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post #1 of 99 Old 03-17-2014, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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So was about to pull the trigger on a SVS PB2000 when the tax man cometh.  I relocated to MI and will be charged tax for an SVS Sub.  So now the cost of my list of subs goes something like this:

 

PSA XV15:  799 + Free Shipping + no tax = 799.00

SVS PB2000:  799 + Free Shipping + 35ish Tax = 833

HSU VTF-3 MK4:  669.00 + 99 Shipping + no tax = 769.00

Outlaw LFM1 - EX:  649 = 89.85 SHipping + no tax = 738.85

 

So with this new knowledge...

 

What Sub is the best bang for the buck?  PSA XV15 due to size and 799 price?  Low cost Outlaw?  HSU for control and cost?

 

Thanks

 

Michael

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post #2 of 99 Old 03-17-2014, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinemafreak1 View Post

So was about to pull the trigger on a SVS PB2000 when the tax man cometh.  I relocated to MI and will be charged tax for an SVS Sub.  So now the cost of my list of subs goes something like this:

PSA XV15:  799 + Free Shipping + no tax = 799.00
SVS PB2000:  799 + Free Shipping + 35ish Tax = 833
HSU VTF-3 MK4:  669.00 + 99 Shipping + no tax = 769.00
Outlaw LFM1 - EX:  649 = 89.85 SHipping + no tax = 738.85

So with this new knowledge...

What Sub is the best bang for the buck?  PSA XV15 due to size and 799 price?  Low cost Outlaw?  HSU for control and cost?

Thanks

Michael

What's wrong with those prices? A PB-2000 here in Canada is $889 + $50 shipping + $46,95 taxes = $985,95

On top of that, the SB-13Ultra went from $1,599 to $1,749$ recently...

Count yourself lucky...

Fred

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post #3 of 99 Old 03-17-2014, 07:13 PM
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post #4 of 99 Old 03-17-2014, 07:49 PM
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For the output I would go with the XV15. It's just a little more than the Hsu and the Outlaw but I think you get a bit more output. 
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post #5 of 99 Old 03-17-2014, 07:58 PM
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oh no you didnt...I suspect ShadyJ will be in here soon. Run run...hide ya kids, hide ya wife. biggrin.gif
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post #6 of 99 Old 03-17-2014, 08:13 PM
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oh no you didnt...I suspect ShadyJ will be in here soon. Run run...hide ya kids, hide ya wife. biggrin.gif

LOL. that's funny. As I wrote my post I was literally wondering how long it would be before shady jumped all over it. The clock's ticking. :D

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post #7 of 99 Old 03-17-2014, 08:15 PM
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Actually Michigan has a 6% "use tax" you are required to pay on all non - taxed out of state purchases used in the state smile.gif

Now more to your question I would go with the SVS or the XV15. Warranty customer service and strong helpful community heavily prejudice my choice.

I would add LV12R from Rythmik as a possibility too.
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post #8 of 99 Old 03-17-2014, 08:25 PM
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I'm still a noob but after much reading and research I came down to an either/or between a PSA XV15 or an SVS PB-2000. I never seriously considered anything else around this price point.

 

My PB-2000 arrived today, and I'm enjoying it for sure. But then it's my first 'real' sub. What put me over the top was a combination of the 1 year upgrade policy + the existence of other subs in the lineup that pique my interest...most notably the PC12-Plus. I have a year to come up with the money and justification to make the upgrade. You can go dual with either and get the discount, although I believe PSA had a 6 month limit on the duals discount, I haven't seen a limit with SVS...and I'm sure at least a full year would be good to go.

 

I was tempted by the belief that the XV15 has an output hump around the 50hz area that is greater than the PB-2000 (some say the SVS is "over-limited"), but then I got the PB-2000 for $729 as an outlet special for some minor damage on one of the corners. :)

 

From everything I read I don't think you could be unhappy with the PB-2000 or the XV15.


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post #9 of 99 Old 03-17-2014, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Farley1 View Post

 

From everything I read I don't think you could be unhappy with the PB-2000 or the XV15.

 

This is true. Both should put a smile on your face similar to this one: :D 

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post #10 of 99 Old 03-17-2014, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farley1 View Post

I'm still a noob but after much reading and research I came down to an either/or between a PSA XV15 or an SVS PB-2000. I never seriously considered anything else around this price point.

My PB-2000 arrived today, and I'm enjoying it for sure. But then it's my first 'real' sub. What put me over the top was a combination of the 1 year upgrade policy + the existence of other subs in the lineup that pique my interest...most notably the PC12-Plus. I have a year to come up with the money and justification to make the upgrade. You can go dual with either and get the discount, although I believe PSA had a 6 month limit on the duals discount, I haven't seen a limit with SVS...and I'm sure at least a full year would be good to go.

