SVS PB-2000 vs PSA XV-15 - how do I decide? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
JakiChan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 812
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 19
I've finally bought a house, and my old CHT-8 is dying, so it's time for a new sub.

The room: 3300cu ft, approximately, in an odd-ish L shape. Open to a smaller hallway (doors kept closed) and the kitchen through a standard doorway. Sub will be in a corner in line with the speakers (on the TV wall, basically).

Current system is:
  • NHT 2.5i fronts
  • NHT SuperOne rears
  • NHT SuperOne Center (to be replaced by an AudioCenter 1 when my new Salamander stand arrives)
  • Denon 3808-CI


Budget: I'm shopping the $800 subs. (The house was expensive. I'm poor now.)

Usage: 50% home theater, 30% gaming, 20% music.

I've narrowed things down to the XV-15 and the PB-2000. They're both in my price range, and the numbers are very similar. I'm surprised than a 12" sub can compete with a 15" sub, but on paper it appears it can.

PB-2000 pros/cons:
  1. Pro: Appearance. It looks more interesting.
  2. Pro: Port fires front. It's been indicated that having the port up against a wall with the XV-15 might be an issue.
  3. Con: Output may not be as high.

XV-15 pros/cons
  1. Pro: Higher output
  2. Con: Rear firing port
  3. Con: Appearance

Just as far as output goes on paper the XV-15 wins. But output isn't the only thing. Both are great companies, 5 year warranties, etc. What other things should I consider to help me make up my mind?
JakiChan is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 02:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 5,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 1402
I think either will be a good choice. The XV15 does offer more headroom above 30hz, but if you are not planning on listening to movies at reference levels then either sub should do well. You can start with the PB2000, if it is not quite enough then you can send it back no charge and go with the XV15.

To touch up on your response about 12" vs 15". Take note driver size is only a small part of the equation. Internal volume of the enclosure means alot more then driver size.

For example, if you look in the diy section, Chalugadp is selling Marty sub flat pack kits for 18" drivers. There is two versions, Full Marty and Marty Cube. LTD posted a graph of the SI-15 slightly out performing the SI-18 in the Marty Cube enclosure, but the 18 wins in the Full Marty.

That being said the PB2000 and XV15 have identical size enclosures. The XV15 is actually the smallest ported 15" ID sub available. If it had utilized more internal volume, it would put out even more, but there is a fine line on what is considered too big..both the PB2000 and XV15 are at the limits for most. Here at AVS most of us do not care about size, but we are just a small percentage. You have to build what sells and 10cf enclosures would not sell to the majority.
eljaycanuck likes this.
basshead81 is offline  
post #3 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 02:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kini62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,928
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 329
Obviously the best option would be to order both, compare them and send the one you don't want back.

Also, PSA is going to have a price increase coming up so better not wait too long if you're leaning in that direction.

Klipsch RF-62II, RC-500, RS-400, SVS PC12+,
Def Tech SC8000
Harman Kardon AVR 1600
PS3, Apple TV, Sharp 70" Qattron
Kini62 is offline  
post #4 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 03:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
eljaycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,183
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 487
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 
I think either will be a good choice. The XV15 does offer more headroom above 30hz, but if you are not planning on listening to movies at reference levels then either sub should do well. You can start with the PB2000, if it is not quite enough then you can send it back no charge and go with the XV15.
+1.
eljaycanuck is offline  
post #5 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 04:57 PM
Senior Member
 
madhuski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Would anyone argue that the average person would really notices any difference between the subs in real world listening?

Check out my WAF approved living room theater

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1526916/my...-1-living-room
madhuski is online now  
post #6 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 05:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,510
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 494
I would go with the PB2000. If it has kept its predecessor's clean distortion profile, it will sound substantially better than the XV15 for deep bass. The XV15 will only have more output because of a peakish frequency response at 50 Hz. In other words, its output advantage comes exclusively at the cost of accuracy. I would rather have a flat response and clean deep bass than lots of bass at 50 Hz and middling performance everywhere else.
shadyJ is offline  
post #7 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 05:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 2,447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 149 Post(s)
Liked: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I would go with the PB2000. If it has kept its predecessor's clean distortion profile, it will sound substantially better than the XV15 for deep bass. The XV15 will only have more output because of a peakish frequency response at 50 Hz. In other words, its output advantage comes exclusively at the cost of accuracy. I would rather have a flat response and clean deep bass than lots of bass at 50 Hz and middling performance everywhere else.

