Theater Room Build Subwoofer Choice - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 66 Old 05-07-2014, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm a long time lurker and I've been reading up on my options for subs. I'm moving into a new house next month with a separate bonus room on the second floor and I'm converting it to a full dedicated theater (projector and the works etc.)...

I'm looking to play mostly HTPC media on it along with DirecTV. Not much music or gaming. I'm looking to keep it under $3000.

I have dual Outlaw LFM-1 EX's currently so I'm no stranger to a hard hitting setup (I think tongue.gif ). I am only taking one with me to the new house and it's going in the living room. I'm okay with that for my living room but for the theater build I want something that hits even HARDER and DEEPER.

I've read the countless threads on JTR, Seaton, SVS, Rhythmik, etc. I'm pretty firm on wanting to do a single subwoofer instead of dual. I don't want a tuning headache as that's not my expertise. I'm sure I can get more out of the dual setup I'm doing now but like I said, not my expertise. I'm good with basic room placement, decoupler stands, and making sure not to run a sub too hot but beyond that I'm not too savvy. Would the Seaton Submersive HP fit the bill or would it be totally overkill? Honestly, this is my favorite after all my readings. It's easier if I could actually listen to these things but it's impossible. I used this forum in the past and bought the Outlaw LFM-1 EX unheard and still love it to this day so I'm hoping to not be guided wrong.

Room size is 19x17 with a cathedral ceiling. It's approximately 3200 cubic feet. Here's the room with photos off listing agent's site. First photo is facing back from where I planned on putting the projector screen and the second is from coming up the stairs facing the soon to be projector screen. I know I'll have to black out that one window but I'll cross that road later.

Thanks for your time!

TL:DR Cliff notes: Recommend me a sub to fit the bill in 3200 cubic feet for under $3000




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post #2 of 66 Old 05-07-2014, 04:11 PM
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Despite your objections, I cannot in good conscience NOT recommend dual subs when one has the budget for it.  The benefit is large enough to make it worth your while to download REW, buy a mic for $75 and measure the room.  Then eq the subs with a miniDSP.  For an easier version, use an AVR with dual sub eq ability like a Denon X4000.  Put a sub in the front corner, one in the back corner, and let your AVR set up and EQ the subs.

 

Having said that, I would recommend, over a single Seaton Submersive:

 

Dual PSA XS30se's (similar configuration to the SS, and imo, 2 would be better than one)

Dual PSA XV15se's

Dual PSA XV30se's

Dual Rythmik FV15HP

 

Those would be my top four choices for your room and budget.  Sorry for recommending duals despite your objections, but its the only way to effectively get a smooth response.

 

Also, if you come in under budget, consider adding some buttkickers.  I am on a buttkicker kick recently.

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post #3 of 66 Old 05-07-2014, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
I'm moving into a new house next month with a separate bonus room on the second floor ...

I'm looking to play mostly HTPC media on it along with DirecTV. Not much music or gaming. I'm looking to keep it under $3000.

... I'm pretty firm on wanting to do a single subwoofer instead of dual. ...

Room size is 19x17 with a cathedral ceiling. It's approximately 3200 cubic feet. ...

TL:DR Cliff notes: Recommend me a sub to fit the bill in 3200 cubic feet for under $3000
JTR Captivator 2400 ($2,599 + shipping)
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post #4 of 66 Old 05-07-2014, 06:54 PM
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I think your pick of the SubMersive HP is a great choice if you prefer to go with a single sub for your room. The F2 has better aesthetics if that's a consideration.
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post #5 of 66 Old 05-07-2014, 07:17 PM
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JTR Captivator 2400 or PSA Triax. Or if you are willing to put together a pre built cabinet, Full Marty with UXL-18.
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post #6 of 66 Old 05-07-2014, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

JTR Captivator 2400 or PSA Triax. Or if you are willing to put together a pre built cabinet, Full Marty with UXL-18.

Yep. The Triax would do some serious damage (in a good way).

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post #7 of 66 Old 05-07-2014, 07:40 PM
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I have to agree with bear and recommend dual subs. Making a large investment in one sub may lead to a very uneven room response and the need to spend more money on a second sub. It is easy enough to setup two sub without a computer program and separate mic. A Guide to Bass Management Part I on the Bluray forum is all you need to get 97% there. That room has some excellent corners to take advantage of!

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post #8 of 66 Old 05-08-2014, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

JTR Captivator 2400 ($2,599 + shipping)

+1, for a single sub setup in a medium sized room, that is what I would be looking at, the biggest ported sub in the business. For two subs at $3k, that is a no-brainer: dual passive Captivator 1000s with an amp like this Behringer. $3k on the nose and monstrous firepower.
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post #9 of 66 Old 05-08-2014, 05:51 AM
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Then again, why Captivate when you can Shift Orbits?

