If money were no object, which sub(s) would you pick for your room? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 05:43 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
JapanDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Curious: Yesterday, you pointed out that the SUB 2 was flat to 10Hz because the 112dB it was hitting at that frequency was within 3dB of the 115 reference mark.

In the chart you posted, the VTF-2 hits 113dB at 25Hz. Since 113 is also within 3dB of 115, shouldn't the VTF-2 be flat to 25Hz?

Thanks.
You can take that any way you want. Using the +/-3db can certainly have that sub going to the frequencies that you suggest, but I don't want to come across bias and over state how well these subs can do for fear of persecution. So I took the lower point not to invoke any more senseless debates.

BTW, I forgot to include this in my earlier post,
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1488059/your-home-theater-ulf-score


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

JapanDave is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 05:46 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
JapanDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

So, you are quoting 1m output data....what happens when people try to do a sine wave sweep from 15 feet away(5m) in their room......over what spectrum do you expect they will hit 115 dB?
Do the math, if you can't hit reference @ the listening position, too bad. Or you could buy more subs.Any which way, you are not going to damage them as you seem to think will happen.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

JapanDave is offline  
post #183 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 05:47 AM
Advanced Member
 
wth718's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 905
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Yes, because other than a small handfull of extraordinarily expensive ID subs, most cannot achieve reference level output much below 30Hz.


This is your opinion of how it should be defined, but the fact is that it is not by most.  SVS, HSU, Rythmik, Outlaw, PSA, all post frequency response graphs indicating the FR over which they are flat +/- 3 dB.  None of them are done at reference.  None of them imply reference.  No one assumes that it should be at reference.

Your personal preference for indicating a flat +/- 3 dB frequency response is at reference, and that is ok.  But it is not the norm for many others, and to assume it is would be incorrect.  

No response to this yet? rolleyes.gif
oneeyeblind likes this.
wth718 is online now  
post #184 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 2,461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 674
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post


Do the math, if you can't hit reference @ the listening position, too bad. Or you could buy more subs.Any which way, you are not going to damage them as you seem to think will happen.

So someone who can only afford one sub for say 6-800, is simply not allowed to state their frequency response, if they cannot exceed 115 dB at their MLP?

oneeyeblind likes this.

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

bear123 is offline  
post #185 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 05:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
J_Palmer_Cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,423
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 246 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

And 115dB + 3dB = 118dB. Is that the sub's peak output? No.
Actually , I take as -3db @109db and + @ 115db. Regardless, they are just trying to market their sub as something special and that will potentially play @ 112db @ 10hz. Very much in line with the industry standard of 115db for subs, even if they did take the low side, a marketing ploy for sure. Any which way you look at it , they are no posting 90db frequency responses.



There is no industry standard of 115 dB SPL for subwoofers in a home setting.

There is a calibration standard that should allow the LFE channel to be played back with a maximum output of 115 dB SPL (10 dB above each main channel). The LFE channel is not the same thing as the subwoofer output of the AVR. The subwoofer output (LFE plus RB) could be as high as a ballpark 121 dB SPL measured at the listening position if subwoofer is calibrated even with the main speakers.
J_Palmer_Cass is offline  
post #186 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 05:57 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
JapanDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

So someone who can only afford one sub for say 6-800, is simply not allowed to state their frequency response, if they cannot exceed 115 dB at their MLP?
Are you serious. Lets all feel sorry for those poor bastards who own Bose systems or home theater in a box. rolleyes.gif I am sorry if and when we are talking on a dedicated home theater forum that we simply dismiss those kind of systems to people who are not really concerned with actual sound quality in their homes. I hesitate to say home theater, b/c anyone leaving the LFE duties to home theater in a box solution as someone who is not interested in AVS, or AUDIO VISUAL SCIENCE.

For gods sake, you seem to want to race in F1 but use a Prius to do so. If you can't afford a decent sub, that is the unfortunate facts of life, get used to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

There is no industry standard of 115 dB SPL for subwoofers in a home setting.

