SVS PB-2000 vs PSA XV-15 - how do I decide? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 138 Old 04-24-2014, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

Brian I'm laughing right now because when I saw you post this earlier today I almost went and grabbed some popcorn and a comfortable chair so I could sit back and watch the fireworks start. I had a feeling it was going get entertaining, it did not disappoint. rolleyes.gif
Same while I was writing it. I actually deleted it once then said screw it...they must be corrected haha

But yeah I knew it would start something. Unfortunate it always does around here

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post #92 of 138 Old 04-24-2014, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post


If it's flat below max output that's news to me.
Which if the case then the only time the XV has an advantage is at max output which isn't going to happen often so most would be better served with increased output and deeper extension of the pb2000 at most listening volumes.

Before you make a definitive statement about how bad a subs frequency response is, take a look at the frequency response graph posted on data-bass....flat as a pancake at 50Hz, then a slight rise around 80 Hz.

 

It can produce an extra 2 dB or so at absolute peak maximum output at 50 Hz.  Do you think you will notice slightly more headroom at 50 Hz when listening to 115dB bass peaks in room?

 

Your in room response will have easily 5- 10 times the effect on frequency response than a 1 or 2 dB variation that shows up in ground plane testing.  How boomy do you think 2 extra dB of headroom will sound at 50 Hz with this in room response?

 


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

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post #93 of 138 Old 04-24-2014, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Before you make a definitive statement about how bad a subs frequency response is, take a look at the frequency response graph posted on data-bass....flat as a pancake at 50Hz, then a slight rise around 80 Hz.

It can produce an extra 2 dB or so at absolute peak maximum output at 50 Hz.  Do you think you will notice slightly more headroom at 50 Hz when listening to 115dB bass peaks in room?

Your in room response will have easily 5- 10 times the effect on frequency response than a 1 or 2 dB variation that shows up in ground plane testing.  How boomy do you think 2 extra dB of headroom will sound at 50 Hz with this in room response?


Hahaha well played!!!

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post #94 of 138 Old 04-24-2014, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post


Hahaha well played!!!

I think it does illustrate that Kini's understanding of things is a bit flawed.  I am not trying to slam him, I just think he has formed opinions that are a bit off base, so trying to be constructive in sharing a different perspective on what he thinks he is seeing.  Hopefully it is helpful rather than just argumentative.  So Kini if you are reading this, know that I am just trying to offer a counter point to your observations. :)

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post #95 of 138 Old 04-24-2014, 06:50 PM
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Again I'll mention in this thread that the "ignore" button is a wonderful feature on this forum.

I also understand why more people on a daily basis are leaving these forums to the tr**** and going elsewhere. smile.gif

I'm planning on getting a mic and REW in the next month or two just for kicks. I'm curious what my "terrible" xv15 is really doing. smile.giftongue.gif
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post #96 of 138 Old 04-24-2014, 07:37 PM
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This thread is somewhat entertaining, but ran short of sense a long time ago. Let's see if I got this all straight. Shadyj doesn't like any PSA products and has said so on numerous occasions … i.e. … every chance he gets. I know, not exactly breaking news. Kini62 thinks PSA subs have a specific flaw or flaws and aren't nearly as good as SVS products. Kini62 is also tired of PSA owners claiming that PSA makes the greatest subwoofers ever made. This is a rather baffling statement. I've searched and read plenty of threads, yet I haven't come across these statements by any PSA owner. Not saying they don't exist, but I just haven't found them.

I suspect if I go to the Hsu thread, the Rythmik thread, the SVS thread, the Funk Audio thread, the JTR thread, the Seaton thread, the … you get the idea, I will find many, many very satisfied customers singing praises on their purchase, and with good reason. They are very happy campers. That the customers in the PSA threads dare do the same is somehow wrong or tiring? I'm not sure how to respond to this. All I can say is that I own both SVS and PSA products and am extremely happy with my decisions. Yep, I know full well that there are better subwoofers than what I own, but that doesn't make me any less satisfied.
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post #97 of 138 Old 04-24-2014, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

If it's flat below max output that's news to me.
Which if the case then the only time the XV has an advantage is at max output which isn't going to happen often so most would be better served with increased output and deeper extension of the pb2000 at most listening volumes.