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LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

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post #10 of 66 Old 05-08-2014, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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okay read the replies and did some further looking around

Thoughts on buying a single Submersive (or JTR) now and enjoying the setup? For all I know duals may be too much for that room size. There is no WAF on this one. She's 100% supportive of whatever I need to do to get this system sounding awesome. If I feel I need more power I can always add a second one down the road. Go with the best one I can afford now for my money. Why recommending the JTR over the Seaton? The DIY route sounds fun too but I wouldn't know where to start with this. The Triax I've never heard of but that sub looks intense!! Reminds me of the Paradigm.

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post #11 of 66 Old 05-08-2014, 06:45 AM
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Check out the Orbit Shifter as well.  And duals is not only about output, its about improving the bass.  That seems to be what you are after.  Two good subs will provide better bass than one great sub.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

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post #12 of 66 Old 05-08-2014, 06:47 AM
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There is no such thing as too much, that is why subs have gain controls and pre/pro or AVR's have sub trim. The purpose of duals(or multiples) is to help smooth the response...a single sub can not smooth any room modes. Also duals split the load so it takes 50% cone excursion to achieve the same output of a single sub. That equals lower distortion and cleaner bass reproduction at higher output levels.
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post #13 of 66 Old 05-08-2014, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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ugh you guys are killing me!!! tongue.gif

From looking around reading two Rhythmik's will not equal one Submersive/JTR. $3000 my limit and the JTR goes beyond the budget. To put things in perspective I have dual Outlaw LFM-1 EX right now (albeit not tuned). I want more output (volume) than what I'm pushing now for the lower frequencies. cool.gif

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post #14 of 66 Old 05-08-2014, 10:41 AM
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I'd recommend you do one of three things:

1) Seaton Submersive HP+ now, add a slave unit later
2) Dual passive Cap 1000's, behringer amp as suggested above
3) Cap 2400, add a second later

That's the order I'd personally do them in, though for theater only use the dual caps might give more output than the dual seatons. If its one sub and only one sub ever, perhaps stretch the budget a few hundred and get an orbit shifter (I wouldn't do this).
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post #15 of 66 Old 05-08-2014, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosferatu 
$3000 my limit and the JTR goes beyond the budget.
Curious: How does the Captivator 2400 ($2,599 + shipping) go over budget? Is the shipping more than $401? Or are you also paying state tax and that's what pushes the price over $3,000? Thanks.
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post #16 of 66 Old 05-08-2014, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosferatu View Post

ugh you guys are killing me!!! tongue.gif

From looking around reading two Rhythmik's will not equal one Submersive/JTR. $3000 my limit and the JTR goes beyond the budget. To put things in perspective I have dual Outlaw LFM-1 EX right now (albeit not tuned). I want more output (volume) than what I'm pushing now for the lower frequencies. cool.gif

I am almost certain dual FV15HP's would have slightly more output then a single SubM especially around the port tune. The Captivator and Triax both fall under your budget unless the prices increased yesterday?
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post #17 of 66 Old 05-09-2014, 05:04 AM - Thread Starter
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http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator/

I was reading MSRP line. So the Manufacturer direct is the actual price. Okay, why is this sub better than the Seaton?

EDIT: Did I read it right that it has XLR inputs only? I'm looking for a sub with traditional unbalanced RCA line in inputs? Does this knock the Seaton out as well? I'm going to be buying a new receiver/preamp for this setup so now I may have to reconsider some things. My only reason to keeping with unbalanced inputs is because I'm looking to keep budget down. I'm going to ultimately go with an AVR that has full pre-outs so if down the road I opt for more power I can convert the AVR to pre-amp only.

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post #18 of 66 Old 05-09-2014, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosferatu View Post

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator/

I was reading MSRP line. So the Manufacturer direct is the actual price. Okay, why is this sub better than the Seaton?

EDIT: Did I read it right that it has XLR inputs only? I'm looking for a sub with traditional unbalanced RCA line in inputs? Does this knock the Seaton out as well? I'm going to be buying a new receiver/preamp for this setup so now I may have to reconsider some things. My only reason to keeping with unbalanced inputs is because I'm looking to keep budget down. I'm going to ultimately go with an AVR that has full pre-outs so if down the road I opt for more power I can convert the AVR to pre-amp only.

Lol, just get a balanced to unbalanced adapter for $20. Don't let XLR inputs throw you off for heavens sake!.
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post #19 of 66 Old 05-09-2014, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Lol, just get a balanced to unbalanced adapter for $20. Don't let XLR inputs throw you off for heavens sake!.

Okay perfect thanks. I haven't dealt with devices / sources that use XLR before so I wasn't sure if that was available.

