Dual Rythmik F15's or SVS PC12-Plus's? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 03-13-2014, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I've harassed the members of the owners' threads, read a few of the debate threads, looked at test data presented here, at data-bass, ht shack, and tried to correlate that with my own experience -- to figure out what would work best for me.

Dedicated, sealed, treated room 12' x 16' x 7.5'.
Triad Bronze LCR speakers capable of reaching reference level (if crossed over at 120hz) at the MLP (about 8.5' off the front wall). The MLP has room for two or three people in a row, and this is what I optimize for, though there is a second row on a riser.
False wall with AT screen -- there is about 16" of space behind that wall, and I could move it a couple inches if needed -- or "bump out" the front below the screen (which is which is at about 28 inches off the ground, to accommodate sub footprints.
Extensive modeling suggests two subs on the front wall, at 1/4 and 3/4 locations are going to do well for getting even bass across the MLP couch.
I will parametric EQ available in the pre-pro, but it will be a single sub channel and applied to both.

---

In the past I have owned a couple different HSU, a Velodyne DD, a REL, a JL Audio (113), and a Thiel SW1/SS2. My experience was that the JL Audio was no more articulate than the HSU, but did rumble even lower and look better. The REL was excellent for music but didn't rumble. The DD was my first, nearly 20 years ago, and is too long ago to recall well. The Thiel was by far the best -- perfect for music, excellent for movies, but I could not afford a second (list is $5k! used is $2k+ and very rarely available) so I sold the Thiel and am on the hunt.

Figuring a budget in the $2k range for two subs, and knowing that it has got to be articulate, I narrowed my choices a bit and think it's either Dual Rythmik F15's or SVS PC12-Plus's. Yes, I could get more rumble and thunder from other choices (PSA) and more precision with less rumble, but these seem like the Goldilocks choices in my range, in my room, with my tastes.

----

In simple terms, the Rythmik leans towards leaner output but more precision and the SVS leans a little the other direction, but I'm not sure how much overlap they have. For example, in sealed mode would the SVS be essentially like the Rythmik? or still a little less precise? and have more or less output? clearly the SVS with open ports would have more output at 20hz than the Rythmik, but would I be happy during those 20%-of-my-time critical music listening moments?

Yes, I could order both, and see, and I may end up doing that. But that's a couple hundred dollar investment due to shipping costs. If I can eliminate one choice, that would be ideal. At first I thought I could eliminate the Rythimk just from a re-sale perspective -- ie, an SVS sub on craigslist where I live would disappear in 24 hours. But Rythmik has gained a lot of brand recognition so I cannot use that trump card (I'll be stuck with a big loss in two years if I want to sell them and try something else) as a deciding factor, either.

Thoughts? What are the obvious factors I am missing?
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post #2 of 31 Old 03-13-2014, 06:03 PM
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That's a tough call, I own the PC12+ and tried it in sealed mode and it was quite nice with music, but I felt it lacked in when watching movies with a lot of LFE. So sealed was an improvement with music and a step back with movies.

One good thing about the PC models is how easy they are to place. You only need 17^2" of floor space, plus the tuning ability is nice as well.

Your room is pretty small. A pair of PC12+ in sealed mode would really rock it for movies and sound great with music. My room is a little bigger and I know a pair of them in sealed mode would be incredible and make up for what just one was lacking. There'd be quite a bit or room gain too.

So, I vote for a pair of PC12+ biggrin.gif

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post #3 of 31 Old 03-13-2014, 06:17 PM
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A bit a an apple vs banana comparison being that one is sealed and one is ported - not that you can't compare an apple and a banana. To my mind, plugging the ports on a ported sub does not make a sealed sub - it makes an aperiodic enclosure. If you want to use the sub in sealed mode, I think you are better off buying a sealed sub as the box will be built to the correct size for that mode of operation. In that size room I would go for the Rythmik and if you can swing it I'd grab the HP version in matt-black (appropriate for a dedicated room) to avoid buyers remorse.

