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post #61 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Mini-Wheat View Post

I am within hours of choosing either dual FV15HP's or XV30'S

And then you'll have approximately a week (or more) of waiting for the subs to arrive to second guess your purchase wink.gif

(we have all done that smile.gif )

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post #62 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Mini-Wheat View Post

I am within hours of choosing either dual FV15HP's or XV30'S


A few thoughts that may only muddy the water, but anyway; based on data available online:

Through measurements are available for the XV-15 on data-bass.com, not for the XV-30. CEA2010 measurements are far from complete in characterizing a sub. Without more complete measurements it isn't clear what performance the XV-30 delivers.

The XV-15 is less expensive than the FV15HP but also has worse overall numbers on data-bass than the FV15HP.

Originally a HSU VTF-15H was also being considered. It also has much better numbers than the XV-15.

Compression results on data-bass imply the XV-15 is limited to 105 dB or so based on compression at 110 dB. Distortion rises at higher frequencies which seems odd. Both the HSU and Rythmik units have higher output. Without data-bass measurements the actual performance of the XV-30 is unknown. It should have more raw output; but how cleanly, and over what range, with what level of compression, isn't clear.

Both the FV15HP and VTF-15H have much more flexibility in configuration. Q's can be varied and ports plugged to best match a room and the listener's preferences. Either of these choices can be configured almost as two or three different subs. The XV's appear to have none of this.
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post #63 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mini-Wheat View Post

Excuse me for this question, but aren't these home built projects? I don not know squat and that is why I need already built/tested subs by professionals. I visualize myself making a sub, playing it for a minute, and then taking it out back and killing it with my Benelli shotgun.

DIY isn't for everybody and a year ago I basically thought the same thing as you. But its really not as hard as you think it is, especially with the amount of knowledge that's available for free on these forums. I had dual PSA XS30's up until about a month ago too, I sold them after I built my subs.

Here's one example of the Marty cube that's been mentioned a few times in your thread, it has roughly the same footprint as the VTF-15H and twice the output of the subs that you are considering.



Of the three subs you are considering I would say get the FV15HP.

Here's another take on one with a grill.

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post #64 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post


DIY isn't for everybody and a year ago I basically thought the same thing as you. But its really not as hard as you think it is, especially with the amount of knowledge that's available for free on these forums. I had dual PSA XS30's up until about a month ago too, I sold them after I built my subs.

Here's one example of the Marty cube that's been mentioned a few times in your thread, it has roughly the same footprint as the VTF-15H and twice the output of the subs that you are considering.



Of the three subs you are considering I would say get the FV15HP.

Here's another take on one with a grill.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yep Dual Martys are in my future.  I will move my little subs I have now into the living room.

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post #65 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Done deal, I just ordered dual FV15HP's. Yes I did bust the budget, but I believe I left nothing to chance and will not have any regrets. Thanks, you have been very helpful.

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post #66 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

DIY isn't for everybody and a year ago I basically thought the same thing as you. But its really not as hard as you think it is, especially with the amount of knowledge that's available for free on these forums. I had dual PSA XS30's up until about a month ago too, I sold them after I built my subs.

Here's one example of the Marty cube that's been mentioned a few times in your thread, it has roughly the same footprint as the VTF-15H and twice the output of the subs that you are considering.



Of the three subs you are considering I would say get the FV15HP.

Here's another take on one with a grill.






I know we don't have data for Submersive but how does these compare to it?
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post #67 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Yea it does dig deeper according to data-bass.com. it passed 12.5hz where the XV15 did not. I believe if the XV15 2nd order THD did not ramp up so high below 20hz it would of passed 12.5hz being Ricci recorded 94db @ 12.5hz in room. That tells me it was on the edge of passing outdoors. no doubt the HSU is a better all around sub as it should be for the increased cost.

Booga24, I am interested to hear your thoughts about each subwoofer. You say the VTF digs deeper which I am sure it does, but how do they compare output wise? Notice and distortion differences between the 2? Any port noise from the VTF in 1 port?





I posted this earlier in another thread.




First off these are two capable subs produced by two nice guys (Tom V and the Doc), good guys to deal with for support and help. Room is 12 W X 21L X 8 H sealed.