I would suggest thoroughly reading the know-how tab over at data-bass. The base response of the XV15 is +/-3db 21- 200hz and on the long term compression sweep the XV15 maintains good composure up to the 110db sweep(no hump). The XV15 alctually had some passing 12.5hz output inroom when Ricci tested it(94db). The part in bold makes exactly 0 sense. smile.gif
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post #98 of 138 Old 04-25-2014, 07:30 AM
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OP just order both and return the lesser sub...if it turns out to be the PB2000 it cost you zero outta pocket. I've heard drivers from the Nsd(also owned), Plus and Ultra line up. I was fortunate enough to have a friends SB13u in home for about 4+months. I'd bet dollars to donuts the guys doing the arguing in this thread have never experienced these 2 subs first hand. For the record...if you read through enough threads you'll see that some of the posters in this thread have heard or own both(PSA & Svs) and have already expressed their opinions/ or comments...the others would be better served to be put on your ignored list...JMO.
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post #99 of 138 Old 04-25-2014, 08:32 AM
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I own a PC12-NSD, an SB2000, and an XS15 pair. They're all fantastic in both quality and value. I listen to music and do home theater stuff on all of them. None disappoints, ever. Please contact me by DM if you would like a more complete comparison of these excellent products and these excellent brands.
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post #100 of 138 Old 04-25-2014, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

I own a PC12-NSD, an SB2000, and an XS15 pair. They're all fantastic in both quality and value. I listen to music and do home theater stuff on all of them. None disappoints, ever. Please contact me by DM if you would like a more complete comparison of these excellent products and these excellent brands.

Exactly....what I would do....I've always sought owners by reading their sigs or getting information while reading their posts. I would simply send them a PM and allow them to further elaborate on those said products. It easy to be a keyboard commando on any forums.

I know... whilst I had the SB13....I received dozens of private messages asking for my on take on the two and I shared it as honestly as I could.

Some guys have zero tact...both here or on other forums...knowledgeable or not IMO.
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post #101 of 138 Old 04-25-2014, 09:45 AM
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The last 2 posts are some of the best advice given in this thread...I have spoke with both of these gentelman via PM in regards to different subs, and I can say we all agree that the PSA subs hold thier own against other brands very well. Sure we can nit pick data all day long, but in the end it is nice to get some actual feedback from those who have owned different brands.

I will say once more a slight hump in the response at max burst is not a huge deal. Nobody bags on the PB13U having a hump in the response at max burst 20hz mode. It has some inductance that has been controlled with dsp...I have yet to hear any owners complain about it.

What we have here is a small group of anti-psa antagonists that like to create strawman debates. smile.gif

Is PSA the end all, surely not...I am willing to bet your average enthusiast would be quite content with any ID product(SVS, HSU, Rythmik, Outlaw, PSA). I would focus more on the perks outside of all out performance(warranty, CS, american made, free trial...etc.) when purchasing a ID sub.
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post #102 of 138 Old 04-25-2014, 09:57 AM
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Billy,that is so the truth. I would also say no class..
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post #103 of 138 Old 04-25-2014, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post



Go down to Power Compression. That is the graph you would look at to examine the "response" of a subwoofer.

Is there a *small* hump in the 45-65hz range at the HIGHEST sweep? Sure. Now, this is over 110dB. Face the driver to the mic and it would be 112-114dB. Pop the XV15 down in a corner of a typical room and this sweep would be producing levels around 120-123dB(ish). So at 120+ dB...will the XV15 show a small bump in the response. it sure will...smile.gif

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Comparatively, there is much more than a "small" hump. Forget about the highest sweep, which is far beyond the capability of the sub to play accurately with 20% THD up top and 15dB of compression at the bottom.

Use the 110dB sweep and you have the equivalent to a 6dB "hump", or a change in response from the advertised (basic) response.