Just playing Devil's advocate here Shady, but don't you think PSA could have applied a simple bit of DSP limiting at this 50 Hz peak, toned output down by 2-3 dB at this frequency and gotten a perfectly flat response like another manufacturer does?  Do you think this would have made the design better?

 

Also, the frequency response peak you are referring to is actually a peak in the max burst output capability, and not the frequency response, which is actually fairly flat.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

bear123 is offline  
post #8 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 06:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,510
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 494
I don't think simply squashing the 50 Hz peak would make it a better or worse sub. The problem is the mechanical limits of the driver, not the equalization. Look what happens when the sub is pushed in the low 20 Hz region and below. Above 80 Hz it gets a bit ugly too, so this isn't a great sub to run over an 80 Hz crossover, which is usually a nice benefit of running multiples. The XV15 can not even make a good mid bass module due to creeping upper bass distortion although that won't affect most users. . And according to PSA this sub is 1.5x a PB2000? 1.8x a VTF3? 1.2x a VTF15h!? The chutzpah here is really something to admire.

You are correct that the burst output response and the basic response are two different things.
shadyJ is offline  
post #9 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 07:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 5,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I would go with the PB2000. If it has kept its predecessor's clean distortion profile, it will sound substantially better than the XV15 for deep bass. The XV15 will only have more output because of a peakish frequency response at 50 Hz. In other words, its output advantage comes exclusively at the cost of accuracy. I would rather have a flat response and clean deep bass than lots of bass at 50 Hz and middling performance everywhere else.

So what is your agenda now? You went from supposedly only knocking PSA subs when somebody said they were better then x sub, to flapping your gums in any thread where PSA is mentioned. The 50hz peak is not that big of a issue its not like everybody is playing thier sub a max output in a ground plane enviroment with test tones. There are several subs on data bass that have a big peak in the base and burst response. Look at the DD18+,eq max 15, ed-a7, look at the god dam PB13 in 20hz at max burst( it is even down 3db from from 50-125hz). Atleast The XV15 has a flat base response compared to the above mentioned (minus the PB13).

Mark Seaton put you in your place earlier but yet you try to redirect that convo and bow out to "supposedly" give the op his thread back. Anybody with half a brain can see right thru you.

Get over the PSA chart already...you whine like a little girl over something that is purely marketing. You actually think you are getting back at Tom by posting this same repetitive garbage? I bet he laughs on his way to the Bank every time he reads your posts.
basshead81 is offline  
post #10 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 09:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,510
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 494
Lol, who cares about me, or my agenda, or whatever, none of that matters. I really did exit that other thread to keep it it about the OP and not me, but any discussion about that is side-tracking this thread anyway. The OP asked for a comparison, so I gave the OP a brief, candid comparison based on the available data. I'm not a big fan of PSA, but I am not lying about anything, I am not deliberately misinforming anyone, and hopefully the OP is better informed for the input I offered. Now that I have done that, I will bow out if this thread, so no need for any drama.
shadyJ is offline  
post #11 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
JakiChan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 812
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 19
One thing I did like is that the PSA is made here in the USA and the SVS is not. I can understand the idea of the SVS being more "accurate", but I'm not sure I'd hear the difference. I toyed with the idea of ordering both, but to be honest I doubt I'd be able to make up my mind. i'm leaning more towards the PSA at the moment, for both output and made in the USA factor - I wish I had more data on the "accuracy" of the PB 2000.
JakiChan is offline  
post #12 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
JakiChan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 812
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 19
And what happens if I throw a Rythmik F15 in the mix? I know it's a sealed sub, so I suppose it's not a fully valid comparison. I'm just looking for the best ID sub < $1000.
JakiChan is offline  
post #13 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 09:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 5,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 1402
That is fine and you are entitled to your opinion...but choose how you share your opinion wisely. I am not a huge fan of HSU for certain reasons, but do I go out of my way to push somebody a different direction or point out the things I particularly do not like? No I do not...I have no problem recomending anything HSU because they do make a good product and everybody wants and needs are different. This is where you need to work on your tact...what you think is important in comparing data does not make it right. It is your opinion and that is all it is. Routinely repeating the fact you do not like PSA drivers and they are poor performing on a regular basis with out a doubt proves you do have some kind of agenda or grudge. I was almost convinced otherwise untill you started doing this in every thread where PSA mentioned.

