What gives more bass, smaller room or bigger sub? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 55 Old 04-15-2014, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
DNZone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Moving from a 4000 cubic ft basement with a single SVS pb12 nsd to a 1400 cubic foot room which i plan on buying a Pb10 1000.

As I understand it, they both have nearly identical bass extensions. I would assume the biggest difference would output.

Considering how much smaller the place is, will i get similar performance out of my pb1000 compared to the NSDs 12" drivers?
DNZone is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 55 Old 04-15-2014, 02:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fatbottom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 3,734
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 385 Post(s)
Liked: 178
In a smaller room sealed works better. I went from PC Ultra 13 to SB Ultra 13 for a small room, much better. although it's only 300 square feet. So sounds pretty amazing heh.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

fatbottom is offline  
post #3 of 55 Old 04-15-2014, 02:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kini62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,954
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 336
IMO a PB1000 in a room that much smaller will feel like MUCH more output than the PB12 did in that large room.
DNZone likes this.

Klipsch RF-62II, RC-500, RS-400, SVS PC12+,
Def Tech SC8000
Harman Kardon AVR 1600
PS3, Apple TV, Sharp 70" Qattron
Kini62 is offline  
post #4 of 55 Old 04-15-2014, 02:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1340
Output per se is unaffected by room size. What changes is that a smaller room has more cabin gain. Unless the room is really small, as in a car, cabin gain has little effect above 40Hz. But it can result in as much as 12dB or so boost at 20Hz and below. So while going to a smaller room will result in a much fatter low end, it won't do much at the upper end of the sub bass pass band. If it was me I would not be downsizing the driver. What you would be able to do is go to sealed, to reduce the cab size.
defmoot, bumprunlogan and DNZone like this.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #5 of 55 Old 04-15-2014, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
DNZone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Thanks it sounds like i will be very happy with a single pb1000.

Why are there so many recommendations for sealed subs? I hear the main difference is size. but for games and movies you lose out a lit because it cuts off around 24 hz instead of 19 hz. i cant afford the expensive ones so really, im talking about the sb1000.

I will be in china btw, so i am super limited by price. There is no used market that i know of like audiogon or canuckaudiomart. cheapest NSD i found was about $1250... could by an ultra for that price here.

If anyone is aware of better cost performance chinese woofers, plz let me know.
DNZone is offline  
post #6 of 55 Old 04-15-2014, 03:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fatbottom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 3,734
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 385 Post(s)
Liked: 178
Each sub type has pros and cons, google search them. But from my own experience, keeping it simple

Small room = sealed
Larger room = ported

There is more to it than that ie for a larger room you can get sealed, if it's a music system. Of course you can have a larger room with sealed but you'd probably need two of the same, compared to one of the ported models (comparing say one range with the same exact driver, just in different cabinet)

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

fatbottom is offline  
post #7 of 55 Old 04-15-2014, 03:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1340
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNZone View Post

Why are there so many recommendations for sealed subs?
There's a pervasive myth that they sound better. They don't. In blind testing adjusted for the same frequency response you can't tell which is which. Ported are somewhat more demanding of correct set up, and cheap ported subs can sound boomy. But that's not because they're ported, it's because they're cheap. I'd venture that 90% of those who insist that sealed are better just haven't heard a well engineered ported sub that's been correctly set up for the room.
oztech, spidey.joe80 and Farley1 like this.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #8 of 55 Old 04-15-2014, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
DNZone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I didn't want to bring up the debate myself. I don't really believe that sealed subs are more musical. to me there is no reason to buy a sealed sub except for size. I don't have the golden years. to me they are just inferior in
Performance. I was curious as to if there was any other reason why I should get them in a smaller room.
DNZone is offline  
post #9 of 55 Old 04-15-2014, 03:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fatbottom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 3,734
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 385 Post(s)
Liked: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNZone View Post

I didn't want to bring up the debate myself. I don't really believe that sealed subs are more musical. to me there is no reason to buy a sealed sub except for size. I don't have the golden years. to me they are just inferior in
Performance. I was curious as to if there was any other reason why I should get them in a smaller room.

I've had

SVS SB12+
SVS PC Plus 20-39
SVS PC Ultra 13
SVS SB Ultra 13

for the home theatre settled with the SB Ultra 13. For the Hi-Fi, SB12+

The ported models go louder, but to me, the SB sound better. The ported models just seems to shake the house but not really much else higher up. My room is tiny though, that's probably why.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

fatbottom is offline  
post #10 of 55 Old 04-15-2014, 07:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1340
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNZone View Post

I was curious as to if there was any other reason why I should get them in a smaller room.
There's only one reason to get them for a smaller room, and that's because you can. A sealed sub in a room with a longest dimension of 15 feet will deliver like a ported sub in a room with a longest dimension of 25 feet, so since you're able to go with the smaller sealed you might as well. Conversely a ported sub in a small room might actually have too strong a low end. That's not an issue if you have measuring gear to see the response, and EQ gear to correct it, but most users don't. Not having the ability to realize flat in-room response is the number one reason for dissatisfaction with otherwise high quality subs. For instance, if it seems that the ported is lacking in the upper end of its range, it isn't. It just seems that way if the low end is too much for the room, and you have no way to identify and fix the problem.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #11 of 55 Old 04-15-2014, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
DNZone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Ah that makes sense. will be something i have to consider. thanks.
DNZone is offline  
post #12 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 05:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
flickhtguru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Lebanon, PA
Posts: 2,458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 105
Why not just keep the PB12 NSD and use that til it dies???