Projector Sony HW50
Screen SI 133"
Denon X4000
Aprerion 5T (7.0 Speaker set up
Oppo 103D
Synology DS 213
Apple tv

Okay now to the sub business; I was in the same position as you are last year but after months of research and following shadyj and basshead81 battle out with their passion for each company, I ordered XV15 after communicating with Tom V (again great guy to deal with). After calibration my AVR set the sub at -4db which I felt was not strong enough so I increased the LEF level in the AVR to 0, then started watching the 5 star bass movies I had. Truth be told the bass was awesome and the sub was pressurizing the whole room.

Then I throw in OHF with Monument scene (which we all know is one of the most challenging bass scenes in movies), I heard a port noise and it kinda killed it for me cos I hate port noise. I had to lower the LEF level in the AVR to get rid of the port noise which to me meant I needed more sub than the XV15 was giving me, so it was time to jump to the next level on the food chain which was VTF 15 or FV15.

I ordered the VTF15 and after calibration my AVR set the LEF at -7 which again I increased to 0, bass was awesome and best of all to me was no port noise listening at 0.0 (reference level). The only reason I return the XV15 was the port noise with a couple scenes but overall a very capable sub and sometimes I miss the mid bass punch of XV15.

PS: Is the VTF 15 a better sub? absolutely yes, buy what you can afford from XV15 to VTF15 to FV15HP ( I am very happy with my VTF 15 even though sometimes I feel like I should have jump one level higher with FV15HP but I am just gonna add another VTF 15 and I also see those Marty cubes in the near future smile.gif.


OP you made the right choice with FV15 enjoy.

Basshead81-no distortion from each sub in my room and no port noise from the VTF-15.
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post #68 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booga24 View Post

I posted this earlier in another thread.




First off these are two capable subs produced by two nice guys (Tom V and the Doc), good guys to deal with for support and help. Room is 12 W X 21L X 8 H sealed.

Projector Sony HW50
Screen SI 133"
Denon X4000
Aprerion 5T (7.0 Speaker set up
Oppo 103D
Synology DS 213
Apple tv

Okay now to the sub business; I was in the same position as you are last year but after months of research and following shadyj and basshead81 battle out with their passion for each company, I ordered XV15 after communicating with Tom V (again great guy to deal with). After calibration my AVR set the sub at -4db which I felt was not strong enough so I increased the LEF level in the AVR to 0, then started watching the 5 star bass movies I had. Truth be told the bass was awesome and the sub was pressurizing the whole room.

Then I throw in OHF with Monument scene (which we all know is one of the most challenging bass scenes in movies), I heard a port noise and it kinda killed it for me cos I hate port noise. I had to lower the LEF level in the AVR to get rid of the port noise which to me meant I needed more sub than the XV15 was giving me, so it was time to jump to the next level on the food chain which was VTF 15 or FV15.

I ordered the VTF15 and after calibration my AVR set the LEF at -7 which again I increased to 0, bass was awesome and best of all to me was no port noise listening at 0.0 (reference level). The only reason I return the XV15 was the port noise with a couple scenes but overall a very capable sub and sometimes I miss the mid bass punch of XV15.

PS: Is the VTF 15 a better sub? absolutely yes, buy what you can afford from XV15 to VTF15 to FV15HP ( I am very happy with my VTF 15 even though sometimes I feel like I should have jump one level higher with FV15HP but I am just gonna add another VTF 15 and I also see those Marty cubes in the near future smile.gif.


OP you made the right choice with FV15 enjoy.

Basshead81-no distortion from each sub in my room and no port noise from the VTF-15.

Thanks for the reply!! I appreciate your input being you have had the chance to hear both in your room. Are you using the VTF in 1 port or 2 port?
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post #69 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post

A few thoughts that may only muddy the water, but anyway; based on data available online:

Through measurements are available for the XV-15 on data-bass.com, not for the XV-30. CEA2010 measurements are far from complete in characterizing a sub. Without more complete measurements it isn't clear what performance the XV-30 delivers.

The XV-15 is less expensive than the FV15HP but also has worse overall numbers on data-bass than the FV15HP.

