NEW "BEST UNDER $800 SUB ENTERS THE MIX" - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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HI EVERYONE!  Ok, here I'm the newbie on the block so let the debate start a new. Guess what?  I'm shopping for a new under $800 sub. I have a small room 13X11 X8.  I like a tight sound and not  overly concerned with SPL but I am concerned with low bass extension  Ok I'll fess up, I like organ music and don't enjoy Rap or buildings exploding so you can gather I will use it far more for music then movies lol.  The leading contenders appear to be the HSU line of adjustable Q subs and the SVS subs, however I'm now hearing about the Power Sound X15 line and Power Sound Audio in general.  Save me some money and time and lets here your opinions as well as which type and model.  Have a great woofin day!

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post #2 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 03:38 PM
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Don't forget Rythmik subs!
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post #3 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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SORRY LOL  I need a proof reader  thats HEAR not here lol.  I'm here but want to hear more!

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post #4 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

Don't forget Rythmik subs!

Not in his budget.

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post #5 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 04:00 PM
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If you can push your budget just a bit more, I think the Reaction BPS 215 is worth a look. You might also check out the Dayton T1504K kit subwoofer, you need to do a little bit of assembly with that one but the driver is very good and assembly is very easy. Outside of those I would just go for the Hsu or SVS subs.
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post #6 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Not in his budget.

And that would be incorrect! wink.giftongue.gif

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/LV12R.html
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post #7 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

And that would be incorrect! wink.giftongue.gif

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/LV12R.html
Forgot about that one. It doesn't quite match the other subs mentioned though.
The $800 subs are a step up.

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post #8 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Forgot about that one. It doesn't quite match the other subs mentioned though.
The $800 subs are a step up.

Yeah, but you posted that there weren't any in his budget, not your
Opinion that it wouldn't match the performance of the other subs.

In his size room,with his requirements the Rythmik could very
Well meet his requirements.
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post #9 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

Yeah, but you posted that there weren't any in his price range, not your
Opinion that it wouldn't match the other subs.

In his size room,with his requirements the Rythmik could very
Well meet his requirements.
I DID say I forgot about that one.
Based on his post the lvr12 would be easily surpassed by the HSU VTF 3, PB 2000, or PSA XV 15.

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post #10 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

I DID say I forgot about that one.
Based on his post the lvr12 would be easily surpassed by the HSU VTF 3, PB 2000, or PSA XV 15.

Well, that would be YOUR opinion.. (Which is what the OP asked for)

My opinion is that for the OP's size room,and that he stated that he doesn't need
Huge SPL's and the fact that he will use it it for largely music listening...the servo
Controlled Rythmik could very easily fit the bill. wink.gif
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post #11 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

Well, that would be YOUR opinion.. (Which is what the OP asked for)

My opinion is that for the OP's size room,and that he stated that he doesn't need
Huge SPL's and the fact that he will use it it for largely music listening...the servo
Controlled Rythmik could very easily fit the bill. wink.gif
Maybe you need to reread the op. He is looking for MAX EXTENSION. The LVR signs off on the low 20s.

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post #12 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Maybe you need to reread the op. He is looking for MAX EXTENSION. The LVR signs off on the low 20s.

My reading comprehension is just fine...thank you!
The subs in the OP's price range can generally get down to
The high teens in freq response (SVS,HSU,PSA) the Rythmik
Down to the low 20's. Not really a HUGE difference. Certainly
Not enough to dismiss the Rythmik.
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post #13 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

My reading comprehension is just fine...thank you!
The subs in the OP's price range can generally get down to
The high teens in freq response (SVS,HSU,PSA) the Rythmik
Down to the low 20's. Not really a HUGE difference. Certainly
Not enough to dismiss the Rythmik.
The HSU will get to 16hz, the SVS to 17 and the PSA probably the same. That makes the difference between feeling/hearing the lowest pipe organ note and not.

The LVR does not play I'm the same league as the others.

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post #14 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

The HSU will get to 16hz, the SVS to 17 and the PSA probably the same. That makes the difference between feeling/hearing the lowest pipe organ note and not.

The LVR does not play I'm the same league as the others.

