Denon AVR-3313 / Velodyne SPL-1000 Ultra - problems! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 12 Old 03-26-2014, 03:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all,

Hope that any of you professionals on the forum can help me with an issue I have been fighting with for more than a year now.

Problem is that i can not get not get the subwoofer to deliver at all after calibration. Regardless of place in the room, regardless of the settings in the receiver, regardless of the volume of the subwoofer it virtually lacks all punch when listening to music in both stereo and 5.1 (movies works ok though, at least for fairly deep bass) . I have tried all possible settings, SD pillows on the subwoofer , Super Pikes on the speakers , small vs. large in the receiver, the LFE + main / LFE , Audyssey turned on / off , Dynamic EQ on / off , phase settings, etc etc. (as you can imagine I have had some time to experiment with this but unfortunately I have not found any solution).

The other day something strange happened when I once more decided to change the position of the subwoofer to the room's last option. I did not reset the receiver nor the subwoofers internal eq (Velodyne SPL -1000 Ultra) . Even though the calibration had been done (both Audyssey and the subwoofer internal eq) in a different part of the room, bass was suddently there at the new position. I listen to some stereo tracks and viewed some old music videos on VH1, midbass, punch in the bassdrums and everything that previously had lacking , was present. The sound stage were no longer flat and I could feel the low end and all in all quite an improvement in sound stage (the sound were not 100 % due to the fact that the subwoofer were actually calibrated for another part of the room, however better than before). Obviously i though that I had finally found the optimal location for subwoofer placement in the room and therefore calibrated once again - first subwoofer (set it to direct which in order for the receiver to handle bass management) and then Audyssey 8 positions (which I understand is the correct order - first subwoofer, then Audyssey) with a tripod . After the calibration had finished I manually changed all speakers set to small, crossover at 80 hz , leaved the subwoofer volume at 20 (set to -4 dB in the receiver, calibrated to 1/4 of the total volume, otherwise it hits the lowest value of -12 db). Afterwards I tried some bass heavy music and to my dissapointment I was back at square one, no punch, just flat and dull. It doesn't help to increase the trim levels in the receiver / subwoofer volume via the remote control, it just ends up in bad sound with dist. I own quite many music blurays which has received good reviews , especially for low end. They sound completely worthless in my setup, the subwoofer does not integrate at all, even when the DTS-HD tracks should be really good.

Since I have now finally heard that the system can actually deliver (obviously nothing wrong with the subwoofer), however calibrated for a different part of the room, it feels like either Audyssey and / or Veldones calibration messes it all up. Are there anyone who have experienced similar problems and managed to find a solution? I can not think of anything else to try when he only decent option seems to be to calibrate the subwoofer in one place and then move to antoher, however it does not feel like a completely optimal solution and certainly not the best. At one time I borrowed a Denon AVR- X4000 (with XT32) without better results, the receiver is probably not the problem. Have also tried with an Anti-Mode 8033 Cinema, result is the same.

I have the following setup:
Receiver - Denon AVR- 3313
Fronts : B&W CM8
Center: B&W CMC
Surround: B&W M1
Subwoofer: Velodyne SPL-1000 Ultra

I really hope that somebody knows how to handle this, quite annoying situation. My previous system was worth probably 20 % of my new one and actually delivered a more complete soundstage, the subwoofer was in the same room so it's hard to think that the room is the issue. But who knows.....

Thanks in advance for all help that I can get!

/Philip
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post #2 of 12 Old 03-26-2014, 06:12 AM
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It will be difficult to troubleshoot your problem without a measurement tool like REW or OmniMic. Playing frequency sweeps and measuring the frequency response at your listening position can allow you to see where the problem is.

Example 5 Hz - 20 KHz (smoothed):


Looking at a full range FR can show you the level of your LFE relative to your mains. The example above is running about 8 dB hot below 80 Hz which provides a satisfying low end. A low end that's flat relative to the mains, which is how Audyssey sets it, is likely to sound unimpressive. To achieve a house curve similar to the one above, just raise the sub channel gain in your AVR after you run Audyssey. You should also ensure that your mains are configured as "Small" and the crossovers are set to 80 Hz, assuming that your mains play that low.