Originally a HSU VTF-15H was also being considered. It also has much better numbers than the XV-15.

Compression results on data-bass imply the XV-15 is limited to 105 dB or so based on compression at 110 dB. Distortion rises at higher frequencies which seems odd. Both the HSU and Rythmik units have higher output. Without data-bass measurements the actual performance of the XV-30 is unknown. It should have more raw output; but how cleanly, and over what range, with what level of compression, isn't clear.

Both the FV15HP and VTF-15H have much more flexibility in configuration. Q's can be varied and ports plugged to best match a room and the listener's preferences. Either of these choices can be configured almost as two or three different subs. The XV's appear to have none of this.
the XV15 is not limited to 105db...it is capable of much more then that. It stays under 10% thd down to 24hz on the 110db sweep. Please read the know how tab before you attempt to muddy the water.
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post #70 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 06:29 PM
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Congrats Mini on the FV15HP purchase!! That was the best choice of all three by far imo.
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post #71 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booga24 View Post

I posted this earlier in another thread.




First off these are two capable subs produced by two nice guys (Tom V and the Doc), good guys to deal with for support and help. Room is 12 W X 21L X 8 H sealed.

Projector Sony HW50
Screen SI 133"
Denon X4000
Aprerion 5T (7.0 Speaker set up
Oppo 103D
Synology DS 213
Apple tv

Okay now to the sub business; I was in the same position as you are last year but after months of research and following shadyj and basshead81 battle out with their passion for each company, I ordered XV15 after communicating with Tom V (again great guy to deal with). After calibration my AVR set the sub at -4db which I felt was not strong enough so I increased the LEF level in the AVR to 0, then started watching the 5 star bass movies I had. Truth be told the bass was awesome and the sub was pressurizing the whole room.

Then I throw in OHF with Monument scene (which we all know is one of the most challenging bass scenes in movies), I heard a port noise and it kinda killed it for me cos I hate port noise. I had to lower the LEF level in the AVR to get rid of the port noise which to me meant I needed more sub than the XV15 was giving me, so it was time to jump to the next level on the food chain which was VTF 15 or FV15.

I ordered the VTF15 and after calibration my AVR set the LEF at -7 which again I increased to 0, bass was awesome and best of all to me was no port noise listening at 0.0 (reference level). The only reason I return the XV15 was the port noise with a couple scenes but overall a very capable sub and sometimes I miss the mid bass punch of XV15.

PS: Is the VTF 15 a better sub? absolutely yes, buy what you can afford from XV15 to VTF15 to FV15HP ( I am very happy with my VTF 15 even though sometimes I feel like I should have jump one level higher with FV15HP but I am just gonna add another VTF 15 and I also see those Marty cubes in the near future smile.gif.


OP you made the right choice with FV15 enjoy.

Basshead81-no distortion from each sub in my room and no port noise from the VTF-15.


thanks-. if you get a chance id like to hear how that x4000 matches with those prerion 5T... i just ordered a 4520CI and am thinking about upgrading my speakers(PSB T45's).....

Panasonic 65" plasma*

Denon 4520* 

PSB T45* PSB B15* PSB C60*

Dual PSA XS30* Dual PSA XS15se*

Squeezbox*

Niles ZR-6 6 Source, 6 room Audio Reciever*

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post #72 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

the XV15 is not limited to 105db...it is capable of much more then that. It stays under 10% thd down to 24hz on the 110db sweep. Please read the know how tab before you attempt to muddy the water.

It can't get you anything above 105 with any semblance of linearity. Yes, it can get louder, but distortion goes way up and so does compression, and its >105 dB output is mainly limited between 30 and 80 Hz.
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post #73 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Mini-Wheat View Post
 

Done deal, I just ordered dual FV15HP's. Yes I did bust the budget, but I believe I left nothing to chance and will not have any regrets. Thanks, you have been very helpful.

Excellent!  Absolute monster output for their price, can't imagine you won't be blown away.  Keep us posted.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

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post #74 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 08:00 PM
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Excellent!  Absolute monster output for their price, can't imagine you won't be blown away.  Keep us posted.