Shawn
flickhtguru is offline  
post #13 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 06:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Reefdvr27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Coral Gables, Florida
Posts: 2,548
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 393 Post(s)
Liked: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNZone View Post

Thanks it sounds like i will be very happy with a single pb1000.

Why are there so many recommendations for sealed subs? I hear the main difference is size. but for games and movies you lose out a lit because it cuts off around 24 hz instead of 19 hz. i cant afford the expensive ones so really, im talking about the sb1000.

I will be in china btw, so i am super limited by price. There is no used market that i know of like audiogon or canuckaudiomart. cheapest NSD i found was about $1250... could by an ultra for that price here.

If anyone is aware of better cost performance chinese woofers, plz let me know.
I would wait till you get over there, who knows what you will find there. I know the first thing I would do is get a stack of FP1400 clone amps and build a few 18" DO sealed subs. biggrin.gif

My System

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


My dedicated theater room build. 

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reefdvr27 is online now  
post #14 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
DNZone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
speaking of DIY can anyone tell me what this is?

http://h5.m.taobao.com/awp/core/detail.htm?id=10522204818&spm=0.0.0.0&rn=8L78WwNB2-2PNRK5yqWhTu3VJ1GB-p2icbbO-Xsjo1&sid=874b985451aeb2b4&abtest=2&bagtype=

can't read Chinese but it says something about DIY subs and is the only thing that shows up when I enter Hsu VTF on taobao.

if anyone can tell me whether that is a vtf2 on sale for $250, please let me know!! seems like its DIY. Does Hsu research sell parts for DIY?
DNZone is offline  
post #15 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 08:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1340
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNZone View Post

speaking of DIY can anyone tell me what this is?
Be very careful of Chinese speakers. You can buy almost perfect knockoffs, visually anyway, of any speaker made, all counterfeit. For example:
http://www.paaudio.net/paroyal-products.asp?id=120
The line array speakers on this page are JBL counterfeits, right down to the model number.
DNZone likes this.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #16 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 02:13 PM
Member
 
Calypte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Anza, CA
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNZone View Post

speaking of DIY can anyone tell me what this is?

http://h5.m.taobao.com/awp/core/detail.htm?id=10522204818&spm=0.0.0.0&rn=8L78WwNB2-2PNRK5yqWhTu3VJ1GB-p2icbbO-Xsjo1&sid=874b985451aeb2b4&abtest=2&bagtype=

can't read Chinese but it says something about DIY subs and is the only thing that shows up when I enter Hsu VTF on taobao.

if anyone can tell me whether that is a vtf2 on sale for $250, please let me know!! seems like its DIY. Does Hsu research sell parts for DIY?
Why not ask Hsu directly?
Calypte is offline  
post #17 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 02:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calypte View Post

Why not ask Hsu directly?
Safe bet he'll tell you that he doesn't export subs to China and sell them for less there than he does here.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #18 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 04:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 2,461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 672

Since they are made in China maybe you can get a real Hsu before they get shipped to the States and save on shipping?  Might be worth a call to Hsu to find out.  No sense shipping it to the States from China then back again, although they are not likely set up to distribute from their Chinese manufacturing facility.

DNZone likes this.

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

bear123 is offline  
post #19 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 04:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JHAz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNZone View Post

Moving from a 4000 cubic ft basement with a single SVS pb12 nsd to a 1400 cubic foot room which i plan on buying a Pb10 1000.

As I understand it, they both have nearly identical bass extensions. I would assume the biggest difference would output.

Considering how much smaller the place is, will i get similar performance out of my pb1000 compared to the NSDs 12" drivers?

why change subs at all? the more competent sub will either be better (reducing distortion at high levels that you might not have even noticed) or just as good as the new sub, and all you can do is lose money on the old one to move to the new one
JHAz is online now  
post #20 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
DNZone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
makes absolutely no sense to bring to China. cost $600 to take it as luggage. that I have to take his luggage around with me along with all my other stuff just makes it a complete waste of my energy.
DNZone is offline  
post #21 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 04:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JHAz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Ah, missed the china ref (kinda a big deal) halfway through the thread . . .

if you could know you could do (or have done) some woodworking, I'd consider bringing an appropriate Eminence or other commercial bass driver because I'd expect nothing will be cheap to get (for real) over there. Although if you happen upon a real rolex daytona for 200 bucks, I'll gladly give you $400 for it and pay shipping . . . .