Just my 2c
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post #4 of 31 Old 03-13-2014, 06:20 PM
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I think the PC12+ are pretty solid subs, but with your sub background and room size I would lean towards the Rythmik F15HP's...or even a pair of F25's if your feeling saucey. smile.gif
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post #5 of 31 Old 03-13-2014, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Great feedback guys.
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

That's a tough call, I own the PC12+ and tried it in sealed mode and it was quite nice with music, but I felt it lacked in when watching movies with a lot of LFE. So sealed was an improvement with music and a step back with movies.

One good thing about the PC models is how easy they are to place. You only need 17^2" of floor space, plus the tuning ability is nice as well.

Your room is pretty small. A pair of PC12+ in sealed mode would really rock it for movies and sound great with music. My room is a little bigger and I know a pair of them in sealed mode would be incredible and make up for what just one was lacking. There'd be quite a bit or room gain too.

So, I vote for a pair of PC12+ biggrin.gif

I'm sure these would be awesome. I guess even more output than I'd need!

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Originally Posted by Avgass View Post

A bit a an apple vs banana comparison being that one is sealed and one is ported - not that you can't compare an apple and a banana. To my mind, plugging the ports on a ported sub does not make a sealed sub - it makes an aperiodic enclosure. If you want to use the sub in sealed mode, I think you are better off buying a sealed sub as the box will be built to the correct size for that mode of operation. In that size room I would go for the Rythmik and if you can swing it I'd grab the HP version in matt-black (appropriate for a dedicated room) to avoid buyers remorse.

Just my 2c
Phil

That's fair. No free lunch. The SVS is flexible but the Rythmik specifically optimized for one approach.

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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I think the PC12+ are pretty solid subs, but with your sub background and room size I would lean towards the Rythmik F15HP's...or even a pair of F25's if your feeling saucey. smile.gif

What you say makes sense.

The HP because the headroom will be helpful even in my small space?
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post #6 of 31 Old 03-13-2014, 06:52 PM
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I have the F15 (not the HP version) and it rocks in my not sealed 1300 cubic feet room...A single F15HP should knock your socks off. Duals should blow you away
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post #7 of 31 Old 03-13-2014, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

I have the F15 (not the HP version) and it rocks in my not sealed 1300 cubic feet room...A single F15HP should knock your socks off. Duals should blow you away

Yeah, I'm not sure the 50% price increase has a clear payback in a space like mine. But maybe I am missing something.
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post #8 of 31 Old 03-13-2014, 08:15 PM
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I have two F12SE in a 2800 cf room and they are more than enough. I have my subwoofers volume at 12 o'clock and -6dB in the AVR (Marantz SR7008), so I have a plenty headroom to work with. Two F15HPs in a 1500 cf room is just overkill and insane eek.gif

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post #9 of 31 Old 03-13-2014, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post

I have two F12SE in a 2800 cf room and they are more than enough. I have my subwoofers volume at 12 o'clock and -6dB in the AVR (Marantz SR7008), so I have a plenty headroom to work with. Two F15HPs in a 1500 cf room is just overkill and insane eek.gif

You have almost convinced me that f12 is the way to go. Especially the paper cone version since I may be using a crossover of 100hz at least until I update my lcr eventually.
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post #10 of 31 Old 03-13-2014, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

You have almost convinced me that f12 is the way to go. Especially the paper cone version since I may be using a crossover of 100hz at least until I update my lcr eventually.

How loud do you listen? If you want a reference capable system from 16-80hz the F12 will not get you there.
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post #11 of 31 Old 03-13-2014, 10:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

How loud do you listen? If you want a reference capable system from 16-80hz the F12 will not get you there.

I would like a reference capable system, if for no other reason than headroom. I don't think I have ever watched a whole movie higher than about 5 db below reference (assuming Audyssey really set reference correctly in my setup in the past). But one might argue it's because my system wasn't capable of playing louder without compression, distortion, etc.