Yes. Definitely let us know how they sound.smile.gif

Don't worry about keeping the thread alive until then. Shadyj and basshead will probably still be arguing. LOL

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post #75 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

It can't get you anything above 105 with any semblance of linearity. Yes, it can get louder, but distortion goes way up and so does compression, and its >105 dB output is mainly limited between 30 and 80 Hz.

Yea ok...
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Yes. Definitely let us know how they sound.smile.gif

Don't worry about keeping the thread alive until then. Shadyj and basshead will probably still be arguing. LOL

Who is arguing?
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post #76 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Congrats Mini on the FV15HP purchase!! That was the best choice of all three by far imo.
+1. I was in the same boat about a year plus ago trying to decide between the vtf15 and fv15hp. I was so close to order the vtf15 since I owned the vtf2 before and like that. Luckily, I was working in Anaheim, so I swung by HSU and listened to the vtf15 pair. The pair didn't impress me as I was expecting. Then came the new company PSA XV15 (The only port sub available at the time) that seem to be a very good value sub but I didn't think the xv15 could be as good or better than the vtf15, so I decided to get the fv15hp after reading numerous GTG threads, Ricci's review, YouTube of the fv15hp shaking houses. And now with Dom's ULF score thread to put it to perspective. Mini, you will love the pair. It is a hell of a sub. Congrats.
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post #77 of 88 Old 03-15-2014, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post


Yes. Definitely let us know how they sound.smile.gif

Don't worry about keeping the thread alive until then. Shadyj and basshead will probably still be arguing. LOL

Now that is funny.

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post #78 of 88 Old 03-16-2014, 01:05 PM
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This is a repeat:

A few thoughts that may only muddy the water, but anyway; based on data available online:

Through measurements are available for the XV-15 on data-bass.com, not for the XV-30. CEA2010 measurements are far from complete in characterizing a sub. Without more complete measurements it isn't clear what performance the XV-30 delivers.

The XV-15 is less expensive than the FV15HP but also has worse overall numbers on data-bass than the FV15HP.

Originally a HSU VTF-15H was also being considered. It also has much better numbers than the XV-15.

Compression results on data-bass imply the XV-15 is limited to 105 dB or so based on compression at 110 dB. Distortion rises at higher frequencies which seems odd. Both the HSU and Rythmik units have higher output. Without data-bass measurements the actual performance of the XV-30 is unknown. It should have more raw output; but how cleanly, and over what range, with what level of compression, isn't clear.

Both the FV15HP and VTF-15H have much more flexibility in configuration. Q's can be varied and ports plugged to best match a room and the listener's preferences. Either of these choices can be configured almost as two or three different subs. The XV's appear to have none of this.

Then:
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

the XV15 is not limited to 105db...it is capable of much more then that. It stays under 10% thd down to 24hz on the 110db sweep. Please read the know how tab before you attempt to muddy the water.


First some background:

The excellent presentation format in data-base.com already made it straightforward to understand the data as presented, however reference was made to the Know-How tab in preparing the text. The following comes from hopefully a correct reading and interpretation of the data on the XV-15 that is presented at data-base.com, and from opinions of the writer.

The 110 dB sweep on the Total Harmonic Distortion (Sweeps) chart is based on a scaled input to the sub based on the 90 dB acoustic output at 50 Hz; this 90 dB input is then increased by 20 dB to get the 110 dB voltage input to the sub. The 110 dB sweep is not a sweep at an actual acoustic output of 110 dB but rather a sweep at a calculated voltage input level to the sub.

This is clearer on the Long Term Power Compression chart. Here all of the dB levels are referenced to the INPUT voltage level required to get 90 dB output at 50 Hz. Note how the lines which are labeled with the dB outputs actually aren't those outputs or they would be horizontal and in line with their label on the vertical axis. The lines are labeled with the output the sub WOULD put out if it responded linearly, both by input level and frequency, to a voltage input. That voltage input is established referencing an output of 90 dB at 50 Hz.

A much better general explanation of this how all this is calculated is available at data-base.com under the Know-How tabs, sections 5 and 6.

