Setting crossover for Definitive procinema 600 subwoofer - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 03-28-2014, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I have Definitive Procinema 600 speaker system. I set up the subwoofer with their option 1b, where I use both speakers wires in ans LFE in, and set the low pass filter at 85 Hz. Question is, what frequency crossover to set in the receiver? I have Yamaha RX-a730, where the speaker caliberation automatically sets it at 120 Hz. Can some expert here explain how this works? Will receiver send filter frequency above 120 Hz for center and surround speakers, and the subwoofer will further filter 85 Hz and below for sub itself, but pass 85 and above frequncy to its front speakrs out. Thus my back surround and center will only produce frequency above 120 Hz but front will produce above 85, and sub below 85.

I am a complete audio noob, so need help to set this up right.

One other question is Yamaha is rated at 90 watts per channel, but definitive procinma speakers are rated at 150 watts. Is there any danger of clipping and damage if I play receiver too loud? In DTS video, the volume knob is at 0 to 1.5 db, and I am afraid of damage.

Thanks.
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post #2 of 47 Old 03-28-2014, 11:03 PM
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Set the subwoofer crossover all the way up to the very highest and let the receiver completely handle the subwoofer crossover. If the receiver is saying 120hz, then you should let it do that. Your receiver is measuring the actual response of the sub and speakers in the room, and generally the crossover it recommends will be the lowest that is actually working well in your room, even though the sub manual might recommend something different.

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post #3 of 47 Old 03-28-2014, 11:03 PM
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And yes. There is a danger of clipping the amp. Just don't run it so loud that the sound is starting to distort.

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post #4 of 47 Old 03-28-2014, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Since I have both front speakers and subwoofer out from receiver to sub, the sub manual specifically said to put the lowpass filter at 12 o clock i.e. 85 Hz. There is a second option that said to keep the lowpass filter turned all the way up to 150 Hz, which does not use speakers cable, just the sub out.

Based on your reply, should I just disconnect the speakers cable to sub, and connect the speakers direct to receiver? ( The manual prefers the speakers through sub and 85 Hz lowpass. Here is what manual says: ( I use variation of optional hookup with setting as small speaker, the manual says nothing about receiver crossover, hence this question)

Method 1
1. First, wire the + (red) terminal of the left channel speaker wire output of your receiver
or amplifier to the + (red) terminal of the left channel speaker wire
(high level) input of your ProSub.
2. Next, wire the – (black) terminal of the left channel speaker wire output of your
receiver or amplifier to the – (black) terminal of the left channel speaker wire
(high level) input of the ProSub.
3. Repeat Steps 1 and 2 for the right channel.
4. Wire the + (red) terminal of the left ProMonitor 600 to the left channel + (red)
speaker wire (high level) out on the back of the ProSub.
5. Wire the – (black) terminal of the left ProMonitor 600 to the left channel – (black)
speaker wire (high level) out on the back of the ProSub.
6. Repeat steps 4 & 5 for the right ProMonitor 600.
7. Set the low frequency filter control on the back of the subwoofer to approximately
10 – 12 o’clock. Please note that the exact frequency will depend on many factors
including specific positions of the speakers in the room, so you might experiment
with a slightly higher or lower setting to achieve ideal blending between the sub
and the satellites for your particular set-up. Listen to a wide variety of music to
determine the correct setting for this in your system.
8. Set the subwoofer level control to approximately 12 o’clock. Please note that the
exact level depends on many factors including your room size, positions of the
speakers, etc. as well as your personal listening taste, so you might experiment
with the subwoofer level while listening to a wide variety of music until you
achieve the ideal setting for your system.
9. Wire your center channel to the center channel out on your receiver (or center
channel amplifier) and your left and right rear surround speakers to the rear
channel outputs on your receiver or rear channel amplifier (taking care that all
speakers are in phase, i.e. + (red) to + (red) and – (black) to – (black).
10. Set the bass management system of your receiver or decoder for “Large Left and
Right Main Speakers,” “Small Center” and “Small Rear Surround Speakers” and
“No Subwoofer.” All the bass information including the .1 channel LFE signal
will be directed to the main left and right channels and into the subwoofer giving
you all the benefits of Dolby Digital.