Mark Seaton pointed out your flaws with the way you compare data and push it down the throats of others that may not know any better.

There is a reason why the first thing you see when clicking on data-bass.com/systems is max burst output. This performance measure is the most accurate when comparing with source content. Long term power compression does not, and 2nd and 3rd order thd is not a huge issue. I am not saying they have no merit but it is not nearly as big of issue as you try and make it. I believe there is a reason why cea2010 allows so much thd(35%) as passing.

I am not trying to change your opinion. If a thread comes up when somebody asks about the XV15 or PB2000, simply state you prefer the PB2000 because a more linear response and lower thd below 30hz is more important to you and move on. This constant calling PSA drivers crap and poor performing needs to end one way or another.
oneeyeblind, Jahjd2000 and defmoot like this.
basshead81 is offline  
post #14 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 10:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 5,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 1402
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

And what happens if I throw a Rythmik F15 in the mix? I know it's a sealed sub, so I suppose it's not a fully valid comparison. I'm just looking for the best ID sub < $1000.

It is more then 1000.00 after shipping but a well regarded sub. I would say it would be similar to a XV15 in output except around the port tune. It does have a peq and q control on the amp to taylor the bass to your liking. I would probably stick with a ported sub in your size room. The HSU VTF-15 can be had for 1070.00 shipped...that is a great sub with a lot of features.
basshead81 is offline  
post #15 of 138 Old 04-15-2014, 10:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,510
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 494
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

That is fine and you are entitled to your opinion...but choose how you share your opinion wisely. I am not a huge fan of HSU for certain reasons, but do I go out of my way to push somebody a different direction or point out the things I particularly do not like? No I do not...I have no problem recomending anything HSU because they do make a good product and everybody wants and needs are different. This is where you need to work on your tact...what you think is important in comparing data does not make it right. It is your opinion and that is all it is. Routinely repeating the fact you do not like PSA drivers and they are poor performing on a regular basis with out a doubt proves you do have some kind of agenda or grudge. I was almost convinced otherwise untill you started doing this in every thread where PSA mentioned.

Mark Seaton pointed out your flaws with the way you compare data and push it down the throats of others that may not know any better.

There is a reason why the first thing you see when clicking on data-bass.com/systems is max burst output. This performance measure is the most accurate when comparing with source content. Long term power compression does not, and 2nd and 3rd order thd is not a huge issue. I am not saying they have no merit but it is not nearly as big of issue as you try and make it. I believe there is a reason why cea2010 allows so much thd(35%) as passing.

I am not trying to change your opinion. If a thread comes up when somebody asks about the XV15 or PB2000, simply state you prefer the PB2000 because a more linear response and lower thd below 30hz is more important to you and move on. This constant calling PSA drivers crap and poor performing needs to end one way or another.

Ugh, I know I said I was out of this thread, but I will say just a couple more things. One of the reasons why I do not use more tact when discussing their subs is because they do not use tact in marketing their subs. You don't see Hsu or Rythmik or any other sub company trashing competing subs in a cherry-picked, loaded comparison in order to make a sale. I have addressed many of your other points in other posts. Any further discussion on this matter should be taken to a PM, not this thread. One more thing, the VTF15h is $1022 shipped, not $1070.
shadyJ is offline  
post #16 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 04:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rnatalli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,739
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 83
I'd go with SVS myself, but either will do the job.
rnatalli is offline  
post #17 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 05:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Brian Fineberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,974
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked: 451
please note that shadyJ has not heard either the pb2000 or the xv15....his "thoughts" are useless

