Duals: PB2000 vs Outlaw LFM-1 EX - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 05-11-2014, 12:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been doing some reading and searching throughout the forums and I've found a couple passing opinions comparing these 2 subs but not as much as I'd like before pulling the trigger. I currently have an MFW-15 that I'm looking to replace with duals. Pertinent info:
1. This will be in a dual purpose room on a concrete slab, with tons of cu ft. Open floor plan means the family room, living room, dining room and kitchen (along with 20ft cathedral ceilings) all share airspace.
2. 60% Movies/TV, 30% Gaming and 10% music.
3. I'll be using a SubEQ to tune them.
4. I am totally set in stone on placement, they'll be along the front stage, one on each side of display.
5. Good response down low is of higher priority than absolute max output. Thanks to proximity of neighbors, I don't listen at monster volumes.


Is there a clear cut, superior option between these 2? Let me know if I forgot to mention anything pertinent.
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post #2 of 23 Old 05-11-2014, 01:47 AM
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It looks like they will be close in performance. My guess is the PB2000 will have an edge in clean deep bass output, but the LFM will have a slim advantage in mid and upper bass output. If they were priced the same I would probably swing for the PB2000, but on the occasions when the EX goes on sale for around $600 shipped, it presents a better value. In this price point you might also give a dual Hsu VTF3 mk4 setup a look, which is superior to the LFM-1 EX, and I would also take a good long look at a Reaction dual BPS 215 setup.
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post #3 of 23 Old 05-11-2014, 04:52 AM
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Can't go wrong with either setup. You may be able to get the Outlaw for a better price. SVS has the better warranty which is another thing to consider.
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post #4 of 23 Old 05-11-2014, 05:36 AM
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I agree with Shadyj's comments on the two subs.  Here is my in room extension with a PB2000, 2525 cu. ft. 17 x 16.5 room.  16.6 Hz @ 75 dB, I have the -3dB point marked:

 


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post #5 of 23 Old 05-11-2014, 09:01 AM
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I highly doubt the EX is going to have more clean output then the PB2000 anywhere in the FR...add 3db to the PB12nsd numbers from 25-100hz @ data-bass.com/systems and that will give you a general idea what the PB2000 is capable of. Imo go with the PB2000, good clean output down into the teens and can not be over driven into mechanical distress. Not to mention 45day free trial and 5_yr warranty. smile.gif

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post #6 of 23 Old 05-11-2014, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Down View Post

1. This will be in a dual purpose room on a concrete slab, with tons of cu ft. Open floor plan means the family room, living room, dining room and kitchen (along with 20ft cathedral ceilings) all share airspace..

If you are happy with the MFW-15s performance in overall output, then either of those two subs should fine.

If you are expecting more overall output from the duals, then I would go with the Power Sound XV15 SE.
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post #7 of 23 Old 05-11-2014, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post


If you are happy with the MFW-15s performance in overall output, then either of those two subs should fine.

If you are expecting more overall output from the duals, then I would go with the Power Sound XV15 SE.

+1.


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post #8 of 23 Old 05-12-2014, 09:15 AM
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As other have stated, the 2000 is a better sub, but the outlaw for $600 shipped is a better value. I would take 2 2000's over 2 outlaws, but I would take 3 outlaws over 2 2000's.

I have a large open cathedral ceiling room and it's very hard to get good chest thumping bass. I have 3 subs in there and my bass is lacking.
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post #9 of 23 Old 05-12-2014, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

As other have stated, the 2000 is a better sub, but the outlaw for $600 shipped is a better value. I would take 2 2000's over 2 outlaws, but I would take 3 outlaws over 2 2000's.

I have a large open cathedral ceiling room and it's very hard to get good chest thumping bass. I have 3 subs in there and my bass is lacking.

The Plus is around $600 shipped the EX is $650 plus shipping.
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post #10 of 23 Old 05-12-2014, 06:39 PM
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I have the PB-2000. If you wanna spend the extra money def go for it! one of these things kicks a lot of ass; I cant imagine what 2 of these things would do eek.gif

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post #11 of 23 Old 05-12-2014, 07:09 PM
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Being on concrete in a large space with high ceiling is very challenging to say the least. To get chest slam and great tactile response, you most likely need at least 4 subs and bigger subs or more powerful subs. I am in a 5300 cu ft. room with concrete floor, fully carpeted. In other words a sound absorbing room and on the dead side. I use 4 subs to get the job done. You need at least 105 to 110 db in the 15-20 Hz at the MLP range to get the slam and tactile response.
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post #12 of 23 Old 05-12-2014, 10:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all of the input. I was leaning towards the PB2k being the better subwoofer, with the Outlaw edging it out in the bang for buck area when it's on sale. It would appear I wasn't too far off base. smile.gif
While I had originally been pretty set between these two, I am actually considering an XV15se. While I live in a single family home, I don't exactly have a TON of room between my sub's home and the neighbor's bedroom, so I hadn't really began to consider an increase in output. However, it appears that for only a couple hundred more in going the PSA route, I could pick up a decent output upgrade over my ol MFW. I'm not even bothering to try and pressurize the room, I'd have major neighbor complaints before I ever came close to that, but increased headroom is always a nice thing. I do miss a previous home and its small, basement theater....
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post #13 of 23 Old 05-13-2014, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmash View Post

