PSA XV15(DUALS) or HSU VTF-15H(DUALS) - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 88 Old 03-13-2014, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

According to the numbers I see on PSA's website, it would take four XV15's to = one triax, so I am not sure what you looked at to figure that 2 would be equivalent.  I am coming up with duals being down 6 dB, assuming you got the full 6 dB benefit from duals.  To get another 6 would require going from 2 to 4.  Another full 6 dB gain would be needed to reach triax output levels.

3 XV15's in theroy would net 117db 20-31hz, and 125db 40-63hz, so they would have a slight advantage around the tune and still come up a couple db short in the mid bass. So yes 4 XV15's to best a Triax. Even at that the Triax probably still yields better sound quality and much deeper extension. So when you look at it like that the 3k price tag is not all that bad. However with a budget of 3k I would rather have 3-4 XV15's to smooth the response. A single sub can actually end up with less output then its 2m rms numbers after EQ is applied. The more subs, the less EQ is needed, which equals more headroom.

Take your Room for example Bear...with that mid bass null you have, any auto EQ device would probably eat up a bunch of headroom trying to flatten that response. As you quickly found out using the PSW110 to smooth the response worked well. In your situation I would bet dual XS15's would end up with more headroom then a single XS30 in your after EQ.
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post #32 of 88 Old 03-13-2014, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

. A single sub can actually end up with less output then its 2m rms numbers after EQ is applied. The more subs, the less EQ is needed, which equals more headroom.

This is actually a very good point.  One of those things you kind of know but but its still kind of an AHA moment to see it stated.

 

I think my plan is going to be an XS15 near field to replace the Polk sub after the summer, have some other things draining the savings accout and the XS30 was double what my original thought was on purchasing a sub.  I am thinking this will work quite well as it has the same low frequency roll off slope as the XS30, and with lower gain due to being close to the MLP I think it will be a great match up.  This way I will get smoothing across the entire FR instead of just 40-60.  Course, a few monster overtime checks could speed up the process :)


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

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post #33 of 88 Old 03-13-2014, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

This is actually a very good point.  One of those things you kind of know but but its still kind of an AHA moment to see it stated.

I think my plan is going to be an XS15 near field to replace the Polk sub after the summer, have some other things draining the savings accout and the XS30 was double what my original thought was on purchasing a sub.  I am thinking this will work quite well as it has the same low frequency roll off slope as the XS30, and with lower gain due to being close to the MLP I think it will be a great match up.  This way I will get smoothing across the entire FR instead of just 40-60.  Course, a few monster overtime checks could speed up the process smile.gif

I think that would make for a nice sub system myself. cool.gif
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post #34 of 88 Old 03-13-2014, 07:02 PM
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^^ Nah, he is gonna end up with another xs30 smile.gif
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post #35 of 88 Old 03-13-2014, 09:15 PM
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^^ Nah, he is gonna end up with another xs30 smile.gif

Well you know, in espresso it sure would make a nice end table..............:D


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LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

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post #36 of 88 Old 03-13-2014, 09:55 PM
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^^ no doubt plus the performance from 4 15" drivers. Win win situation here, for sure.
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post #37 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I can see this process of decision making is way harder than I thought It would be. Yes the HSU dual VTF-15H''s is right at the max (2k) of what I want to spend, but for I believe $188 more I can get the dual XS30 PSA's. This would also be a slightly smaller foot print. I would also think being sealed I would get tighter performance with music. How about HT? I do like ported for HT is why I ask. My room six is medium at best and not to open.

Thanks,

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post #38 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 09:56 AM
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Dual XS30's would be pretty nice setup imo. They definitely would have much more headroom then the XV15 or VTF-15 above 30hz and would be pretty close in the 15-30hz area. The ported subs would have a advantage around the tune by a few DB.
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post #39 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 10:04 AM
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The XS footprint is smaller than the 15h and that being deeper and taller...it was something I had to consider as well. In my sig you can see a Svs SB13U atop my XS30...the XS30 is not small and was about the same size as my last sub which BTW was ported... so its big by some peoples standards and small by others....especially most of those on AVS..biggrin.gif

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post #40 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 10:05 AM
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Mini-Wheat,
Adding about $300 more will get you a FV15hp and adding about $250 more get you a passive Captivator 2400, etc... You just have to decide what you want and how much you are willing to spend. I like port for movie but other like the seal xs30 for movie also.
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post #41 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 10:11 AM
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Yup...every $200-$300 gets you to that next level in sub performance...but for some like myself...we gotta stop somewhere..smile.gif
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Old Indian proverb: We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors, but we borrow it from our children!