Comparing the highest sweep to the CEA max bust results shows what Shady and others have been saying since the results were published. The headroom of the sub is at 50 Hz where the "DSP tweak" is basically in the form of a notch filter to flatten the inductance hump. There's nothing inherently wrong with notching a hump in naked response, I've done it many times with good results for 12 years. The problem I have is how you attempt to obscure the obvious fact of the matter by attacking the person who's pointing it out, errantly citing other metrics and using subjective comments as a valid metric while saying you prefer measurements, etc. You obviously have used the inductance hump headroom at the notch in your output averaging from the maximum burst results yet here you're dismissing it as an irrelevant "small" hump only seen at the "highest sweep", which is simply not true.

The CEA max burst curve laid over the highest sweep compression curve shows the effects from compression and the reversion to the subs naked response when pushed to the metrics allowable limits.

The "120dB +" claim is out of left field, completely without qualifiers or corroboration by data of any kind. In context, it's actually the same thing you've accused ShadyJ of doing... in reverse.

LL

Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Before you make a definitive statement about how bad a subs frequency response is, take a look at the frequency response graph posted on data-bass....flat as a pancake at 50Hz, then a slight rise around 80 Hz.

It can produce an extra 2 dB or so at absolute peak maximum output at 50 Hz.  Do you think you will notice slightly more headroom at 50 Hz when listening to 115dB bass peaks in room?

Your in room response will have easily 5- 10 times the effect on frequency response than a 1 or 2 dB variation that shows up in ground plane testing.  How boomy do you think 2 extra dB of headroom will sound at 50 Hz with this in room response?



"Flat as a pancake at 50 Hz, then a slight rise at 80 Hz"? What's your reference point for that description? Is that not an obvious null at 50 Hz at the mic position?

In light of TV's claim made in his post quoted above, you posted a graph showing <95dB @ 50 Hz. Do you have the same graph showing 120dB + at 50 Hz? Otherwise, I'm lost as to how it's relevant to the discussion.
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post #104 of 138 Old 04-25-2014, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


"Flat as a pancake at 50 Hz, then a slight rise at 80 Hz"? What's your reference point for that description? Is that not an obvious null at 50 Hz at the mic position?

In light of TV's claim made in his post quoted above, you posted a graph showing <95dB @ 50 Hz. Do you have the same graph showing 120dB + at 50 Hz? Otherwise, I'm lost as to how it's relevant to the discussion.

Sorry Bosso, this was a bit misleading without the previous context being clear..Kini was stating that a huge peak in the frequency response of the XV15 at 50 Hz would sound horribly boomy in his room.  I replied that, according to the FR chart of the XV15 on data-bass, one can see a rather flat FR out to 200 Hz.  I did not post the graph.(cant seem to copy and paste it.)  I then went on to make the point that the small peak in output at 50 Hz on the max burst output chart equates to a couple of dB of max headroom at 50 Hz, which would do nothing to make the sub sound boomy in his room.

 

To further support this, I posted an in room response of his favorite brand(SVS), which shows a large null at 50 Hz.   2 dB of additional headroom being available at 50 Hz would in no way do anything to sound boomy or bloated.  The in room response of a sub will have a far more drastic effect on FR than a dB or two of variation in ground plane testing.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

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post #105 of 138 Old 04-25-2014, 02:44 PM
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Hey Bosso....you know there is a good chance that TV can't read your post for obvious reasons...are you his(shadyJ) big brother or something just curious is all. I'm asking because I don't think I am alone and struggling with this question.

Thanks...Bill

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post #106 of 138 Old 04-25-2014, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

...the others would be better served to be put on your ignored list...JMO.

But yet you continue with baiting comments like your last one rolleyes.gif

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post #107 of 138 Old 04-26-2014, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Sorry Bosso, this was a bit misleading without the previous context being clear..Kini was stating that a huge peak in the frequency response of the XV15 at 50 Hz would sound horribly boomy in his room.  I replied that, according to the FR chart of the XV15 on data-bass, one can see a rather flat FR out to 200 Hz.  I did not post the graph.(cant seem to copy and paste it.)  I then went on to make the point that the small peak in output at 50 Hz on the max burst output chart equates to a couple of dB of max headroom at 50 Hz, which would do nothing to make the sub sound boomy in his room.