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/339741.html

Would something like that cover it? I really wasn't looking to go all out just yet with a preamp processor, dedicated amp, etc. cool.gif

EDIT: Glancing at the Captivator subs, what's the difference between the S1 and the 2400 besides a minimal price hike???

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post #20 of 66 Old 05-09-2014, 06:42 AM
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That adapter looks fine. As for tha Cap S1 vs 2400, the S1 is a sealed design, which means it will not have the benefit of port output. The 2400 will be larger but the ports will give you a lot more deep bass. Go for the 2400, the S1 is meant for smaller spaces.
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post #21 of 66 Old 05-09-2014, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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okay I'm looking around a little more. The PSA subs have perked my interest. The dual xs30se sounds like an awesome option but the pricing is close to a Triax. Tough call on that one?

EDIT: xv30fse seems more beastly. Single of this sub? Compared to Triax? I'm google searching and not finding a whole lot.

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post #22 of 66 Old 05-09-2014, 07:58 AM
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Not on the same level as JTR. Two passive Captivators with a Behringer amp will stomp those. There is a reason why there is so much encouragement to go for JTRs.
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post #23 of 66 Old 05-09-2014, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosferatu View Post

okay I'm looking around a little more. The PSA subs have perked my interest. The dual xs30se sounds like an awesome option but the pricing is close to a Triax. Tough call on that one?

EDIT: xv30fse seems more beastly. Single of this sub? Compared to Triax? I'm google searching and not finding a whole lot.

Dual XV30f subwoofers will have a bit more output than a single Triax 16hz to 100hz.. The Triax will have the ability to extend deeper though. I'd expect extension down to the 15-17hz range for the XV30Fse in your room environment, the Triax would reach into the single digits. A single XV30Fse (located in/near a corner) should offer 115-124dB of clean output at any seating position within say 3 or 4 meters. Depending on your listening habits you may find that is plenty.

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post #24 of 66 Old 05-10-2014, 06:42 AM
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I think you should stick with your instincts after having poured over the threads you mentioned.

There are lots of claims of output in your room and extension to "single digits", whatever that means, along with the usual blather about what a sub will "hit", "destroy", etc.

"Output" at the seats is a measurement of extremely complex transient peaks from very dynamic source with 30dB peak-to-average. Those transients are very difficult to measure. As far as my research goes, I've yet to see any accurate results from measuring those transient peaks in-room with any of the subs mentioned. As well, there's no way to predict output in your room at your seats when looking at 2 shots of the room empty and with nothing else to go on.

Seaton and Ding are the most capable guys of those mentioned in your OP. Of the 2, in your case, the SM is the better sub, all things considered. The JTR passive stuff coupled with a junk amplifier like the Berry low end amps is no comparison to the level of fine-tuning and quality found in the SM. The PSA stuff is just the low end copied version of the SM, P'Digm and others.

I say, in your case, wanting a single unit, trust your instincts... SubMersive. IMO, YMMV, FWIW, etc.
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post #25 of 66 Old 05-10-2014, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass 
The JTR passive stuff coupled with a junk amplifier like the Berry low end amps is no comparison to the level of fine-tuning and quality found in the SM.
Curious: How does the JTR active stuff - such as the Captivator 2400, with its "DSP optimised" amp - compare to the level of fine-tuning and quality found in the SM?
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post #26 of 66 Old 05-10-2014, 07:19 AM
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I think you should stick with your instincts after having poured over the threads you mentioned.

There are lots of claims of output in your room and extension to "single digits", whatever that means, along with the usual blather about what a sub will "hit", "destroy", etc.

"Output" at the seats is a measurement of extremely complex transient peaks from very dynamic source with 30dB peak-to-average. Those transients are very difficult to measure. As far as my research goes, I've yet to see any accurate results from measuring those transient peaks in-room with any of the subs mentioned. As well, there's no way to predict output in your room at your seats when looking at 2 shots of the room empty and with nothing else to go on.

Seaton and Ding are the most capable guys of those mentioned in your OP. Of the 2, in your case, the SM is the better sub, all things considered. The JTR passive stuff coupled with a junk amplifier like the Berry low end amps is no comparison to the level of fine-tuning and quality found in the SM. The PSA stuff is just the low end copied version of the SM, P'Digm and others.

I say, in your case, wanting a single unit, trust your instincts... SubMersive. IMO, YMMV, FWIW, etc.

So you are saying good results can not be achieved with a Inuke DSP and a Pair of Passive Captivators? Both the JTR and Triax active subs utilize the same speaker power amp as the SubM, both are using quality drivers. PSA stuff is the "low end" copied version? I have yet to see another ID sub like the Triax. 4000w speaker power amp with 3 50lb 15" drivers seems far from low end, but you know more about this stuff then I do so please do explain further. smile.gif
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post #27 of 66 Old 05-10-2014, 07:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass 
The JTR passive stuff coupled with a junk amplifier like the Berry low end amps is no comparison to the level of fine-tuning and quality found in the SM.
Curious: How does the JTR active stuff - such as the Captivator 2400, with its "DSP optimised" amp - compare to the level of fine-tuning and quality found in the SM?