Option for Method 1 Hook-Up
An option on this hook-up (if your decoder will allow you to select “Large Left and
Right Main Speakers” and a “Subwoofer”), in addition to the hook-up as described
above, is to use an RCA-to-RCA low level cable to connect the LFE/sub-out on your
receiver to the low-level LFE/sub-in (the lower RCA input) on a ProSub. Tell your
bass management system that you have “Large Left and Right Main Speakers” and a
“Subwoofer” and “Small Center” and “Small Surrounds.” You will then be able to
raise the LFE .1 channel level being fed to the subwoofer by either using the LFE/sub
remote level adjustment on your decoder (if it has one) or the LFE .1 channel level
control on your Dolby Digital channel balancing procedure. This set-up has the advantage
of allowing you to set the low frequency level on the ProSub for smooth balance
with music while also allowing you to “juice up the bass” for movies with the controls
on your decoder. It should also sound somewhat better.

Variation on the Method 1 Optional Hook-up
One variation on the optional hook-up is to hook up and adjust the system as
described under “Optional Hook-Up” except select “Small Left and Right Main
Speakers” and a “Subwoofer” on the bass management system (along with “Small
Center” and “Small Rear Surrounds”). The advantage of this over the Optional Hook-
Up will be somewhat greater dynamic range (i.e., you can play the system louder).
However, depending on the specific characteristics of the crossovers designed into
your bass management system, the transition and blending between the satellites and
subwoofer may not be quite as smooth and continuous as the Optional Hook-Up, or
with the basic hook-up detailed above in Steps 1 – 10. However, if you wish to play the
system louder, you can experiment with this variation. In addition, this variation is also
one which can be used if your decoder bass management system does not allow a
“Large Left and Right Main Speakers” and “Subwoofer” setting.
We encourage you to experiment with the various settings on your subwoofer,
settings on your decoder, and hook-up options as described until you find the best
combination for you.
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post #5 of 47 Old 03-28-2014, 11:42 PM
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Right. You should use the subwoofer pre-out on your receiver and run it to the LFE input on your subwoofer, then let the receiver handle the bass management like I said above. Your speakers should be hooked to your receiver. This is the optimal method.

After you hook it up that way, you should rerun YPAO with your microphone.
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post #6 of 47 Old 03-28-2014, 11:50 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, I will try that. The reason I tried other way, was what the manual recommended, and what some of the reviews said, here is one from Cnet: http://www.cnet.com/products/definitive-technology-procinema-600/
Anyway, to finish my optional set up to compare with the tradional method you mention, is there some way to adjust crossover in receiver?

An odd wiring procedure--using the subwoofer's inputs and outputs--is required to get the optimal sound from the system.

You can hook up the ProCinema the usual way and run all the satellites as "Small" speakers and let your AV receiver handle bass management, but Definitive recommends an alternate hookup method to maximize sound quality. Basically, you run the front left and right speaker cables to the corresponding inputs on the subwoofer, and then run a second pair of cables to the actual speakers. Indeed, it does sound a bit better--producing a better blend between the satellite speakers and the subwoofer--but it was somewhat annoying to have to deal with those extra cables.
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post #7 of 47 Old 03-29-2014, 09:31 AM
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Then try it both ways and see which you like better. Most of us would use the receiver to manage the crossover, but that doesn't mean you might not like it better the other way.
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post #8 of 47 Old 03-29-2014, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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That brings back my original question. What bass crossover frequency to set in my receiver?
I did check sub manual. Hi pass filter in sub is 100 Hz. Lo pass at 95 Hz. Should receiver be at 100 Hz crossover?
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post #9 of 47 Old 03-29-2014, 12:37 PM
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If you are using the LFE plug on the sub connected to the receiver, reread this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Set the subwoofer crossover all the way up to the very highest and let the receiver completely handle the subwoofer crossover. If the receiver is saying 120hz, then you should let it do that. Your receiver is measuring the actual response of the sub and speakers in the room, and generally the crossover it recommends will be the lowest that is actually working well in your room, even though the sub manual might recommend something different.
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post #10 of 47 Old 03-29-2014, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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That makes sense now. I will leave it at 120. Thanks for helping and explaining. This is solved.
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post #11 of 47 Old 03-29-2014, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhaveri View Post