I was tempted by the belief that the XV15 has an output hump around the 50hz area that is greater than the PB-2000 (some say the SVS is "over-limited", but then I got the PB-2000 for $729 as an outlet special for some minor damage on one of the corners. smile.gif

From everything I read I don't think you could be unhappy with the PB-2000 or the XV15.

I agree. remember the Output hump @ 50hz is only present in the 115db max burst sweep. the sub will play relatively flat @ 110db. +/-3db from 22-100hz. I would think they are pretty even performers comparing long term power and compression. The XV15 will only have the advantage for short burst output of 116db in the 40-63hz range.
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post #11 of 99 Old 03-17-2014, 10:23 PM
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XV15 would be my choice, then save up for a second one smile.gif
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post #12 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 12:11 AM
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The new PB2000 looks like it could be pretty good. If it has the same distortion profile of the NSD but with increased output, than you are looking at a formidable sub. If it doesn't carry that distortion profile, I would go with the VTF3 mk4. It will be tuned the deepest, so you will get the most low bass, and it has a lot of output and a very linear response. It also offers a lot of control of the bass sound character. Next to that, the Outlaw, which is essentially a cross between a VTF3 mk3 and mk2, ie older versions of the VTF3s. I would go for a VTF3 over the Outlaw, it's worth the extra $30 just for the larger ports alone, without even considering the other improvements. I wouldn't bother with the XV15, it may be using a larger driver but it is a lower quality driver and that is reflected in the existing third party measurements. I get a lot of flak everytime I point this out, but facts are facts, and they can be seen here.

If you can tolerate giving up a bit of bass from the upper teens to the low 30 frequency range, look at the Reaction BPS 215. Reaction is a new company, but the specs on that thing look very promising, and it could be a killer sub for the money. Also very close to that same price is dual Reaction BPS 212 Turbos, $900 shipped. That is a lot of woofer for the price, think about that, four 12"s. Four times the surface area of the other 12" subs and three times the surface area of the 15". Those things barely have to move a hair to equal the output of the other subs, which will keep distortion down, and two subs will do a lot more to get you a flatter response at your listening position and a more even bass sound throughout your entire room. They would also use a lot less power to equal the same SPL of the other subs. I love the Hsu subs, the SVS looks great, and the Outlaw is a very good deal for the money, but if I were on the sub market today, I would be taking a hard look at those Reaction subs, the $/performance ratio may well be unmatched.
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post #13 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The new PB2000 looks like it could be pretty good. If it has the same distortion profile of the NSD but with increased output, than you are looking at a formidable sub. If it doesn't carry that distortion profile, I would go with the VTF3 mk4. It will be tuned the deepest, so you will get the most low bass, and it has a lot of output and a very linear response. It also offers a lot of control of the bass sound character. Next to that, the Outlaw, which is essentially a cross between a VTF3 mk3 and mk2, ie older versions of the VTF3s. I would go for a VTF3 over the Outlaw, it's worth the extra $30 just for the larger ports alone, without even considering the other improvements. I wouldn't bother with the XV15, it may be using a larger driver but it is a lower quality driver and that is reflected in the existing third party measurements. I get a lot of flak everytime I point this out, but facts are facts, and they can be seen here.

If you can tolerate giving up a bit of bass from the upper teens to the low 30 frequency range, look at the Reaction BPS 215. Reaction is a new company, but the specs on that thing look very promising, and it could be a killer sub for the money. Also very close to that same price is dual Reaction BPS 212 Turbos, $900 shipped. That is a lot of woofer for the price, think about that, four 12"s. Four times the surface area of the other 12" subs and three times the surface area of the 15". Those things barely have to move a hair to equal the output of the other subs, which will keep distortion down, and two subs will do a lot more to get you a flatter response at your listening position and a more even bass sound throughout your entire room. They would also use a lot less power to equal the same SPL of the other subs. I love the Hsu subs, the SVS looks great, and the Outlaw is a very good deal for the money, but if I were on the sub market today, I would be taking a hard look at those Reaction subs, the $/performance ratio may well be unmatched.


You get flak because you are wrong...the XV15 handles itself just fine compared to the subs in its price class. Definitelty has better compression characterisitcs and thd compared to the Outlaw. How can you routinely recomend a sub that has not been tested, but yet you live and breath 3rd party measurements? I doubt the Reaction subs are going to be anythng magical. The main ID companies pretty much have the price vs performance ratio as good as it will get without sacrificing something.
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post #14 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 08:23 AM
 
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What's wrong with those prices? A PB-2000 here in Canada is $889 + $50 shipping + $46,95 taxes = $985,95

On top of that, the SB-13Ultra went from $1,599 to $1,749$ recently...

Count yourself lucky...