Let’s look at the XV-15:

The question of the output at 24 Hz:

The line labeled 110 dB on the Total Harmonic Distortion (sweeps) chart crossed the 10% distortion limit at around 24Hz as you noted. On the Long Term Power Compression chart the output at 24 Hz on the line labeled 110 dB is about 103 to 104 dB. 103 to 104 dB is the acoustic output when the input to the sub is, let’s say, “calling” for 110 dB at 24 Hz.

Overall output of the XV-15:

There are likely many ways to look at this. The following is one of those ways.

Looking at the Long Term Power Compression chart the line labeled 105 dB (red) is at 105dB of acoustic output at declining frequencies until about 50 Hz. Starting at 50 Hz the actual output starts dropping and the 105 dB line shows an acoustical output of about 100 dB at 20 Hz. Based on distortion the 10% limit was reached at about 22 Hz. This means the output of the XV-15 following the 105dB line is 105 dB until 50 Hz and then declines to somewhere under 100 dB by 20 Hz.

Let’s look at the line labeled 110 dB:

This line is under 10% distortion on the Total Harmonic Distortion chart from about 24 Hz to about 80 Hz. This doesn’t mean the acoustic output at those distortion levels is 110 dB as discussed above. Grossly the 110 dB line hits 105 dB of acoustical output at 28 Hz, 106dB at 30 Hz, 107 dB at 34 Hz, 108 dB at 42 Hz, 109 dB at 50 Hz and 110 dB at 72 Hz. The 10% distortion level is exceeded soon after 80 Hz.

The increase in distortion at higher frequencies may be due to a lack of shorting rings in the driver of the XV-15. Without these rings inductance of the driver with vary with frequency and cause distortion. These rings are a common feature in most drivers, including in the HSU and Rythmik products mentioned above. As an example of the problem this distortion causes; harmonic distortion from a 70 Hz primary frequency (8% on the 110 dB line) will occur at 140 Hz, 210 Hz and up. The origin of sound at these frequencies is easier to determine. Thus the sub may be easier to locate, and this characteristic will vary with the instantaneous frequency content and level sent to the sub.

Looking at the Long Term Power Compression (Magnitude) chart the 105dB line shows essentially no compression. The output following the 105dB line noted above is not affected by compression.

The 110dB line has compression of 5 dB at 20 Hz, declining to about .5 dB at 50 Hz and the increasing again to about 3 dB at 80 Hz. Looking at the overall compression curve, which essentially shows linear distortion, that is, an input to the sub at a certain frequency, say 30 Hz, does not increase output proportionately to that input. At 30 Hz, a 5 dB increase in input to the sub increases output by about 5 dB until the 110 dB input level where, with a 5 dB input increase, the output only increases by about 2 dB, the output is compressed by 3 dB. This 30 Hz output may seem to “fade away” relative to the 50 Hz output.

This compression raises a few issues. Looking at the Long Term Power Compression chart the effect of the peak in output shown by the 110 dB line may give the XV-15 a bit of a “one note” signature when it plays at its loudest. The relative output at each frequency will stay almost constant, not level response, the response curve will just maintain the same shape, until somewhere past 105 dB where increases in output will cause frequencies around 50 Hz to be emphasized. The lower frequencies especially will drop away. Output is already down at lower frequencies just due to the frequency response of the XV-15, compression will decrease it further.

The compression at lower frequencies may be due to port compression, and other effects which dissipate energy, but don’t contribute to intended acoustic output. Compression often brings associated discordant sounds from the port, driver, etc., as the sub is being stressed beyond optimum operating conditions.

Overall Output:

The line labeled 100 dB crosses the 10% distortion limit at 18 Hz where the acoustical output is 94 dB.

The line labeled 105 dB crosses the 10% distortion limit at 22 Hz where the acoustical output is 101 dB and rises to an acoustical output of about 105 dB at 50 Hz.

The line labeled 110 dB crosses the 10% distortion limit at 24 Hz where the acoustical output is 103 dB and rises to an acoustical output of 109 dB at 50 Hz and 110 dB at 72 Hz. This output is accompanied by relatively high levels of compression and rising distortion at higher frequencies with attendant problems.

