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post #1 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Deep bass serves as the foundation for any high-performance audio system. For both music and movies, the ability to play low is a crucial capability. Whether you use full-range speakers or separate subwoofers to get there, the lowest notes require ever-increasing amounts of power to reproduce properly.

 

An analysis of the bass content from "The Dark Knight." The image is from the AVS New Master List of Bass in Movies

 

A few nights ago, my wife Danya and I had dinner with Keith Yates and his wife Hanne at Philly's a.kitchen restaurant, where we discussed deep bass among other things. At one point, I asked, "What is the lowest frequency someone should aim to reproduce at reference levels in their system?" As is typical with Keith, the answer was not simple—but it was thorough and scientific. It also included a number, but I'll get to that later. First, it's worth discussing what it takes to achieve great bass response.

The deeper you go, the less sensitive your ears are to bass. Below a certain point—right around 20 Hz—bass morphs into a tactile experience, and the ears play an ever-diminishing role. Yet, infrasonic bass is precisely the stimulus that makes things seem real. When you "feel" a door slam in another part of the house, infrasonic bass carries the sensation to you. In a movie, the tangible nature of deep bass makes things like gunshots and explosions feel real. At it's best, bass produces goosebumps.

 

Subwoofers come in all sorts of shapes and sizes—and capabilities

 

Great bass response encompasses more than just digging deep. Because bass waves are prone to bouncing around a room, resulting in a matrix of peaks and valleys—just think of a wave pool at a water park—you must take great care to achieve a room response that is as smooth as possible. Often, the best solutions involve the use of multiple subwoofers along with careful placement. Of course, buying more than one sub multiplies the cost and takes up additional space.

 

When shopping for a subwoofer, it's hard not to notice the correlation between bass extension and price—digging deep costs money because it requires a lot of power and displacement (the amount of air a driver can push). Quite a few high-end full-range speaker designs are essentially a subwoofer with a bookshelf speaker on top—the iconic Wilson Watt-Puppy and B&W's 802D come to mind. The problem with the full-range speaker approach is that it's rarely ideal to have deep bass emanate from the same spot as the rest of the audio spectrum—hence the popularity of separate, dedicated subwoofers.

 

Smooth response (using multiple subs) is a good thing, and so is bass extension. How low should you go, given the budget-busting nature of digging really deep? Let's look at some numbers:

 

32 Hz – It's deep, but not that deep. In musical notation, it's known as "pedal C" or C1. 32 Hz aligns with what commercial movie theaters and concert venues define as the bottom end. By design, many "pro" subwoofers can't play much lower than 32 Hz—instead, the focus is on efficiency from that frequency on up. Subwoofers designed for the home that play down to 32 Hz (but not deeper) are usually compact and relatively affordable. The problem is that a lot of movies contain a lot of audio information below 32 Hz. Also, 32 Hz is one octave above the lowest note used in classical music—again, there's a real chance that you'll miss out on part of the performance if you only get down to 32 Hz. On the other hand, some movies (e.g., Star Trek, The Hobbit) filter out everything below a certain frequency, and often that frequency is 30 Hz or higher.

 

Subs that only go down to around 30 Hz are relatively compact and/or inexpensive

 

20 Hz – This is commonly considered the lowest frequency humans can hear, and 20 Hz is deep. Unfortunately, deep doesn't come cheap—the leap from 30 Hz to 20 Hz requires more power, larger cabinets,  and larger drivers. Many movies use sound effects around 20 Hz to add visceral sensation to the experience. Sometimes it's a super-low drone that induces a sense of dread, sometimes it's an explosion that sucks the air out of your lungs. Other times, it's the subtle thud of a car door or the crunch of a horse's hoof that feel real thanks to deep bass between 20 and 30 Hz.

 

16 Hz – This is the frequency of the lowest note used in classical music—sub contra C. In my view, fans of 2-channel music listening can’t claim to have a full-range system unless it is capable of playing at reference levels from 16 Hz up to 20 kHz. While it's rare to find notes that deep in music, film is another story. For movies, the extra depth (below 20 Hz) translates to even-more visceral audio.

 

Subs with extension to 16 Hz tend to cost more and ported designs that dig deep require large enclosures

 

8Hz — This is true ULF (ultra-low frequency) territory. Few commercial subs claim to dig this deep. Still, content exists to take advantage of a system that can play down to single-digit Hz. For example, the "F****** Irene" scene from Black Hawk Down provides a 7Hz pulse that convincingly emulates standing under the spinning blades of a Black Hawk helicopter. The power and displacement required to achieve bass that low makes it a rare experience; I got my first taste less than one year ago when I visited the (first) AVS Home Theater of The Month, "Popalock's Bassment." That theater featured sixteen 18-inch subs crammed into a standard-sized room, and the effect was literally scary—if I recall correctly, my fight-or-flight instinct kicked in several times during that visit. 8Hz also happens to be the frequency Keith Yates suggested as a target. 

