 11:41 PM
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Another thought if money was no object. And I felt like giving it away. I would buy a CAT MBX FXX level home theater and maybe even a dedicated two channel setup as well.

And maybe model it something like this. smile.gif




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post #112 of 206 Old 03-21-2014, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

I think if someone wants to know if they are flat to a certain frequency at reference, they need to specify at reference, as that is NOT the norm.  This is a level that most people, even the audio and subwoofer freaks on these forums, rarely listen at.  Just because an individual prefers to use reference level as their preferred output level to use when referring to how flat their response is, does not mean that everyone does.  In fact, all FR plots that I have ever seen have been at lower volume, NOT max SPL or reference.  So to assume someone means flat to XX Hz at reference when they say they are flat to XX Hz, is generally incorrect imo.  People are free to use whatever output level they prefer, but to state that only reference level matters does not make sense, especially if someone never listens that loud.

I am relatively flat to 13-15 Hz in my room.  I am this flat much louder than I ever listen, so why would I be concerned if I can hit 115 dB at 14 Hz?  If that's my thing, fine, I'll spend thousands more to get there.  But if not, then who cares?

FR for speakers and subwoofers are posted on dozen's of manufacturers websites, and none are at reference or make any indication that they are implying at reference.
I am sorry , but I have to disagree. Reference is the base line that remains standard regardless of what level you personally listen to, that is why it is called reference.

FR plots that are posted are usually taken at lower levels, b/c all we are trying to do is show what the rooms FR is. When you start asking what frequency you are flat to is when you need to measure @ max SPL of your system to see where your system is @ reference levels.

And once you start getting below 20hz, you need a certain level of SPL so as you can get the full effects of it, the reason for the house curve. B/c you can listen to 15hz @ 115db without discomfort, but get into the higher octaves and you will be in pain pretty quickly.
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post #113 of 206 Old 03-21-2014, 02:45 AM
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Honestly if this is such a big deal lets move it to another thread.

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post #114 of 206 Old 03-21-2014, 04:54 AM
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FR for speakers and subwoofers are posted on dozen's of manufacturers websites, and none are at reference or make any indication that they are implying at reference.

Have you checked out http://www.data-bass.com/home ?
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post #115 of 206 Old 03-21-2014, 05:06 AM
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Honestly if this is such a big deal lets move it to another thread.
Honestly, if you don't like the topic at hand, don't read the thread. As it stands the thread is open for a lot of debate due to its very subjective question, so I certainly don't see any problem with a debate about reference levels.
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post #116 of 206 Old 03-21-2014, 11:02 AM
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Honestly, if you don't like the topic at hand, don't read the thread. As it stands the thread is open for a lot of debate due to its very subjective question, so I certainly don't see any problem with a debate about reference levels.

Seriously Dave, Its also off topic.

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post #117 of 206 Old 03-21-2014, 11:22 AM
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Seriously Dave, Its also off topic.

It amazes me how a fun and uncontroversial thread can spiral all over the place so quickly. It's pretty simple, really. What sub do you own, and what sub would you have in your current room if money wasn't a factor? I found the on-topic responses interesting, while I found the off-topic responses to be … well … off-topic.
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post #118 of 206 Old 03-21-2014, 06:48 PM
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If the only standard was how flat you were at reference, very few people would ever post graphs. Even on this forum, reference level playback ability is rare. Even more rare are the people who ever listen that loud. As someone else already stated, most graphs show 90-100 db sweeps.
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post #119 of 206 Old 03-21-2014, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

If the only standard was how flat you were at reference, very few people would ever post graphs. Even on this forum, reference level playback ability is rare. Even more rare are the people who ever listen that loud. As someone else already stated, most graphs show 90-100 db sweeps.
Please tell me what 90-100 db sweep is for?


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post #120 of 206 Old 03-21-2014, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post


Please tell me what 90-100 db sweep is for?

The loudest a lot of people will ever listen?  I typically watch movies at -15 or below.  Just for kicks I did an REW sweep with master volume at 0 and was flat to 10 Hz, but I NEVER watch movies or listen to music that loud.


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