Analysis:

Based on the above the XV-15 has relatively clean output from a bit below 100 dB at 20 Hz rising to 105 dB around 30 Hz. From 30 Hz up in frequency the sub seems clean at 103dB to 106 dB. That is around the 105 dB line on the Long Term Compression chart. The output represented by the 110 dB line has compression and higher frequency distortion issues. Based on the data available approximately 105 dB above 30 Hz is the highest demonstrated clean level for the sub. If data was available in 1dB increments above the 105 dB line it is possible that some additional clean output could be demonstrated.
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post #79 of 88 Old 03-16-2014, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post

This is a repeat:

A few thoughts that may only muddy the water, but anyway; based on data available online:

Through measurements are available for the XV-15 on data-bass.com, not for the XV-30. CEA2010 measurements are far from complete in characterizing a sub. Without more complete measurements it isn't clear what performance the XV-30 delivers.

The XV-15 is less expensive than the FV15HP but also has worse overall numbers on data-bass than the FV15HP.

Originally a HSU VTF-15H was also being considered. It also has much better numbers than the XV-15.

Compression results on data-bass imply the XV-15 is limited to 105 dB or so based on compression at 110 dB. Distortion rises at higher frequencies which seems odd. Both the HSU and Rythmik units have higher output. Without data-bass measurements the actual performance of the XV-30 is unknown. It should have more raw output; but how cleanly, and over what range, with what level of compression, isn't clear.

Both the FV15HP and VTF-15H have much more flexibility in configuration. Q's can be varied and ports plugged to best match a room and the listener's preferences. Either of these choices can be configured almost as two or three different subs. The XV's appear to have none of this.

Then:
First some background:

The excellent presentation format in data-base.com already made it straightforward to understand the data as presented, however reference was made to the Know-How tab in preparing the text. The following comes from hopefully a correct reading and interpretation of the data on the XV-15 that is presented at data-base.com, and from opinions of the writer.

The 110 dB sweep on the Total Harmonic Distortion (Sweeps) chart is based on a scaled input to the sub based on the 90 dB acoustic output at 50 Hz; this 90 dB input is then increased by 20 dB to get the 110 dB voltage input to the sub. The 110 dB sweep is not a sweep at an actual acoustic output of 110 dB but rather a sweep at a calculated voltage input level to the sub.

This is clearer on the Long Term Power Compression chart. Here all of the dB levels are referenced to the INPUT voltage level required to get 90 dB output at 50 Hz. Note how the lines which are labeled with the dB outputs actually aren't those outputs or they would be horizontal and in line with their label on the vertical axis. The lines are labeled with the output the sub WOULD put out if it responded linearly, both by input level and frequency, to a voltage input. That voltage input is established referencing an output of 90 dB at 50 Hz.

A much better general explanation of this how all this is calculated is available at data-base.com under the Know-How tabs, sections 5 and 6.

Let’s look at the XV-15:

The question of the output at 24 Hz:

The line labeled 110 dB on the Total Harmonic Distortion (sweeps) chart crossed the 10% distortion limit at around 24Hz as you noted. On the Long Term Power Compression chart the output at 24 Hz on the line labeled 110 dB is about 103 to 104 dB. 103 to 104 dB is the acoustic output when the input to the sub is, let’s say, “calling” for 110 dB at 24 Hz.

Overall output of the XV-15:

There are likely many ways to look at this. The following is one of those ways.

Looking at the Long Term Power Compression chart the line labeled 105 dB (red) is at 105dB of acoustic output at declining frequencies until about 50 Hz. Starting at 50 Hz the actual output starts dropping and the 105 dB line shows an acoustical output of about 100 dB at 20 Hz. Based on distortion the 10% limit was reached at about 22 Hz. This means the output of the XV-15 following the 105dB line is 105 dB until 50 Hz and then declines to somewhere under 100 dB by 20 Hz.

Let’s look at the line labeled 110 dB:

This line is under 10% distortion on the Total Harmonic Distortion chart from about 24 Hz to about 80 Hz. This doesn’t mean the acoustic output at those distortion levels is 110 dB as discussed above. Grossly the 110 dB line hits 105 dB of acoustical output at 28 Hz, 106dB at 30 Hz, 107 dB at 34 Hz, 108 dB at 42 Hz, 109 dB at 50 Hz and 110 dB at 72 Hz. The 10% distortion level is exceeded soon after 80 Hz.