Ascend Acoustics (NrT)Towers, STC w RAAL, 200 SE in espresso
54" of Panasonic Bliss, Anthem MRX 300
Sony BDP-S380, TechnicsCD player, Apple TV
PSA XS30 SE in Cordovan Cherry & Svs SB13U in sig
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post #42 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

Yup...every $200-$300 gets you to that next level in sub performance...but for some like myself...we gotta stop somewhere..smile.gif

So true! Before you know it your budget that started at $1000 is now at $2000 wink.gif

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post #43 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 01:08 PM
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Someone came here for an advise on a $100 Polk sub and ended up with a Rythmik FV15hps frown.gif
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post #44 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 01:24 PM
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Yup...every $200-$300 gets you to that next level in sub performance...but for some like myself...we gotta stop somewhere..smile.gif

Isn't that so true with everything cool.gif

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post #45 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Thats' too funny:D

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post #46 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 02:32 PM
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I think you should research those three options, as they would all work great for you:

 

Duals of

 

PSA XV-15

HSU VTF15

PSA XS30

 

Yes ported subs normally have an advantage around the tune of their port.  The reason the XS30 is able to be close in this area is of course that you have double the drivers.  So as mentioned it is close around tune and about double above that.  It will also extend lower.  But it busts your budget a bit.  Good luck with your decision.  :)

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AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

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post #47 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 03:25 PM
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Pointing out the correct amp is not nit-picking. Don't go all beeman on me! wink.gif

Sorry, but that's funny right there!
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post #48 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Hands down the HSU. (i own a pair)

How are they being pushed loud with music(rock)? 

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post #49 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 08:31 PM
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How are they being pushed loud with music(rock)? 

Keep in mind rock music tends to stay above 40 Hz. Here is a comparative measurement between the VTF15h and the XV15 when they are both pushed to their limits in burst testing:



You can see the VTF15h stays well within a +/- 0.5 dB response from 40 Hz on up. Considering that a decibel is about as fine an increment of loudness that humans can hear, that is nearly flawless. The XV15 on the other hand doesn't stay nearly as accurate when pushed. In fact it is down by 6 dB from 50 Hz to 100 Hz, which means it can only play 100 hz notes half as loud as 50 hz notes, so one octave plays twice as loud as the above octave. That is some pretty serious compression. What's crazy to me (and what I take a lot of heat around here for pointing out) is that even though the VTF15h has more output, much less compression, half the distortion, and superior decay times, PSA still advertises the XV15 as somehow being a higher performing product:



Lol, how can they make that claim?! It's misleading at best. I wouldn't trust any performance claims by PSA because of this. Don't take my word about anything I have said here, you can see and compare a comprehensive set of measurements between them here: the VTF15h and the XV15.
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post #50 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 08:45 PM
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OP, I can certainly appreciate the desire to make the correct choice when spending this much money on subs.  However, I think you have narrowed it down to two subs that could be argued back and forth over all day as far as to which is superior.  Even if one were to come out on top, I believe the differences would be rather negligible in the grand scheme of things.

 

My advice?  Rather than agonize over which is "best", take into account which company you would prefer to do business with.  Which one looks better to you sitting in your room?  Which finish do you like better?  How important is warranty?  Adjustability?  Dimensions?  I believe these secondary considerations will do more to set the subs apart than their difference in performance.

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AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

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post #51 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

VTF15h between those choices, but if I had $2k to spend on subs, I would go DIY. UXL-18s in martysubs, and some iNukes.

And you'd still have money left over in your pocket!
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post #52 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 10:30 PM
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And you'd still have money left over in your pocket!

Easy to say when you have somebody building your enclosures in exchange for beer. tongue.gif
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post #53 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 10:36 PM
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Easy to say when you have somebody building your enclosures in exchange for beer. tongue.gif

LOL.... hold up there cowboy, no one built my enclosures for me. I was just lucky enough to have a fellow forum member close by who happens to be a woodshop teacher to help me cut up all of the wood. Make no mistake about it, my subs were all hand assembled by me.