Definitive recommends an alternate hookup method to maximize sound quality. Basically, you run the front left and right speaker cables to the corresponding inputs on the subwoofer, and then run a second pair of cables to the actual speakers.
When you do that you lose the LFE content, and you only have basic 1st order filtering of the content to the mains. That lets a lot more low frequencies into the mains than the higher order filter of the AVR crossover. If you like that you can accomplish the same thing by using the AVR crossover, setting it to a lower frequency, and that way you don't lose the LFE content. As for what Audyssey recommends, trust, but verify. The crossover should be set as low as the mains will comfortably reach. I'd start with 80Hz, and if the mains seem to struggle going that low I'd try raising it in 10Hz increments until they don't. Running the crossover too high introduces directional content into the subs. If you must run the sub higher than 80Hz an can directionally locate it turn the sub amp low pass filter frequency down until you can't locate it, but no lower than the AVR crossover frequency.
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post #12 of 47 Old 03-29-2014, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

When you do that you lose the LFE content, and you only have basic 1st order filtering of the content to the mains. That lets a lot more low frequencies into the mains than the higher order filter of the AVR crossover. If you like that you can accomplish the same thing by using the AVR crossover, setting it to a lower frequency, and that way you don't lose the LFE content. As for what Audyssey recommends, trust, but verify. The crossover should be set as low as the mains will comfortably reach. I'd start with 80Hz, and if the mains seem to struggle going that low I'd try raising it in 10Hz increments until they don't. Running the crossover too high introduces directional content into the subs. If you must run the sub higher than 80Hz an can directionally locate it turn the sub amp low pass filter frequency down until you can't locate it, but no lower than the AVR crossover frequency.

Bill: When I use the spekers cables through sub, I also have LFE through sub. I want to try your recommendations. Please let me know if this is correct. I should leave the LFE cable in sub from receive, but take speakers cables out, running them directly from Yamaha to spekers, bypassing sub. Then I should use Yamha's cross over frequency low, for me 10Hz above main means 80 Hz, and keep on increasing till main can handle low freq. By the way, since the sub now only has LFE, should low bypass in sub turned all the way up to 150 Hz?
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post #13 of 47 Old 03-29-2014, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhaveri View Post

Bill: When I use the spekers cables through sub, I also have LFE through sub.
Running both the LFE and the speaker level inputs to the sub is a mess. That means the only low-passing of the non-LFE signal to the sub is that afforded by the sub amp filter.
You should only use the speaker level inputs to the sub when there's no other choice, ie., when you have an old 2.0 receiver. Why Def tech says so I can't imagine, maybe that comes from the same guy who writes their frequency response specs. rolleyes.gif
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post #14 of 47 Old 03-29-2014, 02:31 PM
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The ProCinema 600 speakers have 3 1/4" mids. They don't have much output below 140 Hz:

SoundAndVision ProCinema 600 measurements

I wouldn't recommend using a crossover lower than 120 Hz, and 140 Hz might be better given the specs. I'd also position the sub front & center since it will be covering frequencies that are directional.
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post #15 of 47 Old 03-29-2014, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Running both the LFE and the speaker level inputs to the sub is a mess. That means the only low-passing of the non-LFE signal to the sub is that afforded by the sub amp filter.
You should only use the speaker level inputs to the sub when there's no other choice, ie., when you have an old 2.0 receiver. Why Def tech says so I can't imagine, maybe that comes from the same guy who writes their frequency response specs. rolleyes.gif

I see. So I just removed speakers cables out from sub, only LFE. Setting low pass in sub to max according to manual at 150 Hz, and setting Yamaha cross over to 80 Hz. I am testing now.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhaveri View Post

I see. So I just removed speakers cables out from sub, only LFE. Setting low pass in sub to max according to manual at 150 Hz, and setting Yamaha cross over to 80 Hz. I am testing now.