The increase in distortion at higher frequencies may be due to a lack of shorting rings in the driver of the XV-15. Without these rings inductance of the driver with vary with frequency and cause distortion. These rings are a common feature in most drivers, including in the HSU and Rythmik products mentioned above. As an example of the problem this distortion causes; harmonic distortion from a 70 Hz primary frequency (8% on the 110 dB line) will occur at 140 Hz, 210 Hz and up. The origin of sound at these frequencies is easier to determine. Thus the sub may be easier to locate, and this characteristic will vary with the instantaneous frequency content and level sent to the sub.

Looking at the Long Term Power Compression (Magnitude) chart the 105dB line shows essentially no compression. The output following the 105dB line noted above is not affected by compression.

The 110dB line has compression of 5 dB at 20 Hz, declining to about .5 dB at 50 Hz and the increasing again to about 3 dB at 80 Hz. Looking at the overall compression curve, which essentially shows linear distortion, that is, an input to the sub at a certain frequency, say 30 Hz, does not increase output proportionately to that input. At 30 Hz, a 5 dB increase in input to the sub increases output by about 5 dB until the 110 dB input level where, with a 5 dB input increase, the output only increases by about 2 dB, the output is compressed by 3 dB. This 30 Hz output may seem to “fade away” relative to the 50 Hz output.

This compression raises a few issues. Looking at the Long Term Power Compression chart the effect of the peak in output shown by the 110 dB line may give the XV-15 a bit of a “one note” signature when it plays at its loudest. The relative output at each frequency will stay almost constant, not level response, the response curve will just maintain the same shape, until somewhere past 105 dB where increases in output will cause frequencies around 50 Hz to be emphasized. The lower frequencies especially will drop away. Output is already down at lower frequencies just due to the frequency response of the XV-15, compression will decrease it further.

The compression at lower frequencies may be due to port compression, and other effects which dissipate energy, but don’t contribute to intended acoustic output. Compression often brings associated discordant sounds from the port, driver, etc., as the sub is being stressed beyond optimum operating conditions.

Overall Output:

The line labeled 100 dB crosses the 10% distortion limit at 18 Hz where the acoustical output is 94 dB.

The line labeled 105 dB crosses the 10% distortion limit at 22 Hz where the acoustical output is 101 dB and rises to an acoustical output of about 105 dB at 50 Hz.

The line labeled 110 dB crosses the 10% distortion limit at 24 Hz where the acoustical output is 103 dB and rises to an acoustical output of 109 dB at 50 Hz and 110 dB at 72 Hz. This output is accompanied by relatively high levels of compression and rising distortion at higher frequencies with attendant problems.

Analysis:

Based on the above the XV-15 has relatively clean output from a bit below 100 dB at 20 Hz rising to 105 dB around 30 Hz. From 30 Hz up in frequency the sub seems clean at 103dB to 106 dB. That is around the 105 dB line on the Long Term Compression chart. The output represented by the 110 dB line has compression and higher frequency distortion issues. Based on the data available approximately 105 dB above 30 Hz is the highest demonstrated clean level for the sub. If data was available in 1dB increments above the 105 dB line it is possible that some additional clean output could be demonstrated.

Yep but you are not considering the fact that the XV15 realtively high thd is all 2nd order. 2nd order distortion can be relatively high and the system can still sound perfectly fine. smile.gif

Please #9 of Ricci's exerpt carefully.
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post #80 of 88 Old 03-16-2014, 06:23 PM
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Also there is no peak in the 110db sweep...look carefully it is the 115db sweep that resulted in the peak around 50hz. Ricci specifically notes in his brief review that the XV15 maintains good composure up to the 110db sweep so a 115db sweep was performed.
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Also there is no peak in the 110db sweep...look carefully it is the 115db sweep that resulted in the peak around 50hz. Ricci specifically notes in his brief review that the XV15 maintains good composure up to the 110db sweep so a 115db sweep was performed.