Now I'm just waiting for you to come to the dark side!...lol

On a side not to the OP, if you really are considering a DIY sub; forum member chalugadp owned a VTF-15H and built a Marty cube sub using a SI 18 and iNuke 3000DSP to power it. After doing so he used REW to measure them, and @20hz the Marty cube had about a 8-9dB advantage over the VTF-15H. So that's something to think about if you are considering DIY.
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post #54 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

OP, I can certainly appreciate the desire to make the correct choice when spending this much money on subs.  However, I think you have narrowed it down to two subs that could be argued back and forth over all day as far as to which is superior.  Even if one were to come out on top, I believe the differences would be rather negligible in the grand scheme of things.

My advice?  Rather than agonize over which is "best", take into account which company you would prefer to do business with.  Which one looks better to you sitting in your room?  Which finish do you like better?  How important is warranty?  Adjustability?  Dimensions?  I believe these secondary considerations will do more to set the subs apart than their difference in performance.







The negligible difference made all the difference for me, they are very good subs but after demo ing both in my room. One really dips deeper than the other.
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post #55 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Keep in mind rock music tends to stay above 40 Hz. Here is a comparative measurement between the VTF15h and the XV15 when they are both pushed to their limits in burst testing:



You can see the VTF15h stays well within a +/- 0.5 dB response from 40 Hz on up. Considering that a decibel is about as fine an increment of loudness that humans can hear, that is nearly flawless. The XV15 on the other hand doesn't stay nearly as accurate when pushed. In fact it is down by 6 dB from 50 Hz to 100 Hz, which means it can only play 100 hz notes half as loud as 50 hz notes, so one octave plays twice as loud as the above octave. That is some pretty serious compression. What's crazy to me (and what I take a lot of heat around here for pointing out) is that even though the VTF15h has more output, much less compression, half the distortion, and superior decay times, PSA still advertises the XV15 as somehow being a higher performing product:



Lol, how can they make that claim?! It's misleading at best. I wouldn't trust any performance claims by PSA because of this. Don't take my word about anything I have said here, you can see and compare a comprehensive set of measurements between them here: the VTF15h and the XV15.

The .2 is for being made in America wink.gif
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

LOL.... hold up there cowboy, no one built me enclosures for me. I was just lucky enough to have a fellow forum member close by who happens to be a woodshop teacher to help me cut up all of the wood. Make no mistake about it, my subs were all hand assembled by me.

Now I'm just waiting for you to come to the dark side!...lol

On a side not to the OP, if you really are considering a DIY sub; forum member chalugadp owned a VTF-15H and built a Marty cube sub using a SI 18 and iNuke 3000DSP to power it. After doing so he used REW to measure them, and @20hz the Marty cube had about a 8-9dB advantage over the VTF-15H. So that's something to think about if you are considering DIY.

Sorry JB, I thought Chalugadp helped build them. The day is coming...I just do not know when that day is.
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post #56 of 88 Old 03-14-2014, 10:55 PM
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The .2 is for being made in America wink.gif
Sorry JB, I thought Chalugadp helped build them. The day is coming...I just do not know when that day is.

He helped, it was nice having a second set of hands to help assemble them.
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post #57 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

VTF15h between those choices, but if I had $2k to spend on subs, I would go DIY. UXL-18s in martysubs, and some iNukes.

Excuse me for this question, but aren't these home built projects? I don not know squat and that is why I need already built/tested subs by professionals. I visualize myself making a sub, playing it for a minute, and then taking it out back and killing it with my Benelli shotgun.

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post #58 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by booga24 View Post


The negligible difference made all the difference for me, they are very good subs but after demo ing both in my room. One really dips deeper than the other.

Sounds like you should be able to offer some valuable insight for the OP.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

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post #59 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Sounds like you should be able to offer some valuable insight for the OP.

Yea it does dig deeper according to data-bass.com. it passed 12.5hz where the XV15 did not. I believe if the XV15 2nd order THD did not ramp up so high below 20hz it would of passed 12.5hz being Ricci recorded 94db @ 12.5hz in room. That tells me it was on the edge of passing outdoors. no doubt the HSU is a better all around sub as it should be for the increased cost.

Booga24, I am interested to hear your thoughts about each subwoofer. You say the VTF digs deeper which I am sure it does, but how do they compare output wise? Notice and distortion differences between the 2? Any port noise from the VTF in 1 port?
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post #60 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I am within hours of choosing either dual FV15HP's or XV30'S

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