 

Sixteen 18-inch subwoofers handled infrasonic content with ease

 

A chart of the bass response in Black Hawk Down's "F***** Irene" scene

 

Is infrasonic bass a worthwhile pursuit? What matters more to you, deeper bass or flatter response? Do like using discrete subwoofers, or do you prefer full range speakers that integrate subwoofer capability? Ultimately, how low should you go? 

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post #2 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 12:47 PM
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I agree but I'll add that much of the infrasonic tactile reality we experience is through our feet. When a very large heavy vehicle passes by I can feel it in my feet. When a loud deep thunder clap occurs I feel it through my feet. For this reason I'll be installing tactile transducers in the riser under my seating. One more each tactile transducer will be located on the backs and under each seating position but those will be toned down a bit. HOPEFULLY, I can get them to integrate well with the subwoofers and the rest of the system. I'm sure my little 2800 ft3 room will be fine with just three three pairs of high quality 18" subs in IB configuration. I have no desire to buy or install more than that. These should be pretty good into the single digits in my room.
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post #3 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 01:10 PM
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post #4 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 01:19 PM
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Subs are one area where it is so easy to go crazy in the pursuit of lower and lower HZ. Several months ago I switched from a BIC F12 to a SVS PC12+. It was a night and day difference when it came to what I was hearing. The BIC had a pretty steep roll off in the 35hz region, the SVS can play down to around 16hz. The amount of content that was missing from movies is incredible to me. I also realize that at some point the cost becomes so extreme when looking at the result. While I would love to keep chasing down to something lower, I simply don't think I can justify the additional cost. My question for those who have the equipment, realistically how much sound is there going below 16hz?
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post #5 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 01:31 PM
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Based on my experience I think the margin for content <16hz is pretty slim, but that's just my opinion.

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post #6 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post

Subs are one area where it is so easy to go crazy in the pursuit of lower and lower HZ. Several months ago I switched from a BIC F12 to a SVS PC12+. It was a night and day difference when it came to what I was hearing. The BIC had a pretty steep roll off in the 35hz region, the SVS can play down to around 16hz. The amount of content that was missing from movies is incredible to me. I also realize that at some point the cost becomes so extreme when looking at the result. While I would love to keep chasing down to something lower, I simply don't think I can justify the additional cost. My question for those who have the equipment, realistically how much sound is there going below 16hz?

I think I paid about $1000 for six Stereo Integrity HT 18's delivered. The wood and labor for the IB install will cost me another $300 or so. The amp was $400. So that's about $1700 for a complete installed subwoofer system good to single digits that will play louder than I'll ever want to listen and the sound quality will be (should be) quite good. This isn't a plug-n-play system but... none "really are".
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post #7 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 02:27 PM
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TinnEars, that's a pretty solid way to go. I have 6 18's as well but went a slightly more expensive rout by having funk audio build mine with their TSADv1 drivers. They were kind enough to throw in 6 2.4kW amps to boot, lol. I am pretty solid to about 10Hz in my room now and I love the feeling. Its true that most of the movies that I watch don't have content that goes down that low, but it's there, it makes the whole setup worth it.
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post #8 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 02:27 PM
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imagic, this is a good but old discussion point. wink.gif I have a few notes to add.

The word "infrasonic" is a misnomer - it generally means "below hearing." It's conventional wisdom that we can't hear below 20Hz, but that conventional wisdom is dead wrong. While our ears are less sensitive below 20Hz, there is no limit to our hearing. And, while we may also sense frequencies below 20Hz with structures not associated with hearing, we also hear these frequencies. This was recently discussed, but here are a few links to follow. Beware, there's a TON of reading here, but it's valid science that has corrected the conventional wisdom.

A recent discussion of the value of reproducing below 20Hz:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/16410#post_24706846 (follow the subsequent linked content and read it completely to have an overview of the 30+ studies done since the 1930s regarding human hearing below 20Hz)

and

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/16440#post_24709584 (see the measured hearing thresholds for average people, young and old)

The content in that F'ing Irene scene is actually centered at 7Hz. I've graphed the digital content from a bunch of the most popular bass movies, and put it into a post here. There's tons of content below 20Hz.

In fact, maxmercy created a project a couple of years ago to objectively measure and rank the content of various movies (and other sources). So far, out of the 200+ movies we've measured bit-for-bit from the disc, about 2/3rds have content below 16Hz. Granted, there is selection bias because we're (mostly) only measuring so-called "bass" movies, but it's still a big slice of action/thriller/scifi/horror from the last decade.

To answer your questions, I think you should try to reproduce what is contained on the disc to the best of your budget's ability. The content is absolutely there, and there's a lot of it!


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post #9 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

imagic, this is a good but old discussion point. wink.gif I have a few notes to add.

The word "infrasonic" is a misnomer - it generally means "below hearing." It's conventional wisdom that we can't hear below 20Hz, but that conventional wisdom is dead wrong. While our ears are less sensitive below 20Hz, there is no limit to our hearing. And, while we may also sense frequencies below 20Hz with structures not associated with hearing, we also hear these frequencies. This was recently discussed, but here are a few links to follow. Beware, there's a TON of reading here, but it's valid science that has corrected the conventional wisdom.