Just finished testing. For whatever reason, the music sounded better at loud volumes when speaker wires and LFE were both run through sub. My yamaha has 90 watts per channel power rating, but speakers are rated at 150 watts, thus are mismatched with yamaha. Is it possible that since sub is 250 watts, it is supplying extra power to the speakers even though it is a mess to run both speakers and LFE through sub?
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post #17 of 47 Old 03-29-2014, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhaveri View Post

I see. So I just removed speakers cables out from sub, only LFE. Setting low pass in sub to max according to manual at 150 Hz, and setting Yamaha cross over to 80 Hz. I am testing now.

Why would you set it at 80hz if your receiver determined 120hz? As henrich3 pointed out 140hz is probably better than 120hz, not going down.
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post #18 of 47 Old 03-29-2014, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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cel4145: Because another comment here was to start 10 Hz above speaker minimum, and slowly going up. I did at the end went back upto 120 Hz in crossver setting in Yamha, no speker cables to sub only LFE, sub byspass low to max 150 Hz. For some strange reason that is not as good as when I ran speaker throuth sub togather with LFE, and set sub lopass at 95 Hz, and crossover in yamaha at 120 Hz. I am completely confused. For time being leaving speakeras cable out of sub, as you recommend. However I would like to understand why the other option was better sounding although messy. Guess it was the power from sub to speker?
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post #19 of 47 Old 03-29-2014, 05:01 PM
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If your receiver said 120hz, that's typically the lowest you should go because your receiver is actually measuring the in-room response of your speakers.

The sub doesn't send any extra power to the speakers. And did you rerun YPAO when using the speaker/sub combo speaker level input/outputs? YPAO would have configured it's EQ for the speaker/sub separate.

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post #20 of 47 Old 03-29-2014, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I did run YPAO again after removing speakers cable out of sub. I am not sure if YPAO adjusts EQ? My model is rx - a730. low end yamaha aventage. I will check that tonight. Now at movies Noah.
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post #21 of 47 Old 03-30-2014, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhaveri View Post

I did run YPAO again after removing speakers cable out of sub. I am not sure if YPAO adjusts EQ? My model is rx - a730. low end yamaha aventage. I will check that tonight. Now at movies Noah.

CEL4145: I checked the results after YPAO run. In Parametric EQ setting, it checked YPAO flat. In manual it meant Adjusts individaul speakers to acheive the same characteristics. There were three other settings, Manual, YPAO front, YPAO Neutral, and Through. I guess I have to do some tweaking of EQ based on other reviews of this speakers, here is one from Soundvision which says the same as before that passing speaker cables through sub helps unless EQ is tweaked, http://www.soundandvision.com/content/definitive-technology-procinema-600-speaker-system-page-2

I will appreciate help in terms of manual tweaking of EQ,

Setup
Setup would seem straightforward, though Def Tech offers two options here. The recommend method requires two extra speaker cables, because the subwoofer has an extra set of terminals to facilitate this specific hook-up. The front speakers are connected directly to the subwoofer, and cables from the subwoofer are connected to the L/R terminals on the A/V receiver. The second method is more conventional—all speakers connected directly to the AVR.

For the second setup, you connect an analog coax cable between the AVR's subwoofer output and the LFE input on the sub. For Def Tech's recommended method, this step is optional, depending on how you set up your AVR's speaker configuration.

Starting with the more common setup option, I used the Audyssey room correction in the Onkyo TX-NR609 AVR to auto-calibrate the speakers and apply room equalization, and I found the mid-bass was not as present or defined as I would like, even with the BDSS technology. I played with the equalization manually, specifically boosting the mids at 650kHz and 1000kHz (among other tweaks) and made some slight changes to the positioning of the speakers. I ended up re-calibrating manually as well.