Eljay, see what you can glean from the results here: Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012.

No Cap 2400's in the mix, but Captivator S's and Orbit Shifters where there along with the SubMersives.
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post #28 of 66 Old 05-10-2014, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Curious: How does the JTR active stuff - such as the Captivator 2400, with its "DSP optimised" amp - compare to the level of fine-tuning and quality found in the SM?

Seaton has been around on these forums for a long time. The SM is 7 years in and comparisons to JTR and other subs that have become available afterward by well regarded AVS members, using soundtrack and music source, are well documented. Otherwise, the choice is a personal one that I have no comment on.
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So you are saying good results can not be achieved with a Inuke DSP and a Pair of Passive Captivators?

In the context of the OP... yes, that's what I'm saying.
Quote:
Both the JTR and Triax active subs utilize the same speaker power amp as the SubM, both are using quality drivers. PSA stuff is the "low end" copied version? I have yet to see another ID sub like the Triax. 4000w speaker power amp with 3 50lb 15" drivers seems far from low end, but you know more about this stuff then I do so please do explain further. smile.gif

TV's first sub of note was a copy of the Hsu cylinder sub, using a Hsu driver:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_3/diy-11-sonotube-subwoofer-september-99.html

The subsequent SVS cylinders were simply a variation on that theme. The PSA ported sub was nothing new and had obvious flaws and those who pointed them out were relentlessly assaulted, all during which time TV was re-designing the sub to address those flaws. The Triax is an obvious version of the ML Depth/Descent and P'Digm Sub2 tri-baffle products that hasn't been around long enough to begin to compare it to the SM. It should go without saying that any ID start up, regardless of the irrational exuberance of its fan base, isn't in the same league as ML and P;Digm. And the (recently re-designed) PSA dual-opposed sealed sub is a blatant rip of the SM, which TV himself has conceded is an inferior version of.

Again, in the context of the OP, the SM is the obvious choice, IMO, FWIW. If you disagree, please make your point with facts and don't turn this into yet another PSA commercial advertisement.
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post #29 of 66 Old 05-10-2014, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post


So you are saying good results can not be achieved with a Inuke DSP and a Pair of Passive Captivators? Both the JTR and Triax active subs utilize the same speaker power amp as the SubM, both are using quality drivers. PSA stuff is the "low end" copied version? I have yet to see another ID sub like the Triax. 4000w speaker power amp with 3 50lb 15" drivers seems far from low end, but you know more about this stuff then I do so please do explain further. smile.gif

I would be willing to bet he was referring to the power x lineup.  Having said that, for me, as much as I really like the Submersive, it would be really hard for me to take one of those over dual XS30se's for less money and similar drivers.  The Submersive has a larger cab and better amp, but the benefit of duals would, in my semi-educated guess, be likely to exceed the performance of a single Submersive in most respects.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

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post #30 of 66 Old 05-10-2014, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Seaton has been around on these forums for a long time. The SM is 7 years in and comparisons to JTR and other subs that have become available afterward by well regarded AVS members, using soundtrack and music source, are well documented. Otherwise, the choice is a personal one that I have no comment on.
In the context of the OP... yes, that's what I'm saying.


TV's first sub of note was a copy of the Hsu cylinder sub, using a Hsu driver:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_3/diy-11-sonotube-subwoofer-september-99.html

The subsequent SVS cylinders were simply a variation on that theme. The PSA ported sub was nothing new and had obvious flaws and those who pointed them out were relentlessly assaulted, all during which time TV was re-designing the sub to address those flaws. The Triax is an obvious version of the ML Depth/Descent and P'Digm Sub2 tri-baffle products that hasn't been around long enough to begin to compare it to the SM. It should go without saying that any ID start up, regardless of the irrational exuberance of its fan base, isn't in the same league as ML and P;Digm. And the (recently re-designed) PSA dual-opposed sealed sub is a blatant rip of the SM, which TV himself has conceded is an inferior version of.

Again, in the context of the OP, the SM is the obvious choice, IMO, FWIW. If you disagree, please make your point with facts and don't turn this into yet another PSA commercial advertisement.

Not advertising anything or disagreeing...I believe I suggested the JTR as first choice. The SubM is also a fine choice...I thought Ported would be a better suit since the OP's room is 3200^3. Since Seaton does not offer a Ported sub and dual SubM is not in the Budget, the Captivator 2400 looked to be a better sub for the application. 2599.00 for the Active version still falls under budget. smile.gif
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