There is a calibration standard that should allow the LFE channel to be played back with a maximum output of 115 dB SPL (10 dB above each main channel). The LFE channel is not the same thing as the subwoofer output of the AVR. The subwoofer output (LFE plus RB) could be as high as a ballpark 121 dB SPL measured at the listening position if subwoofer is calibrated even with the main speakers.
A matter of wording , nothing else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

No response to this yet? rolleyes.gif

Answered above.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

JapanDave is offline  
post #187 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 2,461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 674

JapanDave, you have a very capable subwoofer system, perhaps one of the most capable anywhere, no disputing that.  Reference level output to a very low frequency was obviously an important goal for you, so important that you probably spent ten times on your subs than what most average AVS members have in their entire systems.  But thats cool, no one is giving you any grief over it.  However, you have a personal opinion that frequency response sweeps are only valid at reference level.  While its ok that you are of that opinion, it does not mean that your opinion means that no one else in the world is allowed to state "I am flat to 16 Hz in my room" just because they did not do a reference level sweep.  If you apply your own unusual opinion of what is required of a FR, that's you, not everyone else.  Reference level is a universal standard of output, yes, but it is not the requirement for stating frequency response, other than your own personal preference.  I could easily quote dozens of members on this forum who have posted FR charts in their rooms showing flat to XX Hz, and almost none of them will be reference level sweeps.  The fact is, reference level is not required, or implied.  Its ok that it is your preference, but again, trying to impose your preference as the required standard is just incorrect.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

bear123 is offline  
post #188 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 06:09 AM
Advanced Member
 
wth718's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 905
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Are you serious. Lets all feel sorry for those poor bastards who own Bose systems or home theater in a box. rolleyes.gif I am sorry if and when we are talking on a dedicated home theater forum that we simply dismiss those kind of systems to people who are not really concerned with actual sound quality in their homes. I hesitate to say home theater, b/c anyone leaving the LFE duties to home theater in a box solution as someone who is not interested in AVS, or AUDIO VISUAL SCIENCE.

For gods sake, you seem to want to race in F1 but use a Prius to do so. If you can't afford a decent sub, that is the unfortunate facts of life, get used to it.

I think YOU are missing the point. No one says that those mid-priced subs are as good as, should be mentioned in the same sentence as 8 IB XXX's, for example. The point is that according to you, someone who has such a sub can't state what their FR is because they will never hit your "industry standard" 115 dbs. An industry standard that most mfgs aren't using, by the way, as has been pointed out. You can see 115db within 1M fairly easily. But your standard is different. In order to qualify to talk about their response, they must be able to hit reference at their MLP, which the vast majority of people can't do. So in your world, the only ones "qualified" to say I'm flat to X Hz, are those with big output/big power, irrespective of their ability to hit X Hz at the levels they normally listen. Hence my use of the word "elitist."
oneeyeblind likes this.
wth718 is online now  
post #189 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 06:19 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
JapanDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

JapanDave, you have a very capable subwoofer system, perhaps one of the most capable anywhere, no disputing that.  Reference level output to a very low frequency was obviously an important goal for you, so important that you probably spent ten times on your subs than what most average AVS members have in their entire systems.  But thats cool, no one is giving you any grief over it.  However, you have a personal opinion that frequency response sweeps are only valid at reference level.  While its ok that you are of that opinion, it does not mean that your opinion means that no one else in the world is allowed to state "I am flat to 16 Hz in my room" just because they did not do a reference level sweep.  If you apply your own unusual opinion of what is required of a FR, that's you, not everyone else.  Reference level is a universal standard of output, yes, but it is not the requirement for stating frequency response, other than your own personal preference.  I could easily quote dozens of members on this forum who have posted FR charts in their rooms showing flat to XX Hz, and almost none of them will be reference level sweeps.  The fact is, reference level is not required, or implied.  Its ok that it is your preference, but again, trying to impose your preference as the required standard is just incorrect.
I have no problem with what you are saying. But, again using an arbitrary level, I could use a 8" sub and say I was flat to 10hz , albiet @ 39db's b/c that is what I decide to be my level of entertainment. When we are talking on a AV science forum, most of us are sticking by a certain level, which happens to be reference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