To further support this, I posted an in room response of his favorite brand(SVS), which shows a large null at 50 Hz.   2 dB of additional headroom being available at 50 Hz would in no way do anything to sound boomy or bloated.  The in room response of a sub will have a far more drastic effect on FR than a dB or two of variation in ground plane testing.

I understood your point but you missed mine. smile.gif

First, looking at the max burst 'curve', I don't understand how you and others are missing the hump, which is magnitudes more than 2dB. The basic response shows 2-1/2 dB difference from 50 Hz to 20 Hz. The Max Burst Output Chart shows 13dB difference from 50 Hz to 20 Hz, not a couple dB.

That's gonna be quite audible to all but a deaf person. It's an inarguable fact that continues to be argued. I couldn't care less about the sub... not my cup of tea. What I object to is the threads being completely derailed by attacks against ShadyJ and others by posters who apparently have nothing to add to the thread but those silly attacks.

TV should know better. I especially object to his inferring that ShadyJ is the reason Josh Ricci doesn't post at AVS any more. That's as absurd as it gets around here short of CC's antics.

Sticking to the discussion, does anyone have an in-room FR graph with a single XV15 at "123ishdB"? I won't hold my breath, but I'm certainly interested to see this 'small hump' in response at that level. Just the equipment used, the calibration method and the mic distance to the sub will be fine. The driver orientation is irrelevant.
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post #108 of 138 Old 04-26-2014, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


I understood your point but you missed mine. smile.gif

First, looking at the max burst 'curve', I don't understand how you and others are missing the hump, which is magnitudes more than 2dB. The basic response shows 2-1/2 dB difference from 50 Hz to 20 Hz. The Max Burst Output Chart shows 13dB difference from 50 Hz to 20 Hz, not a couple dB.

That's gonna be quite audible to all but a deaf person.
It's an inarguable fact that continues to be argued. I couldn't care less about the sub... not my cup of tea. What I object to is the threads being completely derailed by attacks against ShadyJ and others by posters who apparently have nothing to add to the thread but those silly attacks.

TV should know better. I especially object to his inferring that ShadyJ is the reason Josh Ricci doesn't post at AVS any more. That's as absurd as it gets around here short of CC's antics.

Sticking to the discussion, does anyone have an in-room FR graph with a single XV15 at "123ishdB"? I won't hold my breath, but I'm certainly interested to see this 'small hump' in response at that level. Just the equipment used, the calibration method and the mic distance to the sub will be fine. The driver orientation is irrelevant.

And the LMS Ultra is 15 dB louder at 50 Hz than it is at 20 Hz.  That's the worst argument I have ever heard in saying a sub has a bad or flawed response.  Of course a sub, any sub, will go louder at 50 Hz than 20 Hz at peak output.  What the heck does that have to do with how good or bad a sub will sound???  The point is, someone said a particular sub will sound like a boomy mess because its peak output capability is the highest at 50 Hz, while its basic response is relatively flat until beyond 110 dB in groundplane testing at 2m.  Its just a statement that makes no sense whatsoever.  Does the sub have a little bit (a couple dB, as I stated)more headroom at 50 Hz than it does at 40 or 60?  Yes.

 

If I am listening to music or a movie, I don't see how an extra dB or two of headroom at 50 Hz,  with a fairly flat response up until the last couple of dB of output is going to sound whacky, or boomy.  And this is coming from critics who have never heard the sub.  According to your argument the LMS Ultra would be even worse.

 

I don't claim to have your depth of knowledge when it comes to subs, but this argument makes no sense at all to me.

 

And people are not just attacking others at random for no reason.  But if a detractor comes into a PSA thread, and makes a fictional statement about a sub they have never heard, due to a poor understanding of the data on a graph, then of course people are going to argue the merits of such a statement.