Panasonic 65VT30 | Denon x4000 | Emotiva XPA-5 | Emotiva XSP-1 | Emotiva DC-1 | PSB imagine B's |PSB image c5 | PSB B4's | DUAL PSA XS30 | OPPO 103 | minidsp

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-general-home-theater-media-game-rooms/1596161-sadiemax-theater-build-thread.html
Brian Fineberg is online now  
post #18 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 05:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JT78681's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 114 Post(s)
Liked: 137
I would definitely stick with ported in that size room. All of the below are solid choices at your price point. I would recommend Rythmik too, but the FV15HP exceeds your price range and the LV12R might not be enough in that size room.

HSU VTF-15H
HSU VTF-3 MK4
Outlaw LFM-1 EX (Great sub I used to have one)
SVS PB-2000
PSA XV15
Reaction Audio BPS 215 (This would be a gamble as they are fairly new and not really any info yet on them)

Receiver - Denon 1713
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
JT78681 is offline  
post #19 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 09:03 AM
Senior Member
 
Lecter83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: España / Asturias - Gijón
Posts: 377
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I don't think simply squashing the 50 Hz peak would make it a better or worse sub. The problem is the mechanical limits of the driver, not the equalization. Look what happens when the sub is pushed in the low 20 Hz region and below. Above 80 Hz it gets a bit ugly too, so this isn't a great sub to run over an 80 Hz crossover, which is usually a nice benefit of running multiples. The XV15 can not even make a good mid bass module due to creeping upper bass distortion although that won't affect most users. . And according to PSA this sub is 1.5x a PB2000? 1.8x a VTF3? 1.2x a VTF15h!? The chutzpah here is really something to admire.

You are correct that the burst output response and the basic response are two different things.

Most of the harmonic distortion XV15 is 2nd order.
This means that it is not audible, I challenge you face to face (sorry for the distance) to check this for yourself.

Wear time reading and always supports the distortion, I think you have a misconception about this.

I agree that the marketing method of PSA is not the most appropriate, but no we will make this a drama.

In addition, the data obtained in the CEA-2010 test are excellent in that price range.
Lecter83 is offline  
post #20 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 11:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,510
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 494
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lecter83 View Post

Most of the harmonic distortion XV15 is 2nd order. This means that it is not audible, I challenge you face to face (sorry for the distance) to check this for yourself.

I have checked this myself. 2nd order THD is definitely audible at these frequencies. Generate a 20 Hz tone in an audio editor and then boost the loudness of that tone by 1.012 dB with a 40 Hz tone. That will give you 10% second order harmonic distortion of the fundamental. It is quite audible and it is not a subtle difference. Note the sub you are defending hits nearly 30% THD at 20 Hz, and almost 40% at 17 Hz.
shadyJ is offline  
post #21 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 11:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Liked: 722
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

please note that shadyJ has not heard either the pb2000 or the xv15....his "thoughts" are useless

It may also be worth noting that the maximum output limits of each product measured per the industry standard CEA-2010 protocol already have distortion limits in place. CEA-2010 was developed to measure the maximum clean output of each product using input signals similar to music and film. The distortion limits are based on many scientific experiments that have been published in various AES papers and include peer review from the most respected minds in the industry. Much of the discussion regarding "distortion" in this thread is misguided at best and often just plain wrong. The focus should be on what amount of distortion will be audible when listening to film and music. CEA-2010 has already covered this. If someone is worried about distortion audibility with test tones that is sort of like saying....I only care about the 0-100pmh performance of a new Corvette when there is a foot of snow on the road. In either example it is a very poor way to judge the product quality.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Tom Vodhanel is offline  
post #22 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 11:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,510
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 494
Well that settles that then, I guess distortion is just fine. I suppose its a good thing, because it saves me the trouble of buying a decent subwoofer. Strange though, how most subwoofer manufacturers try to reduce distortion from their product; little do they know they are wasting their time.
shadyJ is offline  
post #23 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 12:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Liked: 722
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Well that settles that then, I guess distortion is just fine. I suppose its a good thing, because it saves me the trouble of buying a decent subwoofer. Strange though, how most subwoofer manufacturers try to reduce distortion from their product; little do they know they are wasting their time.