That is your opinion, mine is that the Rythmik will be just as competitive and
Have the distinct advantage of the well documented "direct servo technology". wink.gif

Your just miffed because I corrected you when you posted..."Not in his budget" tongue.gif

Later...smile.gif
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post #15 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

That is your opinion, mine is that the Rythmik will be just as competitive and
Have the distinct advantage of the well documented "direct servo technology". wink.gif

Your just miffed because I corrected you when you posted..."Not in his budget" tongue.gif

Later...smile.gif

I have directly compared the LV12r's predecessor, the FV12, to a VTF3 mk3. The FV12 was excellent for its price, but it didn't quite have the output or extension ability of the VTF3. If you don't need loud and you don't need sub 20 Hz, the LV12r would do fine. The VTF2 mk4 would be up to that task as well. While a handful of organs have the ability to playback a 16 Hz note (they need a 32 ft pipe to do it), they aren't very common on recordings. I'm not sure I would buy a huge sub just to playback that very occasional and uncommon low note unless I were a devoted pipe organ enthusiast. Hsu ships a demo disc with their subs that have a pipe organ recording of Saint-Saëns with a tremendous, sustained 16 Hz fundamental. I ought to check out a spectral graph of that tune sometime.
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post #16 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I have directly compared the LV12r's predecessor, the FV12, to a VTF3 mk3. The FV12 was excellent for its price, but it didn't quite have the output or extension ability of the VTF3. If you don't need loud and you don't need sub 20 Hz, the LV12r would do fine. The VTF2 mk4 would be up to that task as well. While a handful of organs have the ability to playback a 16 Hz note (they need a 32 ft pipe to do it), they aren't very common on recordings. I'm not sure I would buy a huge sub just to playback that very occasional and uncommon low note unless I were a devoted pipe organ enthusiast. Hsu ships a demo disc with their subs that have a pipe organ recording of Saint-Saëns with a tremendous, sustained 16 Hz fundamental. I ought to check out a spectral graph of that tune sometime.

Thanx, that was a very informative post..I'm not familiar with pipe organ music. I didn't think
Pipe organs went below 20hz but I wasn't sure.
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post #17 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 06:28 PM
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I will post an oft overlooked option:  PSA XS15.  Sealed 15" 500/1000 watts, will play 16 Hz notes cleanly without port noise or chuffing.  Since you are not as concerned with max output for movies, this would be a great option, and will actually extend lower than the ported subs.  With a longest room dimension of 13', room gain will kick in for you around 43 Hz.  I would expect this sub to play relatively flat to 14 Hz or lower in your room.

 

Granted, whether you can actually hear that 16 Hz note is debatable, some believe you are actually hearing the 2nd order harmonic of 32 Hz.

 

I can feel 16 Hz for sure, but hearing it I can not say for a 100% fact.  Regardless, a very high %, much higher than 99%, of all music is over 40Hz.


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post #18 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 07:04 PM
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According to Wikipedia, tones as low as 12 Hz can be heard under ideal conditions. Also, I hate to say this but the XS15 would be a particularly poor choice for chasing after a 16 Hz note. The XV15 nearly manages to hit 40% distortion at 16 Hz, and that model was ported. Take away the port and it would be so much worse.
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post #19 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

According to Wikipedia, tones as low as 12 Hz can be heard under ideal conditions. Also, I hate to say this but the XS15 would be a particularly poor choice for chasing after a 16 Hz note. The XV15 nearly manages to hit 40% distortion at 16 Hz, and that model was ported. Take away the port and it would be so much worse.

Sure but not all of us sit outside under the moonlight listening to our subs...place the sub in room and distortion will drastically reduce being going from outdoor 2m rms to indoor 1/8 space corner loaded will only require half of the cone excursion and power to reach those max burst sweeps you live by. Guess what that means....drastically lower distortion.
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post #20 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markbark View Post

 not  overly concerned with SPL but I am concerned with low bass extension  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
 the XS15 would be a particularly poor choice for chasing after a 16 Hz note. The XV15 nearly manages to hit 40% distortion at 16 Hz, and that model was ported. Take away the port and it would be so much worse.

Maybe at max CEA2010 output using a sine wave and electronic measurement.  I assume it would play clean at moderate volumes, as extension should be much lower in ops small room, and no port noise or chuffing to worry about.

 

I know I cannot detect "distortion" with my PSA sub when listening to music or movies.  Just sounds like clean bass to me.  Also, I can play content that makes ported subs huff and chuff like crazy without any trace of struggle.  Crank up "The Bass Will Destroy You" on your ported subs even a little bit and see what happens.  Plays clean as a whistle on mine.  Just saying.

 

Perhaps a more discerning listener would be able to detect what sounds like distortion, but I cannot.


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post #21 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 08:01 PM
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If you keep the volume low on a PSA sub, you may be able to play infrasound cleanly, but the problem with that is if the volume is low, you can not perceive infrasound so what's the point. Turn the volume up on a PSA sub, and distortion will overtake the fundamental before the fundamental even begins to matter. To be honest, that will be a problem with any of these $800 subs, but it is all the more severe with anything using the Power X driver from PSA especially in a sealed configuration. Room gain does not make a sealed sub magically perform better than a ported sub with respect to a THD percentage.
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post #22 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 08:27 PM
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I would think that the PSA XS15 might be your best choice. However, you might need some EQ to effectively hear those notes. It will depend on what kind of room gain you get.