I think YOU are missing the point. No one says that those mid-priced subs are as good as, should be mentioned in the same sentence as 8 IB XXX's, for example. The point is that according to you, someone who has such a sub can't state what their FR is because they will never hit your "industry standard" 115 dbs. An industry standard that most mfgs aren't using, by the way, as has been pointed out. You can see 115db within 1M fairly easily. But your standard is different. In order to qualify to talk about their response, they must be able to hit reference at their MLP, which the vast majority of people can't do. So in your world, the only ones "qualified" to say I'm flat to X Hz, are those with big output/big power, irrespective of their ability to hit X Hz at the levels they normally listen. Hence my use of the word "elitist."
Plenty of people hitting those levels in this thread,
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1488059/your-home-theater-ulf-score


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

JapanDave is offline  
post #190 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 2,461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 674
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

 I could use a 8" sub and say I was flat to 10hz , albiet @ 39db's b/c that is what I decide to be my level of entertainment.

We all know that FR measurements are normally done at 75 dB or higher for obvious reasons.  A flat response at this level is a reasonably good indicator of how ones system will perform at normal and reasonable listening volumes, i.e. not reference.   Reference level is a much louder level than the majority of people, even AVS forum members, listen.  I think if someone wants to know how capable ones system is at reference, it needs to be specified, as that is, for most, not the normal means of communicating ones FR.

 

I agree reference is a useful metric, and perhaps a good standard for reaching certain goals to ensure adequate headroom.  Again though, I just don't feel that it is an implied or required parameter for posting ones FR.

oneeyeblind likes this.

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

bear123 is offline  
post #191 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 06:32 AM
Advanced Member
 
wth718's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 905
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Plenty of people hitting those levels in this thread,
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1488059/your-home-theater-ulf-score

I'm well aware of the thread and get a 4 star rating myself. But I also recognize that "plenty" represents a TINY percentage of users in general, and a very small percentage of forum members. That's a perspective which you may have lost. Point is, the typical member may have a single Hsu or SVS sub, which will never hit reference at their seat. Should they not be allowed to join in the discussion or state what they are able to experience in their setup?

I get what you're saying about someone doing a sweep at 60 db and making claims about what their system can do. Most people don't do that, though.
oneeyeblind and Steve1981 like this.
wth718 is online now  
post #192 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 07:19 AM
Advanced Member
 
Steve1981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Maryland
Posts: 635
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Liked: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

There is no industry standard of 115 dB SPL for subwoofers in a home setting.

There is a calibration standard that should allow the LFE channel to be played back with a maximum output of 115 dB SPL (10 dB above each main channel). The LFE channel is not the same thing as the subwoofer output of the AVR. The subwoofer output (LFE plus RB) could be as high as a ballpark 121 dB SPL measured at the listening position if subwoofer is calibrated even with the main speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

A matter of wording , nothing else.

Except that it's not just a matter of wording. Full reference level with five bass managed channels theoretically entails maximum subwoofer output of 115dB+105dB+105dB+105dB+105dB+105dB=123.2dB. IOW, reference level can and does occasionally ask for more than 115dB of output from a subwoofer(s), unless you happen to be running all your channels full range.
Steve1981 is offline  
post #193 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 10:10 AM
Advanced Member
 
its phillip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: fort worth, tx
Posts: 751
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 55
I think it would be easier if people who say they are flat to __hz simply state at what spl they are flat to. If they don't specify an spl, just assume it's at reference. No need to argue smile.gif

its phillip is offline  
post #194 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 04:02 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
JapanDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post


Except that it's not just a matter of wording. Full reference level with five bass managed channels theoretically entails maximum subwoofer output of 115dB+105dB+105dB+105dB+105dB+105dB=123.2dB. IOW, reference level can and does occasionally ask for more than 115dB of output from a subwoofer(s), unless you happen to be running all your channels full range.
A "calibration standard” or "Industry Standard", it is a recognized level of calibration output considered for the home setting by the industry . So yes, just a matter of wording.
As for the level, it is generally taken that the 105db + 10db as the 'Norm' in most circumstances. And I would hate to see what would happen if I went with the higher evel.

As for the others who are chiming in and not happy with the reference level comments, you have come into a 'No Money' is object thread, start throwing around the big guns sub-woofers and have a lot of enthusiasts coming to chime in as well, but complain when someone states a level that is pretty much recognized as a level to compare a systems output on a level playing. I am well aware that we are in the minority, but we are on an enthusiasts forum and inevitably the minority becomes a bigger percentage of the pool solely due to the fact that a lot of everyday people are not bothered with participating in a forum like this.