 

I just can't see how having the peak in maximum output at 50 Hz is something so terrible that it will sound bad.  Quite a few subs seem to have a peak in max output around this area(SVS PB Ultra).  I suppose if I were listening to music at 115 dB that a 50 Hz note would play 2 dB louder than the 40 or 60 Hz tone?   Would anyone notice this?  I can't imagine so.  Just does not sound like a reasonable argument, and would only be revealed in the subs last couple of dB of max output.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

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post #109 of 138 Old 04-26-2014, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

"Flat as a pancake at 50 Hz, then a slight rise at 80 Hz"? What's your reference point for that description? Is that not an obvious null at 50 Hz at the mic position?

In light of TV's claim made in his post quoted above, you posted a graph showing <95dB @ 50 Hz. Do you have the same graph showing 120dB + at 50 Hz? Otherwise, I'm lost as to how it's relevant to the discussion.

 

 

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


I understood your point but you missed mine. smile.gif
 

Flat as a pancake FR was referring to the FR graph on data-bass for the XV15.  I posted a in room graph of the PB2000, which is not what my statement was referring to, although you thought I was.  So you did not understand my point.  I stated that an additional 2 dB of headroom at 50 Hz would not result in a sub sounding like a boomy mess in room.  The room will have a much more drastic effect on a subs frequency response than what a small peak in max output in outdoor groundplane testing will cause.  To illustrate this point, I posted an in room graph that showed a big null at 50 Hz of a sub with a picture perfect, razor flat groundplane FR.  Given a 10 or 15 dB null at 50Hz, I will gladly take 2-3 extra dB of max headroom at 50 Hz, which the XV15 provides.   That was my point.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

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post #110 of 138 Old 04-27-2014, 05:05 AM
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My observation is that the 'dislike' for PSA products stemed from or was exacerbated by the PSA Value Factor, which almost compares the maximum of PSA's output numbers to the minimum of its competitors' output numbers, and thus making the Value Factor misleading. You don't see Hsu or SVS doing it, right? When a company does this, the owner only has himself to blame when his product is being scrutinized.
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post #111 of 138 Old 04-27-2014, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by chuckychuck7 View Post

My observation is that the 'dislike' for PSA products stemed from or was exacerbated by the PSA Value Factor, which almost compares the maximum of PSA's output numbers to the minimum of its competitors' output numbers, and thus making the Value Factor misleading. You don't see Hsu or SVS doing it, right? When a company does this, the owner only has himself to blame when his product is being scrutinized.

Where would you go to find a subs minimum output numbers?  Just saying, with all they hype, Ive check a couple of the charts and they seem to use legit numbers...havent checked all of them but I wouldn't feel comfortable calling them out on it until I checked the facts.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

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post #112 of 138 Old 04-27-2014, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by chuckychuck7 View Post

My observation is that the 'dislike' for PSA products stemed from or was exacerbated by the PSA Value Factor, which almost compares the maximum of PSA's output numbers to the minimum of its competitors' output numbers, and thus making the Value Factor misleading. You don't see Hsu or SVS doing it, right? When a company does this, the owner only has himself to blame when his product is being scrutinized.

The numbers Tom used are legit...what the Anti-PSA group does not like is how they were averaged.
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post #113 of 138 Old 04-27-2014, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post


The numbers Tom used are legit...what the Anti-PSA group does not like is how they were averaged.

Looks to me like they are averaged they same way CEA testing does, just like Hsu does on their website.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

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post #114 of 138 Old 04-27-2014, 07:48 AM
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Looks to me like they are averaged they same way CEA testing does, just like Hsu does on their website.
Last time I checked their respective websites, HSU breaks down their averages while PSA does not. I think shadyJ's allegation - or part of it, anyway - is that PSA doesn't break down their averages because doing so would reveal the peakiness of the sub's frequency response at a high level of output which, in turn, would expose the true quality of the driver responsible for it.