OTOH, if you're going to be in an apartment, fear the bass. The lower it goes, the less you can control it (and soundproofing is entirely different from, more intrusive than and WAY more expensive than bass trapping for in-room sound). So you could spend a bunch of bucks to get bass capability that you simply cannot turn on in your real living situation. People over there have samurai swords for real, the way I hear it.
DNZone likes this.
JHAz is online now  
post #22 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
DNZone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
yes I understand that any SVS sub might be already way too much subwoofer for where I'm staying. in fact my room might end up being less than 1000 ft.²

I would love a good suggestion for a room of that size. I know SVS doesn't really make subs in the $300 range though so are there any really good subwoofers for $300 that will give you all the base I need for an apartment?
DNZone is offline  
post #23 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 08:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JHAz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Neighbors problems are not about in room volume. If the sub is making 40 hz tones they will be just as strong next door or upstairs or downstairs as in your room unless the structure is unusual.

Weak enough to not bother neighbors might mean weak enough to be inaudible in your room.
DNZone likes this.
JHAz is online now  
post #24 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 11:17 PM
Member
 
ben805's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Ah, missed the china ref (kinda a big deal) halfway through the thread . . .

if you could know you could do (or have done) some woodworking, I'd consider bringing an appropriate Eminence or other commercial bass driver because I'd expect nothing will be cheap to get (for real) over there. Although if you happen upon a real rolex daytona for 200 bucks, I'll gladly give you $400 for it and pay shipping . . . .

OTOH, if you're going to be in an apartment, fear the bass. The lower it goes, the less you can control it (and soundproofing is entirely different from, more intrusive than and WAY more expensive than bass trapping for in-room sound). So you could spend a bunch of bucks to get bass capability that you simply cannot turn on in your real living situation. People over there have samurai swords for real, the way I hear it.


He can bring just the amp and woofer along to China, and have an enclosure made locally for cheap. smile.gif
DNZone likes this.
ben805 is offline  
post #25 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
DNZone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12

Well the NSD is already sold so I can't get that again. There is a VTF3 MK1 used. Its a very interesting idea and I am really considering it right now. However, my problem is that the subs available to me at a good price for now are both with modular ports. Getting a basic enclosure in China would be easy. Not sure if it is just as easy to get something with two ports that can be easily sealed. 

 

I also have no idea how much the drivers + amp weighs.

 

Thats an extremely helpful suggestion though! Thanks for that.

DNZone is offline  
post #26 of 55 Old 04-16-2014, 11:57 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
DNZone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
 

Since they are made in China maybe you can get a real Hsu before they get shipped to the States and save on shipping?  Might be worth a call to Hsu to find out.  No sense shipping it to the States from China then back again, although they are not likely set up to distribute from their Chinese manufacturing facility.

Yeah this suggestion doesn't sound likely. There are a lot of things made in China that never get distributed there. I could ask though, never know what could happen!

DNZone is offline  
post #27 of 55 Old 04-17-2014, 05:14 AM
Member
 
thisismyname123's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 123
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

Each sub type has pros and cons, google search them. But from my own experience, keeping it simple

Small room = sealed
Larger room = ported

There is more to it than that ie for a larger room you can get sealed, if it's a music system. Of course you can have a larger room with sealed but you'd probably need two of the same, compared to one of the ported models (comparing say one range with the same exact driver, just in different cabinet)

Can you define small room vs. large room? My room is about 2500 ft3 with a few openings into other rooms. I'm thinking about 2 sealed Reaction 212 turbos.....
thisismyname123 is offline  
post #28 of 55 Old 04-17-2014, 05:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fatbottom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 3,734
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 385 Post(s)
Liked: 178
According to SVS

>2400 sq ft large
1400-2400 sq ft medium
<1400 sq ft small

I'd probably go for a PB Ultra 13 for a room of that size.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

fatbottom is offline  
post #29 of 55 Old 04-17-2014, 06:48 AM
Member
 
thisismyname123's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 123
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 20
What about dual PB-1000s? Would dual ported be much better than dual sealed?

I'm learning about all of this....don't know a whole lot about the technical details so the responses I'm getting about gain, headroom etc are going over my head right now.
thisismyname123 is offline  
post #30 of 55 Old 04-17-2014, 06:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
flickhtguru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Lebanon, PA
Posts: 2,458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 105
^^^ It depends what you are wanting as your end result in bass.... A ported sub factoring in room gain in a small room can have a huge amount of 18 to 22hz output ( just random numbers could be lower depending on the sub). But ported subs freq resp usually falls off steeply after the port tune. So you may get extra exaggerated bass in the high teens to low twenties ( sometimes too much( however auto room EQ should take care of that)) but then not much output below that. A sealed sub has a much more shallow roll off freq so with a small room and room gain you can end up with a fairly flat response into the high single digits to low teens depending on the sub of course.

Shawn
flickhtguru is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off