Example 5 Hz - 100 Hz (unsmoothed):


An unsmoothed chart of the frequency range that your sub covers will reveal problem areas. If your sub simply rolls off below 25 Hz, for example, you may need to look at a sub upgrade. If the low end is good but there are one or more nulls at your LP, relocating your sub or your LP may be necessary. Measuring after every sub or LP relocation will show at a glance if you've succeeded. (Disable Audyssey when measuring after a move. The correction applied to the previous location won't be right in the new one.)

Good luck!
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post #3 of 12 Old 03-26-2014, 11:20 AM
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Tsk tsk Philip...still no measurements of your room?? wink.gif

EDIT: Physical measurements I mean (dimensions).

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post #4 of 12 Old 03-26-2014, 11:24 AM
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Just thought of something Philip - do you run Audyssey first or the sub's calibration? You will want to run Audyssey last if you haven't been.

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post #5 of 12 Old 03-26-2014, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

It will be difficult to troubleshoot your problem without a measurement tool like REW or OmniMic. Playing frequency sweeps and measuring the frequency response at your listening position can allow you to see where the problem is.

Example 5 Hz - 20 KHz (smoothed):


Looking at a full range FR can show you the level of your LFE relative to your mains. The example above is running about 8 dB hot below 80 Hz which provides a satisfying low end. A low end that's flat relative to the mains, which is how Audyssey sets it, is likely to sound unimpressive. To achieve a house curve similar to the one above, just raise the sub channel gain in your AVR after you run Audyssey. You should also ensure that your mains are configured as "Small" and the crossovers are set to 80 Hz, assuming that your mains play that low.

Example 5 Hz - 100 Hz (unsmoothed):


An unsmoothed chart of the frequency range that your sub covers will reveal problem areas. If your sub simply rolls off below 25 Hz, for example, you may need to look at a sub upgrade. If the low end is good but there are one or more nulls at your LP, relocating your sub or your LP may be necessary. Measuring after every sub or LP relocation will show at a glance if you've succeeded. (Disable Audyssey when measuring after a move. The correction applied to the previous location won't be right in the new one.)

Good luck!

Thans Henrich, much appreacited! I will try to get hold of REW and take measurments. Is it user friendly?
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post #6 of 12 Old 03-26-2014, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Tsk tsk Philip...still no measurements of your room?? wink.gif

EDIT: Physical measurements I mean (dimensions).

Hehe no, unfortunately no measurments yet :/
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post #7 of 12 Old 03-26-2014, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Just thought of something Philip - do you run Audyssey first or the sub's calibration? You will want to run Audyssey last if you haven't been.

I have read that the sub should be calibrated prior to Audyssey, I think that Chris at Audyssey has written some posts on this matter. So thats they way that I've been doing it every time smile.gif
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post #8 of 12 Old 03-26-2014, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipK View Post

Thans Henrich, much appreacited! I will try to get hold of REW and take measurments. Is it user friendly?

I haven't tried REW. I've read that it has a little steeper learning curve than OmniMic. The benefit is that the software is free. hometheatershack has tutorials.
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post #9 of 12 Old 03-26-2014, 02:45 PM
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Here's a link to the REW guide and the (very very long) thread:

Guide:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs/270#post_22823228

Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs

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post #10 of 12 Old 03-26-2014, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipK View Post

Hehe no, unfortunately no measurments yet :/

You don't own a tape measure or what?? wink.gif

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post #11 of 12 Old 03-27-2014, 01:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

You don't own a tape measure or what?? wink.gif

Hehe sorry, I though that you meant Aydyssey measurements (I missed the word psysical in your post). I can absolutely take measurement, but what are the purpose of that? Do you mean from wall to wall x 2?
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post #12 of 12 Old 03-27-2014, 08:34 AM
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You need to know the entire cubic footage of the open space your subwoofer can "see". This will tell you if you're sub is adequate for the space you have to pressurize.

So, yes - you will need to measure the dimensions of your living room (length/width/height) and any attached room that has an opening that can't be (or isn't typically) closed while listening.

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