Nice strawman mentality here shady. You cannot argue against my comments so you invent your own strawman to debate.

1)I never said or implied "distortion is just fine" in any manner. Instead I explained why someone looking at CEA-2010 data should understand there are already distortion limits in place. And these limits are based on many years of peer reviewed research by the most respected minds in the industry. This may carry a little more weight than someone hiding behind the veil of anonymity posting a conflicting POV that seems to be based on nothing except a desire to target one manufacturer's products because of a personal grudge. I could be mistaken of course, anyone following along can decide for themselves.

2)I would think a product that wins "product of the year" at audioholics and received a very positive review from Josh Ricci and Brent Butterworth would be considered "decent" by most.

http://www.audioholics.com/product-awards/2012-product-of-year
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/2013-top-picks-year

Again, opinions may vary of course.

3)Of course all manufacturers attempt to reduce distortions. But by and large the focus is on the AUDIBILITY of these distortions. That is my entire point in the previous post. Should the consumer be worried about distortions that WON'T be audible with source material (music or film) ....OR....should they be worried about distortions that WILL be audible. Simple question really. I vote for the latter. And the CEA-2010 measurement protocol is based on some of the most intensive research in the area that I'm aware of. I'd love to see actual evidence that the CEA-2010 standards are incorrect. But the main argument simply seems to be....the standards should be devalued because the XV15 scored very well?

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Tom Vodhanel is offline  
post #24 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 12:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mercury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: howell,nj
Posts: 3,540
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

I've finally bought a house, and my old CHT-8 is dying, so it's time for a new sub.

The room: 3300cu ft, approximately, in an odd-ish L shape. Open to a smaller hallway (doors kept closed) and the kitchen through a standard doorway. Sub will be in a corner in line with the speakers (on the TV wall, basically).

Current system is:
  • NHT 2.5i fronts
  • NHT SuperOne rears
  • NHT SuperOne Center (to be replaced by an AudioCenter 1 when my new Salamander stand arrives)
  • Denon 3808-CI


Budget: I'm shopping the $800 subs. (The house was expensive. I'm poor now.)

Usage: 50% home theater, 30% gaming, 20% music.

I've narrowed things down to the XV-15 and the PB-2000. They're both in my price range, and the numbers are very similar. I'm surprised than a 12" sub can compete with a 15" sub, but on paper it appears it can.

PB-2000 pros/cons:
  1. Pro: Appearance. It looks more interesting.
  2. Pro: Port fires front. It's been indicated that having the port up against a wall with the XV-15 might be an issue.
  3. Con: Output may not be as high.

XV-15 pros/cons
  1. Pro: Higher output
  2. Con: Rear firing port
  3. Con: Appearance

Just as far as output goes on paper the XV-15 wins. But output isn't the only thing. Both are great companies, 5 year warranties, etc. What other things should I consider to help me make up my mind?


PSA XV-15....

Panasonic 65" plasma*

Denon 4520* 

PSB T45* PSB B15* PSB C60*

Dual PSA XS30* Dual PSA XS15se*

Squeezbox*

Niles ZR-6 6 Source, 6 room Audio Reciever*

mercury is offline  
post #25 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
JakiChan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 812
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

I would definitely stick with ported in that size room. All of the below are solid choices at your price point. I would recommend Rythmik too, but the FV15HP exceeds your price range and the LV12R might not be enough in that size room.

The FV15HP is on back order, and they didn't indicate how long. I tried to talk myself into waiting, and spending the money. The piano black would look very nice with my NHTs. But they seem to be having trouble keep things in stock.

After doing a value analysis I figured I try out the XV15. It's on its way. One reason was yesterday, when I talked to Tom, he was super nice. The SVS guys were nice too. But I was like "Wow, this epic sub builder is taking the time to talk to me like I'm not an idiot. That's very nice."