That said, I never implied that people could not join in, I merely stated that if you are going to say a sub is flat to a certain frequency, particularly in a thread like this, don't use an arbitrary level of SPL for reference. Any other thread and I would not say so, but the money is no object thread drew me in, purely b/c I did not let money be an object in my choice for subs.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

JapanDave is offline  
post #195 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 04:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
derrickdj1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,460
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 146
People are using Reference Level incorrectly. Yes, 115 db is the peak LFE output but, it dose not define at what Hz. The critical range is 30-60 Hz for this output. FR graphs are good to see what is going on in the room and what one can reasonably reproduce in their room. You don't need to be able to hit 115 db at 15 or 20 Hz at the MLP to qualify for having a good HT and enjoy it. Most people should not try to do a 115 db sweep at the MLP at 10 or 15 Hz because someone is going to destroy their subs. SQ is a key factor for movies and music without distortion. Audio is a blackhole and each person has to decide how much money they are willing to throw down the hole to achieve X level of performance. In JD defense, his initial statements were not putting anyone down. I think the argument is really over how loosely people are using the term Reference level. Most of us that value our hearing don't listen to things at Reference Level, I hop, lol. I spent a lot of money changing things in and out to achieve a system that can do Reference level output for all the speakers. Maybe more than I should have spent, lol.
JapanDave likes this.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

Yaquin VK 2100 amp, McIntosh XR 5 speakers, Samsung BDP F 7500
derrickdj1 is offline  
post #196 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 05:56 PM
Advanced Member
 
Steve1981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Maryland
Posts: 635
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Liked: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

A "calibration standard” or "Industry Standard", it is a recognized level of calibration output considered for the home setting by the industry . So yes, just a matter of wording.

Look closer. J_Palmer_Cass stated:
Quote:
There is no industry standard of 115 dB SPL for subwoofers in a home setting.
The crux of his post as I see it wasn't a semantic argument to replace the term "industry standards" with "calibration standards"; he rightly pointed out that 115dB isn't the maximum a subwoofer may be expected to deliver at the listening position.
Quote:
As for the level, it is generally taken that the 105db + 10db as the 'Norm' in most circumstances.
Not sure where you're going with this. When you add redirected content from bass managed speakers into the equation, 115dB is no longer the theoretical or practical max. I'm unaware of anybody debating this point. That said, if you're measuring the performance of your system at a 115dB nominal level down to 2Hz, I won't argue that's about as much stress as it's likely to see. Of course, if you're planning for 115dB down to 2Hz, what's another 8dB for good measure wink.gif
Steve1981 is offline  
post #197 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 06:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 6,594
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Liked: 779
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

People are using Reference Level incorrectly. Yes, 115 db is the peak LFE output but, it dose not define at what Hz. The critical range is 30-60 Hz for this output. FR graphs are good to see what is going on in the room and what one can reasonably reproduce in their room. You don't need to be able to hit 115 db at 15 or 20 Hz at the MLP to qualify for having a good HT and enjoy it. Most people should not try to do a 115 db sweep at the MLP at 10 or 15 Hz because someone is going to destroy their subs. SQ is a key factor for movies and music without distortion. Audio is a blackhole and each person has to decide how much money they are willing to throw down the hole to achieve X level of performance. In JD defense, his initial statements were not putting anyone down. I think the argument is really over how loosely people are using the term Reference level. Most of us that value our hearing don't listen to things at Reference Level, I hop, lol. I spent a lot of money changing things in and out to achieve a system that can do Reference level output for all the speakers. Maybe more than I should have spent, lol.

The THX site indicates for subwoofers:

Movies, music and games are featuring more deep bass elements than ever before. To accurately recreate the roar of the jet engine or the sound of a freeway bridge collapsing, THX certification requires bass from all channels, including LFE, be redirected to the subwoofer. For this reason, THX Certified Subwoofers must extend to 20Hz (-6dB) to handle the very highest bass levels with ease.