In a 1600 cubic foot sealed room, will two F12 get me there? If not, how far away am I?
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post #12 of 31 Old 03-13-2014, 11:05 PM
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No... according to the ULF thread you need 2 F15HP's to get a 4star reference capable sub system from 16hz on up in your 1600^3 room.

The F12's will be short a few DB.
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post #13 of 31 Old 03-13-2014, 11:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

No... according to the ULF thread you need 2 F15HP's to get a 4star reference capable sub system from 16hz on up in your 1600^3 room.

The F12's will be short a few DB.

I need to dig into that thread more. At some point the f12 becomes adequate, but it's not till above 20hz near as I can tell.

I guess I will have to balance ulf output versus good integration with the mains up at c 100hz in deciding which to get. The price difference is only 20% so that's a secondary concern.

And I just did the math. Actually the room is 1440^feet, so even smaller.
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post #14 of 31 Old 03-14-2014, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

I need to dig into that thread more. At some point the f12 becomes adequate, but it's not till above 20hz near as I can tell.

I guess I will have to balance ulf output versus good integration with the mains up at c 100hz in deciding which to get. The price difference is only 20% so that's a secondary concern.

And I just did the math. Actually the room is 1440^feet, so even smaller.

Still would come up short around the 16-20hz, but still would be a awesome setup none the less. smile.gif
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post #15 of 31 Old 03-14-2014, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. This sounds like the best compromise. (Funny to use that word with this plan.) Maybe "balanced choice" is what I mean.
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post #16 of 31 Old 03-14-2014, 08:11 AM
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^^ Get the F15 instead of the F12. More bass is never overkill. If you move to a bigger room later, you still will be covered. Buy it right the first time.
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post #17 of 31 Old 03-14-2014, 08:42 AM
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I know the price may be a little higher BUT i think dual FV15HP's and dual PSA XS-30's should be added to his list.

Shawn
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post #18 of 31 Old 03-14-2014, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

^^ Get the F15 instead of the F12. More bass is never overkill. If you move to a bigger room later, you still will be covered. Buy it right the first time.

In general, I agree, and the price difference is negligible.

But by Ryhtmik's own description, if I am going to crossover above 80hz, the 12's are better than the 15's, and if I am going to listen sometimes below reference, the paper cone (available on the 12's) is better than the aluminum cone (only kind available on the 15's).
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post #19 of 31 Old 03-14-2014, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

I know the price may be a little higher BUT i think dual FV15HP's and dual PSA XS-30's should be added to his list.

Why?

Regarding the FV15HP, I'd be more inclined to consider the sealed 15HP, as I prefer the stated response of the sealed Rythmik (nicer slope, less overhang at the extremes, more output and control in the midbass (30-80hz) band where information and content abounds throughout most music and movies, not just in the action scenes).

But I think in both cases, you are suggesting I'd prefer the higher output of these choices in my small sealed room, right?
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post #20 of 31 Old 03-14-2014, 11:29 AM
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Yeah I'm not saying that you should buy the subs I mentioned, I just think they are worth considering. So you know where I'm coming from I have 2 Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus subs in a 20' X 15' X 8' room with a 4' wide floor to ceiling opening to rest of house. I really like my subs but they are the bare minimum I'd want in that room. So I'm coming from the thought that duals of anything $1,500 each or less isn't overkill cuz it just gives you more head room and you won't have to work the subs as hard which will increase their longevity. Also I have never had a sealed sub of my own, and the only one i've ever worked with is the Onkyo THX sub. So I don't have the experience with good quality sealed subs. When I finish my bonus room above my garage into a dedicated sealed HT I may get sealed subs.

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post #21 of 31 Old 03-14-2014, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Fair enough. Because of those openings, you need to consider the full house as "the room" so you have a lot more space to fill that I do. biggrin.gif
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

In general, I agree, and the price difference is negligible.