I decided to try Def Tech's recommended connections, which resulted in a bit more punch and definition in the mid-bass. It wasn't a tremendous difference, and I still needed to do some manual tweaking of the settings to get the sound to my liking.

Performance
Once I got the sound exactly the way I wanted it, I started to really enjoy the ProCinema 600. These speakers are impressive, especially for their size. When I was immersed in a Blu-ray movie or kicking back listening to some tunes, I quickly forgot this is a sat/sub system.

I didn't detect any gaps in the blending between the sats, center, and sub. The 360-degree soundfield was smooth and coherent, creating a sort of near-field effect.
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post #22 of 47 Old 03-30-2014, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

The ProCinema 600 speakers have 3 1/4" mids. They don't have much output below 140 Hz:.
Ouch. That pretty much forces anyone who owns them to run the sub way higher than any sub should be run. mad.gif
My advice now is to get rid of them and get some decent mains that actually can run to at least 100Hz, if not 80Hz.

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post #23 of 47 Old 03-30-2014, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I am still under 2 weeks for best buy return. Any recommendations for under $1000 5.1 speakers that allow main to run 100 Hz?
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post #24 of 47 Old 03-30-2014, 11:15 PM
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Infinity Primus P163BK bookshelf speakers. Their 6 1/2" mids will easily reach down below the standard 80 Hz crossover frequency. Five star reviews and they're currently selling for about $80 apiece on Amazon.

I'd recommend an Outlaw LFM-1 Plus to go with the Infinitys. This speaker & sub combo should far surpass the performance of the ProCinema 600's.
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post #25 of 47 Old 03-30-2014, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

Infinity Primus P163BK bookshelf speakers. Their 6 1/2" mids will easily reach down below the standard 80 Hz crossover frequency. Five star reviews and they're currently selling for about $80 apiece on Amazon.

Since I have to return the 5.1 system, I also need matiching center, and sub with these 4 bookshelf speakers. Any recommendations?
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post #26 of 47 Old 03-30-2014, 11:38 PM
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Get the same model speaker for the center. I edited my previous post to include a sub recommendation.
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post #27 of 47 Old 03-31-2014, 10:21 AM
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If you liked the DefTechs you could return the 600s and step up to a ‘hybrid’ PC800 system. Buy from a refurb seller a bunch of us DefTech guys have bought from, check the dedicated threads for more info. (ebay - bajawaverunner)

You can get 1 PC1000 ($135/ea.) and 4 PM800 ($75/ea.) for ~$435, and a SVS SB/PB 1000 ~$499.

It just depends on what you like, and your size and space requirements.

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post #28 of 47 Old 03-31-2014, 04:05 PM
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ProCinema 800's step up to a 4 1/2" mid driver, but that's still too small for good performance IMO. Bookshelf speakers with midrange sizes smaller than 5 1/4" usually have a hard time getting down to the standard 80 Hz crossover point and their max SPL won't be as high. A PC800 would ideally use a 120 Hz crossover:

SoundAndVision ProCinema 800 measurements

I believe the ProMonitor 1000's would be a closer performance match to the Infinitys recommended earlier.
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post #29 of 47 Old 04-01-2014, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I am about to exchange Definitive Technology Procinema 600 for 1000 system, which is $1595 at Best Buy. Is my Yamaha RX-A730 $700 mismatch for Pro1000? Or upgrade that to match speakers while I am at it?
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post #30 of 47 Old 04-01-2014, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhaveri View Post

I am about to exchange Definitive Technology Procinema 600 for 1000 system, which is $1595 at Best Buy. Is my Yamaha RX-A730 $700 mismatch for Pro1000? Or upgrade that to match speakers while I am at it?
So you are going from ProCinema 600 5.1 setup to the Procinema 1000 5.1 setup? The Procinema 1000 can handle an 80hz crossover

The ProCinema 1000 5.1 is a better set-up than the 600 and it will work fine with your yamaha rx-a730
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