XV15
Quote:
- Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 116.6dB
- Low bass (40-63Hz): 125.1dB
Quote:
VTF-15H CEA 2010 One Port Open Test Result:
Tone Burst Center Frequency (Hz) | Maximum SPL | CEA 2010 Rating
16 | 109.3

20 | 113.4 | 115.0
25 | 115.0
31.5 | 119.2

40 | 122.3 | 122.6
50 | 122.7
63 | 122.9

80 | 123.0

VTF-15H CEA 2010 Two Ports Open Test Result:
Tone Burst Center Frequency (Hz) | Maximum SPL | CEA 2010 Rating
16 | 106.9

20 | 113.7 | 118.2
25 | 118.9
31.5 | 121.9

40 | 124.5 | 124.2
50 | 124.4
63 | 123.8

80 | 123.8
Quote:
VTF-3 MK4 CEA 2010 One Port Open Test Result:
Tone Burst Center Frequency (Hz) | Maximum SPL | CEA 2010 Rating
16 | 108.4

20 | 110.2 | 111.6
25 | 110.4
31.5 | 114.3

40 | 118.2 | 119.8
50 | 120.3
63 | 121.0

80 | 121.1

VTF-3 MK4 CEA 2010 Two Ports Open Test Result:
Tone Burst Center Frequency (Hz) | Maximum SPL | CEA 2010 Rating
20 | 111.4 | 115.1
25 | 116.3
31.5 | 117.7

40 | 120.0 | 121.2
50 | 121.7
63 | 121.8

80 | 121.7
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post #115 of 138 Old 04-27-2014, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Looks to me like they are averaged they same way CEA testing does, just like Hsu does on their website.

What I meant was the numbers are averaged together(20-31hz/40-63hz) instead of showing each individual frequency(HSU shows both). The Anti-PSA group stated by doing that masks the supposedly "flawed" response.
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post #116 of 138 Old 04-27-2014, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

And the LMS Ultra is 15 dB louder at 50 Hz than it is at 20 Hz.  That's the worst argument I have ever heard in saying a sub has a bad or flawed response.  Of course a sub, any sub, will go louder at 50 Hz than 20 Hz at peak output.  What the heck does that have to do with how good or bad a sub will sound???  The point is, someone said a particular sub will sound like a boomy mess because its peak output capability is the highest at 50 Hz, while its basic response is relatively flat until beyond 110 dB in groundplane testing at 2m.  Its just a statement that makes no sense whatsoever.  Does the sub have a little bit (a couple dB, as I stated)more headroom at 50 Hz than it does at 40 or 60?  Yes.

If I am listening to music or a movie, I don't see how an extra dB or two of headroom at 50 Hz,  with a fairly flat response up until the last couple of dB of output is going to sound whacky, or boomy.  And this is coming from critics who have never heard the sub.  According to your argument the LMS Ultra would be even worse.

I don't claim to have your depth of knowledge when it comes to subs, but this argument makes no sense at all to me.

And people are not just attacking others at random for no reason.  But if a detractor comes into a PSA thread, and makes a fictional statement about a sub they have never heard, due to a poor understanding of the data on a graph, then of course people are going to argue the merits of such a statement.

I just can't see how having the peak in maximum output at 50 Hz is something so terrible that it will sound bad.  Quite a few subs seem to have a peak in max output around this area(SVS PB Ultra).  I suppose if I were listening to music at 115 dB that a 50 Hz note would play 2 dB louder than the 40 or 60 Hz tone?   Would anyone notice this?  I can't imagine so.  Just does not sound like a reasonable argument, and would only be revealed in the subs last couple of dB of max output.

The LMS is irrelevant, but, since you brought it up as some sort of correction to my post:

The LMS was tested as a sealed sub with no EQ fed by an amp that could easily melt and shred it. It's down -10dB from 50 Hz to 20 Hz, not 15dB. Regardless, it holds its FR as the compression sweeps increase in level. It's -10dB from 50 Hz to 20 Hz at the lowest sweep and at the highest sweep. That's the point. No matter how hard you push it, up to its limits, the FR remains intact. Get it?