I couldn't find the plus 10db spec over the speakers, tho.

lovinthehd is online now  
post #198 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 06:43 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
JapanDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Look closer. J_Palmer_Cass stated:
The crux of his post as I see it wasn't a semantic argument to replace the term "industry standards" with "calibration standards"; he rightly pointed out that 115dB isn't the maximum a subwoofer may be expected to deliver at the listening position.
Not sure where you're going with this. When you add redirected content from bass managed speakers into the equation, 115dB is no longer the theoretical or practical max. I'm unaware of anybody debating this point. That said, if you're measuring the performance of your system at a 115dB nominal level down to 2Hz, I won't argue that's about as much stress as it's likely to see. Of course, if you're planning for 115dB down to 2Hz, what's another 8dB for good measure wink.gif
Who decided on the "calibration standard"?

And I never said anything about maximum SPL levels required for the sub-woofer. We can't know for sure how someone will set there speakers up and to my understanding depending on how the speakers are set up it certainly is possible that the highest SPL level required of the sub-woofer is in fact 115db. (If I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it, I am no where near as knowledgeable as some of the DIY's on this forum) So theoretically these two SPL levels of 115db's and 123db's are both correct. But, as a general rule the lower SPL level is usually chosen as the reference standard for the sub woofer. That is what I am getting at. smile.gif


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

JapanDave is offline  
post #199 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 07:10 PM
Advanced Member
 
Steve1981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Maryland
Posts: 635
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Liked: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Who decided on the "calibration standard"?
If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say the folks at Dolby Labs, though in the grand scheme of the conversation, it's neither here nor there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

And I never said anything about maximum SPL levels required for the sub-woofer.
I'd opine that you're certainly implying it by stating that folks should be stating their system's effective extension within the context of reference level, and specifically 115dB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

We can't know for sure how someone will set there speakers up and to my understanding depending on how the speakers are set up it certainly is possible that the highest SPL level required of the sub-woofer is in fact 115db. (If I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it, I am no where near as knowledgeable as some of the DIY's on this forum) So theoretically these two SPL levels of 115db's and 123db's are both correct.
No doubt, there are many ways to set up a system (and of course, one could never listen at reference level); however, it is the THX standard to utilize bass management on all channels, and it's generally advisable in any case as there are practical reasons to do so beyond the simple fact that most speakers aren't capable of true full range performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

But, as a general rule the lower SPL level is usually chosen as the reference standard for the sub woofer. That is what I am getting at. smile.gif
Chosen by who? If it depends on how the system is set up (which I'd agree with), then arbitrarily choosing the lower number makes no sense.
oneeyeblind likes this.
Steve1981 is offline  
post #200 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 07:56 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
JapanDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say the folks at Dolby Labs, though in the grand scheme of the conversation, it's neither here nor there.
Is Dolby not part of the industry?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

I'd opine that you're certainly implying it by stating that folks should be stating their system's effective extension within the context of reference level, and specifically 115dB.
Now , I may be talking specifically about this forum, but when it is discussed I have always seen the 115db level be referenced continuously not the higher level. But, if that is a better standard to reference to, I am all for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

No doubt, there are many ways to set up a system (and of course, one could never listen at reference level); however, it is the THX standard to utilize bass management on all channels, and it's generally advisable in any case as there are practical reasons to do so beyond the simple fact that most speakers aren't capable of true full range performance.
Chosen by who? If it depends on how the system is set up (which I'd agree with), then arbitrarily choosing the lower number makes no sense.
I have no idea who chose it, it seems to be a gentleman's agreement amongst enthusiasts. Well that is how I have seen it and I have pretty much tried to stick to it from the first day I was explained what the reference level was and being flat to it.

And now you are talking about two different standards, the Dolby one and the THX one. Which is the correct one to use? So I don't really see it as arbitrarily selecting the 115db level.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

JapanDave is offline  
post #201 of 206 Old 03-25-2014, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 2,461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 674

If not mistaken, the LFE channel requires the sub to be able to handle 115 dB peaks for reference level.  However, since non LFE bass is redirected from all speakers in a surround setup, the max output that could possibly be placed on a subwoofer during peaks, including the LFE channel and redirected bass could be higher than this:

 

"The maximum SPL that subwoofers could be asked to reproduce from the low frequency effects track is therefore 115dB at the listening position. In reality the situation is nearly always worse because the subwoofer must additionally reproduce bass managed* content from other channels. These challenges mean that multiple large subwoofers are typically needed to be able to properly reproduce the soundtrack as the director intended.