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post #23 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Sure but not all of us sit outside under the moonlight listening to our subs...place the sub in room and distortion will drastically reduce being going from outdoor 2m rms to indoor 1/8 space corner loaded will only require half of the cone excursion and power to reach those max burst sweeps you live by. Guess what that means....drastically lower distortion.

What are you talking about.....I am still sipping Irish whiskey playing sinewaves and listening for distortion. Isnt that what HT is all about anyway??? wink.gif
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post #24 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 08:40 PM
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Room gain should be abundant in ops room.  Shady makes a good point about how audible low frequency is at moderate volume.  Again, I don't know how much it matters regardless, music frequencies are normally so much higher.  I know 16 Hz is the cutoff for frequencies that are noticeable to me as far as feeling and rumble without going very loud(a lot of shake and rumble even at -15 to -20).


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post #25 of 85 Old 03-30-2014, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Good morning everyone!   Please THIS IS NOT YOUR DAUGHTERS " HUNGER" GAMES" LOL,  I  leave everyone for just a few hours and see what happens  "cry havoc!   I appreciate everyone's input!!   Hear here lol!.  Yes I do want extension, I LIKE organ music!

 

Anyway, does anyone see that great a difference between the HSU 2 or the HSU 3 besides a few hundred bucks and a broken back?  How about HSU tube thingy!  Oh BTW, dis you know that if you call HSU they pronounce it SUE?  They are also of little help lol, friendly but.......     Still considering all suggested options... I'm going away now for a few hours to watch UCONN while I play organ music in the background: so please don't start a war while I'm gone!  Have a great woofin day!  GO UCONN

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post #26 of 85 Old 03-30-2014, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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If You'll all BEAR with me for a second it's NOT that any excellent subwoofer cannot hit 17 or 18 HZ It's how high you have to force spls to hear it!  You must have a flat curve ( pardon the oxymoron )   What difference does it make if you have to force up the power to barely hear a 16 hz note if when a 28 hz note is played it blows you out of the room.  This is what will happen if you have a steep rolloff curve and is why it is THOUGHT that a sealed sub woofer rolling off at 12bb per octave is "better" then a ported or passive subwoofer rolling off at 24db ( or so ).

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post #27 of 85 Old 03-30-2014, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markbark View Post

If You'll all BEAR with me for a second it's NOT that any excellent subwoofer cannot hit 17 or 18 HZ It's how high you have to force spls to hear it!  You must have a flat curve ( pardon the oxymoron )   What difference does it make if you have to force up the power to barely hear a 16 hz note if when a 28 hz note is played it blows you out of the room.  This is what will happen if you have a steep rolloff curve and is why it is THOUGHT that a sealed sub woofer rolling off at 12bb per octave is "better" then a ported or passive subwoofer rolling off at 24db ( or so ).

Do you have an EQ? Or do you plan on buying one? And what is the low frequency note that you are trying to hear? 16hz?

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post #28 of 85 Old 03-30-2014, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Cell, I know of only one eq that has any effect below 20 hz and tha's an SEA 2800!  Besides, if you start with a subwoofer that has a flat and extended bottom it's no trick to manipulate the curve such as moving location or eq.  It's not so much which frequency I want to hear, it's more that since I like ALL music I want to hear what ever has been recorded..be it Pink Floyd or any Telarc recording.

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post #29 of 85 Old 03-30-2014, 10:08 AM
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Then how about the SVS SB-2000? Fairly flat to 30hz with slow roll off from there because SVS has already EQd it with the built in DSP.

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post #30 of 85 Old 03-30-2014, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markbark View Post

Anyway, does anyone see that great a difference between the HSU 2 or the HSU 3 besides a few hundred bucks and a broken back?  How about HSU tube thingy!  Oh BTW, dis you know that if you call HSU they pronounce it SUE?  They are also of little help lol, friendly but.......     Still considering all suggested options... I'm going away now for a few hours to watch UCONN while I play organ music in the background: so please don't start a war while I'm gone!  Have a great woofin day!  GO UCONN

The difference is between them is mostly extension power. In single port mode, the VTF3 can hit 16 Hz at 108.4 dB in CEA testing, whereas the VTF2 hits 103.7. That is almost, but not quite, double the output. That is mainly due to the VTF3s large ports and enclosure. Above that point there is not such a great difference. If you are after 16 Hz specifically, go for the VTF3. If you don't need massive 16 Hz output, the VTF2 ought to do very well.
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