But by Ryhtmik's own description, if I am going to crossover above 80hz, the 12's are better than the 15's, and if I am going to listen sometimes below reference, the paper cone (available on the 12's) is better than the aluminum cone (only kind available on the 15's).
Good to know. Didn't even know about that. Have you talked to Brian?
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post #23 of 31 Old 03-14-2014, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Not yet. Sent a note, but I should call.
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post #24 of 31 Old 03-14-2014, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

In general, I agree, and the price difference is negligible.

But by Ryhtmik's own description, if I am going to crossover above 80hz, the 12's are better than the 15's, and if I am going to listen sometimes below reference, the paper cone (available on the 12's) is better than the aluminum cone (only kind available on the 15's).

Not sure where you got that info but both the F12 and F15 can be crossed much higher using the LFE in...it is the line level that only allows 80-90hz crossover.
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post #25 of 31 Old 03-14-2014, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
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On the Rythmik site, there is a distinction between the woofer sizes of the mains, suggesting with smaller woofers on the mains one use the f12 sub, and with larger woofers on the mains, one can use the f15 sub.
Quote:
F12
Compact aluminum cone sealed subwoofer. Great output for its size. Ideal for combined HT/music systems. Recommended for speakers with 5” woofers or larger.

F15
Standard aluminum cone sealed subwoofer. Ideal for HT/music combo systems with main speakers of 6-1/2” or larger.

And the f12g is touted as particularly good for a 120hz crossover:
Quote:
F12G
Same size as F12, but with a paper cone. Great frequency response up to 120 Hhz. When used with smaller front speakers, a stereo pair is recommended.
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post #26 of 31 Old 03-15-2014, 01:00 AM
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All the Rythmiks are good to 120hz. If you were looking for a 150+hz cross then the woofer selection might be more of an issue. I think given your sub history you should go for one or two of the sealed 15s.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

I know the price may be a little higher BUT i think dual FV15HP's and dual PSA XS-30's should be added to his list.

Ok, I am listening. What would you choose and why? I am tired of this research and I am within days or HOURS of purchasing something in duals. Most likely it will be between the two above. If I go Rythmik, It will be one now and another 6 months later. I came into this forum thinking single and spending half of what is getting ready to happen. I was given good advice to think of the end result when making a decision and I thank you all for your input.

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post #28 of 31 Old 03-15-2014, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avgass View Post

All the Rythmiks are good to 120hz. If you were looking for a 150+hz cross then the woofer selection might be more of an issue. I think given your sub history you should go for one or two of the sealed 15s.

Well if I still get fine performance with a 120hz crossover, then the small price bump to the 15s (small is relative to the overall expenditure) maybe worthwhile, since it's about double the output.

Thanks!
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post #29 of 31 Old 03-17-2014, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini-Wheat View Post

Ok, I am listening. What would you choose and why? I am tired of this research and I am within days or HOURS of purchasing something in duals. Most likely it will be between the two above. If I go Rythmik, It will be one now and another 6 months later. I came into this forum thinking single and spending half of what is getting ready to happen. I was given good advice to think of the end result when making a decision and I thank you all for your input.

 



What size is your room??? Is it sealed or open to other areas of the house?

Shawn
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post #30 of 31 Old 03-17-2014, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini-Wheat View Post

Ok, I am listening. What would you choose and why? I am tired of this research and I am within days or HOURS of purchasing something in duals. Most likely it will be between the two above. If I go Rythmik, It will be one now and another 6 months later. I came into this forum thinking single and spending half of what is getting ready to happen. I was given good advice to think of the end result when making a decision and I thank you all for your input.

 



What size is your room??? Is it sealed or open to other areas of the house?

Flick, he already ordered dual FV15HP's...the thing is he created multiple threads and posted questions in half a dozen other threads to get to that point so you could of easily missed it. smile.gif
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