Now I just wish I didn't have to wait until next Tuesday...
mercury likes this.
JakiChan is offline  
post #26 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 12:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mercury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: howell,nj
Posts: 3,540
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

The FV15HP is on back order, and they didn't indicate how long. I tried to talk myself into waiting, and spending the money. The piano black would look very nice with my NHTs. But they seem to be having trouble keep things in stock.

After doing a value analysis I figured I try out the XV15. It's on its way. One reason was yesterday, when I talked to Tom, he was super nice. The SVS guys were nice too. But I was like "Wow, this epic sub builder is taking the time to talk to me like I'm not an idiot. That's very nice."

Now I just wish I didn't have to wait until next Tuesday...


Keep in mind that epic sub builder as you say is the V is sVs........ lol

great choice.

Panasonic 65" plasma*

Denon 4520* 

PSB T45* PSB B15* PSB C60*

Dual PSA XS30* Dual PSA XS15se*

Squeezbox*

Niles ZR-6 6 Source, 6 room Audio Reciever*

mercury is offline  
post #27 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
JakiChan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 812
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post

Keep in mind that epic sub builder as you say is the V is sVs........ lol

I knew that even before he told me. smile.gif

Now I'll just have to decide if I need a second one before the price goes up....
mercury likes this.
JakiChan is offline  
post #28 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 02:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,510
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 494
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Nice strawman mentality here shady. You cannot argue against my comments so you invent your own strawman to debate.

1)I never said or implied "distortion is just fine" in any manner. Instead I explained why someone looking at CEA-2010 data should understand there are already distortion limits in place. And these limits are based on many years of peer reviewed research by the most respected minds in the industry. This may carry a little more weight than someone hiding behind the veil of anonymity posting a conflicting POV that seems to be based on nothing except a desire to target one manufacturer's products because of a personal grudge. I could be mistaken of course, anyone following along can decide for themselves.

2)I would think a product that wins "product of the year" at audioholics and received a very positive review from Josh Ricci and Brent Butterworth would be considered "decent" by most.

http://www.audioholics.com/product-awards/2012-product-of-year
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/2013-top-picks-year

Again, opinions may vary of course.

3)Of course all manufacturers attempt to reduce distortions. But by and large the focus is on the AUDIBILITY of these distortions. That is my entire point in the previous post. Should the consumer be worried about distortions that WON'T be audible with source material (music or film) ....OR....should they be worried about distortions that WILL be audible. Simple question really. I vote for the latter. And the CEA-2010 measurement protocol is based on some of the most intensive research in the area that I'm aware of. I'd love to see actual evidence that the CEA-2010 standards are incorrect. But the main argument simply seems to be....the standards should be devalued because the XV15 scored very well?

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Your post implies that whatever distortion is within CEA thresholds is not a problem. So you are saying 35% THD is not a problem? because that is what CEA permits. Within CEA limits, 35% of the sound produced by your sub is not even the fundamental. Call me old-fashioned, but I always though loudspeakers were intended to be sound reproducers, not producers of their own sound. What's more is CEA does not account for the equal loudness contour. Given the very steep curve of hearing sensitivity at the subwoofer frequencies, you would think that it would, seeing as how the audibility of harmonic distortion is exacerbated as the frequencies get deeper. In fact, 35% THD at the frequencies your own product manages to hit would be heard as much louder than the fundamental. But hey, what do I know, I am just an anonymous guy with a grudge. Nevermind that those distortion limits are easily audible and can be demonstrated as such by anyone with an audio editor and a halfway decent subwoofer.