Also, no one in his right mind ever claimed a single LMS could sine sweep 123ish dB in-room at the LP in a typical room with only a slight change in response. If he did, he'd be challenged to prove it, which he could not do because it ain't happening, even though it will best 2 of the XV15 subs.

Yet, TV can say it about the XV-15 and you give that a complete pass. No fiction in that one, eh?

Show me this 123dB sine sweep in a typical room measured from the LP, which would be 3-4M, done by a credible source. I've called BS. Does that make me a troll or is my challenge without any merit because I've never heard the sub?

What's being discussed has nothing to do with listening to the sub. Does Josh have to listen to the subs he tests before he posts the test results or comments on them? Talk about a straw man argument. The Le isn't really high, the response changes only slightly at 123ish dB and there will be no audible difference because you're watching "a movie" because I haven't heard the sub and only have its actual objective performance data to go by? Okey-dokey, then.

One man's 'boomy mess' is another man's 'awesomest!'. That's why we try to stay on point in a debate and exclude the subjective nonsense.

The observation is that there is a 6dB+ inductance hump at around 50 Hz that's been notched out using digital filters and that, as the sub is pushed to its limit, the EQ'd basic FR disappears and the subs naked response reappears. Most of us who've measured and listened to subs in-room with a critical eye and ear know that this is audible. Those of us who've looked at measurements results from Nousaine, JJ, Slarti, Mullen, Ilkka and Josh over the past decade-plus know that the "inductance hump" max output result skews the average output result upward and can be used to offer a misleading average vs other subs (pretty much every other sub). Most of us who've built a few dozen or more subs know that the only way to avoid this phenomenon of reversion to naked response after signal shaping is to keep the sub well below its limits under use. That means the "Max Burst" results are irrelevant. You want more output? Add more subs. If you choose to live in Wonderland and use a single sub and the Max Burst numbers, then your sub will have a FR that's a moving target, depending on the soundtrack and desired playback level. Sorry, but that's the indisputable bottom line. Always has been, always will be.

This ^^^ has been discussed to the nth degree here and on other forums. Metrics were carefully devised and implemented by very astute and passionate fellas from around the world. No one accused anyone of being anti anything just because he stated the obvious and Josh Ricci probably wouldn't even own a measurement mic if that extraordinary work was not done years before Josh entered this or any forum about HT subwoofers.

The simple answer to all of it would have been to simply admit the sub has an inductance-induced roll off that was corrected by digital filters, explain the why and what fors and move on. Instead, the tactic was used that we've seen from TV for more than a decade. Belittle the messenger, call him a troll with an axe to grind, drop names like Josh Ricci and attribute false statements to him, talk about how many people really like the way it sounds and how that means more than interpreting data without having heard the sub and make insane claims about the performance, knowing the fan-dudes will never question those claims while they gleefully join in the mud slinging contest.

I would just like to say that, and this is only my opinion, FWIW, YMMV, close your eyes if it hurts them to read it, the fact that there's an all-new version with DSP tweaks that will be sent to Josh sooner than later to re-measure tells me everything I need to know about which side of this debate won.
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post #117 of 138 Old 04-27-2014, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Where would you go to find a subs minimum output numbers?  Just saying, with all they hype, Ive check a couple of the charts and they seem to use legit numbers...havent checked all of them but I wouldn't feel comfortable calling them out on it until I checked the facts.
XV15 on PSA site: Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 116.6 dB.... Low bass (40-63Hz): 125.1 dB.... 20-63 Hz: 121.8 dB
XV15 on Data-Bass : Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 115.2 dB.... Low bass (40-63Hz): 124.0 dB.... 20-63 Hz: 119.6 dB

VTF-15H on Hsu site: Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 115.9 dB.... Low bass (40-63Hz): 122.6 dB... 20-63 Hz: 119.3 dB
VTF-15H on Data-Bass : Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 116.4 dB.... Low bass (40-63Hz): 122.8 dB... 20-63 Hz: 119.6 dB

Notice anything? On PSA site, VX-15's numbers are at least 1.1 - 1.4 dB higher than Data-Bass's numbers, and TV says their numbers are accurate because they are with-in error. Yet VTF-15H's numbers are actually lower than what's on Data-Bass. In fact, if you compare the 20-63 Hz numbers, VTH-15H and VX15 are identical. VTH-15H is a better sub because it performs better in Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz).