The problem is the XV15 are past a flat response by 110 dB, and also distortion is pretty bad at that point too. Will the XV play 110 dB- yes. Will it play it accurately- no.
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post #82 of 88 Old 03-16-2014, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The problem is the XV15 are past a flat response by 110 dB, and also distortion is pretty bad at that point too. Will the XV play 110 dB- yes. Will it play it accurately- no.

Is that audible at that level to the human ear, doubtful.




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post #83 of 88 Old 03-16-2014, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The problem is the XV15 are past a flat response by 110 dB, and also distortion is pretty bad at that point too. Will the XV play 110 dB- yes. Will it play it accurately- no.

Again the distortion is 2nd order not a big deal....and it is less then 10% from 24-80hz.

+/-3db from 22-100hz on the 110db long term power compression sweep...yep it is just a terrible sub for 799.00. rolleyes.gif
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Done deal, I just ordered dual FV15HP's. Yes I did bust the budget, but I believe I left nothing to chance and will not have any regrets. Thanks, you have been very helpful.

Aww man I've been busy working on a project and completely missed this thread. Well anyway, looks like you ordered some nice subs let us know what you think. Good choice. 

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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Also there is no peak in the 110db sweep...look carefully it is the 115db sweep that resulted in the peak around 50hz. Ricci specifically notes in his brief review that the XV15 maintains good composure up to the 110db sweep so a 115db sweep was performed.


Another issue is that these types of tests have no/little relationship to the source material that a subwoofer will actually reproduce. The CEA-2010 burst measurements have been specifically designed to simulate music an film source material. If you are worried about how a subwoofer is going to perform as you input loud test tones, by all means argue about the long duration sweeps. If, however, the point is how the subwoofer is going to sound reproducing music or film source material....you are looking at the wrong data. The correct data/chart is the CEA-2010 burst measurements. This explains why Power Sound Audio customers tend to be very happy with their products even though the same 1-2 skeptics look for anyway possible to post misleading information about us , our customers, and our company.

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post #86 of 88 Old 03-18-2014, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Another issue is that these types of tests have no/little relationship to the source material that a subwoofer will actually reproduce. The CEA-2010 burst measurements have been specifically designed to simulate music an film source material. If you are worried about how a subwoofer is going to perform as you input loud test tones, by all means argue about the long duration sweeps. If, however, the point is how the subwoofer is going to sound reproducing music or film source material....you are looking at the wrong data. The correct data/chart is the CEA-2010 burst measurements. This explains why Power Sound Audio customers tend to be very happy with their products even though the same 1-2 skeptics look for anyway possible to post misleading information about us , our customers, and our company.

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I agree Tom, but we have to consider who were are dealing with. Shady is the new breed of enthusiast who only builds a system to handle test tones. Nothing like kicking back in the chair, cracking open a beer, and firing up your favorite test tones disk. I specifically love the 15hz sine wave at reference, the dynamics are breath taking. I need to start a new thread "the master list of test tones" for all of the test tone junkies, but there would only be one lonely soul to frequent that thread. smile.gif
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I agree Tom, but we have to consider who were are dealing with. Shady is the new breed of enthusiast who only builds a system to handle test tones. Nothing like kicking back in the chair, cracking open a beer, and firing up your favorite test tones disk. I specifically love the 15hz sine wave at reference, the dynamics are breath taking. I need to start a new thread "the master list of test tones" for all of the test tone junkies, but there would only be one lonely soul to frequent that thread. smile.gif

Its a shame really because I beleive shady has a lot to offer. that said. once you make that cross over because you have an axe to grind you lose all credibility .....
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post #88 of 88 Old 03-18-2014, 05:21 PM
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I agree Tom, but we have to consider who were are dealing with. Shady is the new breed of enthusiast who only builds a system to handle test tones. Nothing like kicking back in the chair, cracking open a beer, and firing up your favorite test tones disk. I specifically love the 15hz sine wave at reference, the dynamics are breath taking. I need to start a new thread "the master list of test tones" for all of the test tone junkies, but there would only be one lonely soul to frequent that thread. smile.gif

Right now I am having a Guinness and two fingers of Jameson on the side celebrating a belated St Paddy's day. While imbibing, I am listening to test tones with my XV15's. Hey Shady, they sound awesome and compression free smile.gif




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