As for Ricci and Butterworth, while we are appealing to authority here, it should also be mentioned that both of them have mentioned in the past that CEA2010 alone is inadequate for assessing a subwoofer's performance, which also seems to be a sentiment your industry colleagues agree with. Yet you seem to pin CEA as the sole metric by which subs should be judged? You are welcome to do so, and it is no mystery why you would want to. You create the appearance of good CEA measurements for your products on your subwoofer comparison guide by using averaged scores and then grabbing whatever measurements are available from the competition for comparison, no matter who, how, when, or where those tests were conducted. Your compare these subs out to a tenth of a decibel, for which it is nowhere near precise enough. Here is a relevant quote regarding that matter:
Quote:
I can easily get 1 or 2 dB variation just moving around our parking lot... I guarantee you that you could see ±2 dB variability in those measurements if they’re done by different people with different gear in different environments.
Given that, you somehow think its fair to compare measurements from four different testers in different parts of the country with different equipment out to a tenth of a decibel? If that is what you regard as fair play, how do we know that you haven't just measured your own subs a hundred times and are using the best scores, which would give your subs a big advantage in your comparisons? Given the improper adjustments you made to the Ricci's measurements on the XV15's product page, I don't see what's stopping you, after all, none of your other subs have been submitted to third party testing. Who knows, maybe you guys are just too busy over there to open yourselves up to that level of transparency, however it looks just a tiny bit like a double standard when you promote your own subs at the expense of others after they actually had the willingness to open up their product's performance for public inspection. I don't blame manufacturers' reticence to submit their subs to testers who use the CEA protocol when those measurements will invariably be misused like how you have done.

While we are on the subject of your admiration for the CEA protocol, why wouldn't you post the full CEA measurement set as mandated by the protocol? Is it because it reveals an embarrassing truth about the shape of the burst response of your subwoofers? Here we have another double standard; you are willing to compare your products to others out to a tenth of a decibel for your 'value factor' but you won't compare them for individual frequencies? There are only six frequencies in question! Did you run out of web space and couldn't fit in all those extra numbers? For whatever merits CEA2010 testing has, your arguments stand neither on or off those grounds.
shadyJ is offline  
post #29 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 02:41 PM
Member
 
Timokreon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 49
I'll remind everyone, including JakiChan, that the "ignore" button is a wonderful feature of AVS. smile.gif

From someone who has a terrible xv-15 wink.gif I think you'll like it very much. lol smile.gif
Anthony Cler likes this.
Timokreon is offline  
post #30 of 138 Old 04-16-2014, 03:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 2,447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 149 Post(s)
Liked: 663

Shady, for what it is worth, your approach causes people to dismiss your arguments rather than consider them, even though some of them may merit some consideration if you were to present your thoughts in a less combative way.  If you put your mind to it, I would be willing to bet people would discuss your observations rather than passing you off as a grudge holder.

 

Think of it this way....if you try to force feed a spoonful of who knows what down someones throat, what will they do?  Close their mouth and turn their head away.  Case closed.  If you hold the spoon out in front of them and let them see it, smell it, they are likely to take a bite to see if they like it.

 

Personally, I try to openly consider peoples comments regardless if I initially agree or not.

 

Having looked at a fair number of the tested subs on data-bass, I agree with the points you make about some of PSA's subs having higher distortion than some others listed.  I see moderately priced DIY drivers with very impressive performance in comparison.

 

Does this matter?  Maybe not, they seem to sound good to all the owners I have seen post about them.  I have yet to see any new owner make a statement such as "dang, I was watching the War of the Worlds pod scene, and the output seemed pretty strong, but, I just couldn't get past all the distortion I was hearing.  Therefore, I have decided to return my sub and get a SVS instead"  I also have not read a review, even the well respected ones, in which anyone claimed anything other than a good clean sounding product.

 

Do owners tend to be biased about the products they own?  Of course.  On the other hand, I have seen LOTS of svs posts in which people got their new sub and were dissatisfied with the output and traded it in for a bigger model.

 

Given all of this, and despite the fact that I have become a recent happy owner of a PSA sub, I do have to wonder why they did not make efforts to design a driver that puts out lower distortion considering there are moderately priced options that seem to do so quite well on the DIY side.  I am not a speaker designer.  Perhaps the results they have achieved give the best bang for the buck and doing things differently would have increased cost or lowered output, I have no clue.

 

What I do know is that, again, they way you present your arguments puts people into defense mode.  Instead of hearing your arguments and being willing to consider and discuss them, they dismiss them.

 

Subjectively, I can say that I am happy with all aspects of my sub, from both output and sound quality.  I have had a sub from a manufacturer known for their very low distortion profile in the same room as my PSA sub, and I can't say I noticed anything in the sound quality department.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

bear123 is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers
Gear in this thread - PB-2000 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off