Fred

Not sure where you are in Canada, but in Ontario, we have 13% sales tax on everything, including cars and houses. So the tax on a PB-2000 is $115 eek.gif
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post #15 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 08:25 AM
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He's in Rimouski, which is in Quebec (east of Quebec City).
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post #16 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by LowerFE View Post

Not sure where you are in Canada, but in Ontario, we have 13% sales tax on everything, including cars and houses. So the tax on a PB-2000 is $115 eek.gif

Is this a merged tax of PST and GST ? Here in Quebec it's 15%. But since Sonicboom doesn't have physical store in Quebec (where you can come in and buy stuff...) we only pay the GST to them.

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He's in Rimouski, which is in Quebec (east of Quebec City).

Correct! wink.gif

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post #17 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 09:09 AM
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It always amazes me how much tax people in other countries choose to pay.


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post #18 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 09:51 AM
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You get flak because you are wrong...the XV15 handles itself just fine compared to the subs in its price class. Definitelty has better compression characterisitcs and thd compared to the Outlaw.

Wrong. With respect to distortion, the LFM-1 EX merits a 113 dB sweep, which was not something that was done with the XV15. If you are going to throw that '3rd order HD is worse' canard at me, remember that would go down considerably if run at a 110 dB sweep, which was the best the XV15 could do. But more than that, take a look at the distortion sweep chart with respect to the compression sweeps for the LFM-1 EX; by the time the EX runs into heavy distortion, its output is down by 12 dB from its higher limits, a fourth as loud as the rest of its basic response. The XV15, on the other hand, is coughing up a ton of distortion well within its output range. In other words, the distortion from the Outlaw wouldn't be nearly as loud or prevalent- in either of its modes. As for compression alone, if you think the XV15 has better compression characteristics than the Outlaw, you don't understand compression. Compression is how severely the power response is deformed from increased stress. The XV15's response can be pushed way past its basic response, much more so than most other subs measured at data-bass, let alone the LFM-1 EX. I don't understand how you can make that argument. Hint: in this case bigger numbers are not better, they are worse.

The bottom line is the Outlaw, an old workhorse which has been around for years, is outperforming a much newer and more expensive sub with a larger driver and beefier amp. How can this be? No doubt the XV15 has much more raw displacement ability than the Outlaw, but it's cone just isn't very well controlled. PSA tries to hit performance targets with cheap, brute force, and they try to smooth the rough edges over with digital processing. But because of the shortcuts PSA took to hit their price point, those rough edges can only be smoothed over so much. The Power X driver is just not a great 15". No shorting rings, too much voice coil for too shallow of a magnet, high Le; like a cheap car sub. A great sub for people who like loud noises but not so much for accurate playback.
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post #19 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 09:57 AM
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For the most part, all the listed sub will perform the same in your home. The slight difference will not be a factor, so get the one that you want.

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post #20 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

Actually Michigan has a 6% "use tax" you are required to pay on all non - taxed out of state purchases used in the state smile.gif



Now more to your question I would go with the SVS or the XV15. Warranty customer service and strong helpful community heavily prejudice my choice.



I would add LV12R from Rythmik as a possibility too.

 



I noticed that when I did state taxes when I moved. Did not really purchase anything in the short time here in 2013. That sucks. I guess I coudl forget I bought the sub...hehehehe.
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post #21 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 10:23 AM
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Here is a comparison of the data done by Bossobass between the PSA and the Outlaw and some good discussion in the thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475924/svs-vs-hsu/60#post_23408518
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post #22 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 10:33 AM
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For the most part, all the listed sub will perform the same in your home. The slight difference will not be a factor, so get the one that you want.

I agree. I imagine in a blind test between these subs it would be a toss up without the subjects being able to properly identify the subs. I also imagine peoples favorite would be different from person to person.

The highest clean sweep completed by the xv 15 is 105 dB at 50 hz. At 110 dB it is compressed by 5 dB from 20 hz to just below 16 hz. 5 dB is a noticable difference.
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post #23 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 10:37 AM
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Here is a comparison of the data done by Bossobass between the PSA and the Outlaw and some good discussion in the thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475924/svs-vs-hsu/60#post_23408518

That is good info but it is lopsided because Bosso specifically states "HE" is only comparing 2 port mode because anybody that is looking for sub 20hz output with these subs is LOL...that is a opinion not fact.

The Outlaw in 1 port to match the XV15 extension results in much more thd and it breaks 10% up in 30's, also compression is far worse. Almost every sweep starting at 95db results in some compression.

In 2 port when comparing the long term pwer compression and thd they are very close, but the XV15 still has slightly less compression.

So when you compare the Outlaw in output, compression, and THD in both 1 & 2 port vs the XV15 it is pretty clear.