* Bass managed content is that from other speaker channels that has been diverted to the subwoofer. In home audio video receivers (AVRs) and pre-processors this is done by setting the speakers to small in the bass management menu and specifying a crossover frequency. With surround speakers, for example, an 80Hz crossover is typically used. This means that any content in the surround channels under 80Hz is essentially diverted to the subwoofer. For 5 bass managed speakers an additional 6dB and for 7 bass managed speakers an additional 8dB of output may be required from the subwoofer channel."


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

bear123 is offline  
post #202 of 206 Old 03-26-2014, 03:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
derrickdj1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,460
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 146
Although the sub/s may in theory be ask to produce 121 or 122 db, this does not occur very often if not as rare as a blood moon, lol. The 115 db that a sub has to reach from the LFE channel includes the band of 30-60 Hz. The movie industry intent is make an enjoyable film that can be in several formats, 2.0, 5.1, DTS, DD, ect. All of the formats may present a particular film slightly different. One thing for sure is that 97 to 98% of the film is always on 2.0 so that the movie can be show on regular TV. Things rattle in my room well above even at 50 or 60 Hz .

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

Yaquin VK 2100 amp, McIntosh XR 5 speakers, Samsung BDP F 7500
derrickdj1 is offline  
post #203 of 206 Old 03-26-2014, 03:14 AM
Member
 
Dasteru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Cost no object, and given the fact that i'm completely bat $#!t crazy. 8 Funk audio FW-18.0s, 2 stacked in each corner of the room. Possibly even get some custom dual opposing ones made and use 8 of those.

Oh and just to add, my room is only 15' x 15'.
shadyJ likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Dasteru is offline  
post #204 of 206 Old 03-26-2014, 04:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,609
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked: 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dasteru View Post

Cost no object, and given the fact that i'm completely bat $#!t crazy. 8 Funk audio FW-18.0s, 2 stacked in each corner of the room. Possibly even get some custom dual opposing ones made and use 8 of those.

Oh and just to add, my room is only 15' x 15'.

+++1, oh hell yeah, now we are talking!
shadyJ is online now  
post #205 of 206 Old 03-26-2014, 05:50 AM
Advanced Member
 
Steve1981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Maryland
Posts: 635
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Liked: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Is Dolby not part of the industry? ...And now you are talking about two different standards, the Dolby one and the THX one. Which is the correct one to use? So I don't really see it as arbitrarily selecting the 115db level.
Dolby is indeed part of the industry, though again, the point of J_Palmer_Cass' post (which you quoted in its entirety when you said it was just a matter of wording) and my interjection wasn't a semantic debate between "calibration standards" and "industry standards". However, with respect to Dolby vs THX, there is an important difference. Dolby, as it relates to home theater, is primarily defining the content on the disc, i.e. in the case of the original Dolby digital, five full range channels plus the 0.1 channel for LFE content which is boosted 10dB over the others. THX (among other things) aims to define how that content should be reproduced, i.e. certified loudspeakers, subwoofers, receivers, as well as specifying bass management, i.e. an 80Hz crossover on all five channels, with bass redirected to the subwoofer(s). Don't care about THX standards? That's fine too; it doesn't really matter. If you're utilizing bass management, your subwoofer is being asked to reproduce more than the LFE channel; there's really not much more to it than that. Not utilizing bass management? Arguably you're doing it wrong and likely to be in the minority, but then 115dB would apply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Now , I may be talking specifically about this forum, but when it is discussed I have always seen the 115db level be referenced continuously not the higher level. But, if that is a better standard to reference to, I am all for it....I have no idea who chose it, it seems to be a gentleman's agreement amongst enthusiasts. Well that is how I have seen it and I have pretty much tried to stick to it from the first day I was explained what the reference level was and being flat to it.
Thanks for the clarification Dave.
JapanDave likes this.
Steve1981 is offline  
post #206 of 206 Old 03-27-2014, 10:59 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,450
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Liked: 428
If one can show a 115 dB sine wave sweep flat from 3-120hz then any material on disc can be played at reference levels. Sine waves are much harder than peaks from movies.
MKtheater is online now  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Tags
Xs30

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off