The Plus is around $600 shipped the EX is $650 plus shipping.
We were referring to the EX when it occasionally goes on sale. Not the regular price.
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post #14 of 23 Old 05-13-2014, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmash 
The Plus is around $600 shipped the EX is $650 plus shipping.
Very recently, the Plus was on sale for $499, shipped. The EX has been on sale in the past for $600-$650, shipped. Outlaw has sales a couple or so times a year - they're worth keeping an eye out for.
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post #15 of 23 Old 05-13-2014, 08:14 PM
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Ok, sorry for my confusion. I've seen the Plus on sale a few times, never noticed the EX being that cheap.
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post #16 of 23 Old 05-14-2014, 12:09 PM
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Anyone know how much output you gain when you add a second sub? I've heard 6dB, but others have said that's not right. Isn't there some "formula" that tells us exactly how much?

Indecision may or may not be my problem.
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post #17 of 23 Old 05-14-2014, 12:17 PM
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It will be 6 dB at most and 3 dB at the least, and it will be frequency dependent, so don't count on an X dB boost across the board, it varies by frequency.
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post #18 of 23 Old 05-14-2014, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

Anyone know how much output you gain when you add a second sub? I've heard 6dB, but others have said that's not right. Isn't there some "formula" that tells us exactly how much?

See this post: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1448465/single-subwoofer-vs-dual-subwoofers#post_22764942

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post #19 of 23 Old 05-14-2014, 01:56 PM
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Thanks, very good read. I am torn between dual PB2000s or a single PC13-Ultra. Wouldn't the Ultra have more output under 25Hz?

Indecision may or may not be my problem.
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post #20 of 23 Old 05-16-2014, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

Anyone know how much output you gain when you add a second sub? I've heard 6dB, but others have said that's not right. Isn't there some "formula" that tells us exactly how much?

The two subs would have to occupy the exact same spot and be in perfect phase to get a uniform 6DB gain. Which is of course impossible. If the subs are very close to each other then you get really close to a uniform 6 db gain. It's commonly noted that as long as the distance is less than 1/4 the wavelength of a particular frequency, you don't get any loss. The reality is the further apart the subs are, and still near each other, the greater the loss, it's just that within 1/4 wavelength, the loss isn't much as compared to say if they were 1/2 wavelength apart and the wave generally appears as one wave instead of two waves superimposed on each other.

In typical instances when the subs are randomly placed apart, the aggregate SPL gain is between 3 and 5 db,

In most cases, you don't want to place the subs together. You get more SPL, but since the overall wave behaves as a single wave, you'll also get more room nulls. Places where waves travelling in opposite directions cancel each other out. If you have multiple wave sources, in places where one subs waves cancel each other, It's very unlikely the other subs waves would also cancel out in the exact same spot. In these spots, you would have a dip, but not a complete null.
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post #21 of 23 Old 05-18-2014, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post

Thanks, very good read. I am torn between dual PB2000s or a single PC13-Ultra. Wouldn't the Ultra have more output under 25Hz?

The PC13-Ultra is a fabulous sub, but I'll also throw the Rythmik FV15HP into the mix.
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post #22 of 23 Old 05-18-2014, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

The two subs would have to occupy the exact same spot and be in perfect phase to get a uniform 6DB gain. Which is of course impossible. If the subs are very close to each other then you get really close to a uniform 6 db gain. It's commonly noted that as long as the distance is less than 1/4 the wavelength of a particular frequency, you don't get any loss. The reality is the further apart the subs are, and still near each other, the greater the loss, it's just that within 1/4 wavelength, the loss isn't much as compared to say if they were 1/2 wavelength apart and the wave generally appears as one wave instead of two waves superimposed on each other.

In typical instances when the subs are randomly placed apart, the aggregate SPL gain is between 3 and 5 db,

In most cases, you don't want to place the subs together. You get more SPL, but since the overall wave behaves as a single wave, you'll also get more room nulls. Places where waves travelling in opposite directions cancel each other out. If you have multiple wave sources, in places where one subs waves cancel each other, It's very unlikely the other subs waves would also cancel out in the exact same spot. In these spots, you would have a dip, but not a complete null.

So if they are 6 feet apart, is that good or bad?

Indecision may or may not be my problem.
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post #23 of 23 Old 05-18-2014, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post


So if they are 6 feet apart, is that good or bad?

You have to measure to know for sure.  With good placement, dual subs will add around 6 dB of output.  They do not have to be mutually coupled, but if not, there is not a guarantee of how much SPL  you will gain.  Mutually coupling the subs will not change the FR at all.  As a law of physics, doubling power and displacement adds 6 dB of output.  How much of that is perceived at the LP does depend on proper placement and phase.  Spread out, you will not gain exactly 6 dB across the entire FR, as you might gain 10-15 db in a null, but none in a peak or even a reduction.  But the average across the FR with good placement should be close to 6.  If you want to ensure a good FR, get REW and mic and measure.


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Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

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