I still think the Outlaw is a excellent sub at its price point. I would like to see some measurents of the VTF-3 MK4, I am betting the larger ports will help with compression in the deep bass.
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post #24 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

That is good info but it is lopsided because Bosso specifically states "HE" is only comparing 2 port mode because anybody that is looking for sub 20hz output with these subs is LOL...that is a opinion not fact.

The Outlaw in 1 port to match the XV15 extension results in much more thd and it breaks 10% up in 30's, also compression is far worse. Almost every sweep starting at 95db results in some compression.

In 2 port when comparing the long term pwer compression and thd they are very close, but the XV15 still has slightly less compression.

So when you compare the Outlaw in output, compression, and THD in both 1 & 2 port vs the XV15 it is pretty clear.

I still think the Outlaw is a excellent sub at its price point. I would like to see some measurents of the VTF-3 MK4, I am betting the larger ports will help with compression in the deep bass.

And I agree with his opinion. When you get more than one the lower tune is more desirable IMO.

I value his opinion more than anyone else in this thread.

http://www.bossobass.com/Bossobass.com/Home.html
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post #25 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

That is good info but it is lopsided because Bosso specifically states "HE" is only comparing 2 port mode because anybody that is looking for sub 20hz output with these subs is LOL...that is a opinion not fact.

The Outlaw in 1 port to match the XV15 extension results in much more thd and it breaks 10% up in 30's, also compression is far worse. Almost every sweep starting at 95db results in some compression.

In 2 port when comparing the long term pwer compression and thd they are very close, but the XV15 still has slightly less compression.

So when you compare the Outlaw in output, compression, and THD in both 1 & 2 port vs the XV15 it is pretty clear.

OK, I get it now, you are comparing sweeps at lower output levels. I don't really agree that puts the XV15 on top, as that view makes the Outlaw port limited rather than driver limited. It would be better to have the port as a constraint rather than the driver. Thinking about it now, it does make me want to mod my Outlaws though, lol.
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post #26 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 10:58 AM
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It always amazes me how much tax people in other countries choose to pay.

I wish it was a choice! Even regular price down in the States seems like a steal compared to Canada.
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post #27 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 11:19 AM
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Did you move to Michigan? If so,of course your gonna pay tax,that whole state is broke.
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post #28 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 11:38 AM
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So how is it that 12" sub is going to be equal to a 15" sub with the same amp power? Otherwise,why use a 15" driver?
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post #29 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

OK, I get it now, you are comparing sweeps at lower output levels. I don't really agree that puts the XV15 on top, as that view makes the Outlaw port limited rather than driver limited. It would be better to have the port as a constraint rather than the driver. Thinking about it now, it does make me want to mod my Outlaws though, lol.

Shady, honest question (I'm not trying to ruffle feathers)...the elevated distortion of PSA's subs that you refer to, in your opinion are they audible/discernable? Also have you personally heard any PSA subs? I'm seriously considering either dual XS-15s or VS-15s and I’m struggling with the contrast between posts similar to yours (PSA being of lessor audio quality) with testimonials of elated PSA customers enjoying their subs. I would be upgrading from an Epik Empire so I believe a dual sub set up will provide for a better overall experience.

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post #30 of 99 Old 03-18-2014, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post

Shady, honest question (I'm not trying to ruffle feathers)...the elevated distortion of PSA's subs that you refer to, in your opinion are they audible/discernable? Also have you personally heard any PSA subs? I'm seriously considering either dual XS-15s or VS-15s and I’m struggling with the contrast between posts similar to yours (PSA being of lessor audio quality) with testimonials of elated PSA customers enjoying their subs. I would be upgrading from an Epik Empire so I believe a dual sub set up will provide for a better overall experience.

The distortion would be audible certainly, but, with regular material like movie sound effects or game sound effects, you might not know you are hearing it unless you knew what to listen for or heard a clean sound in contrast of it. In pure tones you would know it with no problem, it would be as clear as day. To put it another way, at the frequencies that the XV15 really suffer, the low 20s and teens, even 10% THD would be noticeable, and the XV15 can be driven to as much as 40% THD above its tuning point where there is plenty of output available. You can see that here under the tab 'multi-series charts'. In my opinion you, won't really be upgrading. The PSA customers are elated because their subs get loud, but lots of distortion always sound louder.

I would save up for something like VTF15hs or possibly Reaction BPS 215s. Maybe dual SVS PC12 Pluses if you can make that stretch in budget. If you are willing to do a bit of DIY, you could achieve a much better system than these for much less $. For the price of dual XV15s, you could get four of these Dayton HF drivers, two of these Behringer EPs to power them all, and have enough money left over for cabinet material, damping, feet, terminals, mounting material, and veneer/finish or paint. That system would be far, far more higher performing.
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