Then PSA used XV-15's higher averages and it's competitor's averages, which are more in line with Data-Bass numbers, to determine the PSA Value Factor, and thus giving VX-15 an advantage. PSA Value Factor claims that XV15 is equal to 1.2 VTH-15Hs, when in fact it should be 90% of VTH-15H. None of this would have mattered if VTH-15H is cheaper than VTH-15H.

Also, you see T.V. here defending the flaw of its VX15 driver. When do you ever see someone from Hsu defending VTH-15H's underpowered amp or SVS defending its DSP limiter, and belittling the messenger, call him a troll with an axe to grind?
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post #118 of 138 Old 04-27-2014, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckychuck7 View Post

XV15 on PSA site: Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 116.6 dB.... Low bass (40-63Hz): 125.1 dB.... 20-63 Hz: 121.8 dB
XV15 on Data-Bass : Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 115.2 dB.... Low bass (40-63Hz): 124.0 dB.... 20-63 Hz: 119.6 dB

VTF-15H on Hsu site: Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 115.9 dB.... Low bass (40-63Hz): 122.6 dB... 20-63 Hz: 119.3 dB
VTF-15H on Data-Bass : Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 116.4 dB.... Low bass (40-63Hz): 122.8 dB... 20-63 Hz: 119.6 dB

Notice anything? On PSA site, VX-15's numbers are at least 1.1 - 1.4 dB higher than Data-Bass's numbers, and TV says their numbers are accurate because they are with-in error. Yet VTF-15H's numbers are actually lower than what's on Data-Bass. In fact, if you compare the 20-63 Hz numbers, VTH-15H and VX15 are identical. VTH-15H is a better sub because it performs better in Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz).

Then PSA used XV-15's higher averages and it's competitor's averages, which are more in line with Data-Bass numbers, to determine the PSA Value Factor, and thus giving VX-15 an advantage. PSA Value Factor claims that XV15 is equal to 1.2 VTH-15Hs, when in fact it should be 90% of VTH-15H. None of this would have mattered if VTH-15H is cheaper than VTH-15H.

Also, you see T.V. here defending the flaw of its VX15 driver. When do you ever see someone from Hsu defending VTH-15H's underpowered amp or SVS defending its DSP limiter, and belittling the messenger, call him a troll with an axe to grind?


1)The numbers for the XV15 are lower on the databass site than they would be if the Xv15 was measured the same way the hsu was. Email Josh Ricci and he'll tell you the same thing. We're going to send a current version of the XV15 to Josh soon and the numbers will be significant improved over the data he has there at the moment. So it won't be very long and the real performance of the XV15 will be on data-bass, verified by Josh Ricci, for everyone to see..smile.gif

2)The numbers for the hsu15 are averaged between the three CEA-2010 reports(which were all *very* close) and in maximum extension mode. They bump up about 1dB in max output mode. That is one of the updates we are doing on the website as I type(the vtf-3, fv15hp,and vtf15 will be changed to max output mode. That adds about 1dB to the data more or less.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #119 of 138 Old 04-27-2014, 01:29 PM
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So the subs that basshead owns aren't what you're selling now?

So you've changed the dsp and not the driver?
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post #120 of 138 Old 04-27-2014, 04:33 PM
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Some of you posting in this thread actually take the time an read the header...in the OP....its specific in nature I'd say...so...instead of looking for every single PSA thread and trying to expose them for something sinister but judging by their sales its not working...so please feel free to move....if you have nothing better to add!


Cheers...

Old Indian proverb: We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors, but we borrow it from our children!

Ascend Acoustics Towers,STC(RAAL) & 200 SE in espresso54" of Panny BlissAnthem MRX 300,Sony BDP-S380, Technics CD player & Apple TV....

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