A recent discussion of the value of reproducing below 20Hz:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/16410#post_24706846 (follow the subsequent linked content and read it completely to have an overview of the 30+ studies done since the 1930s regarding human hearing below 20Hz)

and

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/16440#post_24709584 (see the measured hearing thresholds for average people, young and old)

The content in that F'ing Irene scene is actually centered at 7Hz. I've graphed the digital content from a bunch of the most popular bass movies, and put it into a post here. There's tons of content below 20Hz.

In fact, maxmercy created a project a couple of years ago to objectively measure and rank the content of various movies (and other sources). So far, out of the 200+ movies we've measured bit-for-bit from the disc, about 2/3rds have content below 16Hz. Granted, there is selection bias because we're (mostly) only measuring so-called "bass" movies, but it's still a big slice of action/thriller/scifi/horror from the last decade.

To answer your questions, I think you should try to reproduce what is contained on the disc to the best of your budget's ability. The content is absolutely there, and there's a lot of it!

 

Indeed, a purpose of this thread is to introduce people who are not familiar with deep bass extension to the discussions that go down here at AVS. Thank you for the added notes, I agree that there is no hard wall at 20 Hz, it just requires increasing SPLs to sense deep bass. I edited the BHD number, thank you being precise!

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post #10 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 03:34 PM
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imagic, this is a good but old discussion point. wink.gif

Agreed. Thanks for the contrast and excellent coverage.
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post #11 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 03:51 PM
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Nice article. I still laugh when I see my BHD graph cuz I can't not see where "my finger slipped" and left an extra 'n' in 'Irene'. Lol. wink.giftongue.gif

Anyhoo....



In all practicality, for home use, shoot for 16hz extension. It's really not that hard to do nor expensive.

Then 10hz.

After that it starts getting tougher and/or more expensive, for most people. But if you're into it and want to reproduce everything that is on the disc then the benchmark is simply to extend low enough to do that.
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post #12 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 04:38 PM
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Having open-heart surgery in 2012 changed my whole attitude towards low bass. I used to love it. Now it hurts.

I got rid of my 15 inch sub and replaced it with a couple of smaller, sealed units; my system only goes down to about 28Hz now. Low enough to rattle my sternum, but not so low as to make me feel like it's coming back open. smile.gif

Because of the two subs and some advanced work on placement, the system overall sounds much better now. I don't really miss the ultralow stuff, and the tighter, more even bass I have now more than makes up for it.

(Just thought I'd throw in another perspective.)
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post #13 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 05:04 PM
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I am very happy with my HT sub going down to 18. Small room and it works great. I have heard a home made sub that went down to10. It was really intense. Too intense for me. My 2 channel full range speakers go to 20 and I don't feel like I am missing a thing.
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post #14 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 05:15 PM
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First off, great article, and rather serendipitous timing since I've been asking the same questions and wondering the same things.  My system room response is flat to 20Hz with a sealed enclosure with decent extension, 18Hz -3, 16Hz -10 measured in room with TrueRTA and Earthworks M23.  It's great on those movies that use that region and I have some electronic music that goes that low too.  I won't be trying to go any lower for a while but am intrigued.  I'm happy with my sub location now just to the right and slightly behind the left main.  I just ordered a second sub, Dynaudio BM14s on closeout, that should be arriving sometime this week.  Why a second sub?  My mains strain now with the 60Hz xover and 80Hz creates a more uneven response so I'm listening to movies that send low freqs to the mains a bit quieter than I'd like and based on input from the forums here it looks like a second sub might permit a higher xover point and still maintain an even response.  I'll be experimenting with locations and xover points once the sub gets here.

 

Question to the below 20Hz folks:

How is your system configured?  Do you have dedicated subs crossed over at 20Hz that go down to single digit?

Do you use a different sub setups for music and movies?

 

I really love the sound of my setup now so I'm reluctant to change it but if I could add a sub that took over at ~20Hz and went to single digit that would be more attractive to me.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

Based on my experience I think the margin for content <16hz is pretty slim, but that's just my opinion.

 

Although I tend to agree with you...if someone has a system that goes to 10Hz they've likely got a collection of material that goes to 10Hz...like the bass embracers that have already posted.

 

 

Thanks


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post #15 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 05:39 PM
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Unless you can produce 10hz at -10db from reference or at least 20hz at 0db from reference, you are missing the true bliss of home audio reproduction. EVERYTHING you playback sounds better with great bass, even stuff that isn't necessarily intended to "go down that low".

Replacing my subwoofers with a DIY set and powering them with over 10000 watts of power, then EQ'ing to a linear response was a serious revelation. The really big subs barely even move during normal playback and "feel" effortless even when you aren't trying to hold a bass competition.

Even with great subs, I find that the tactile transducers used strategically for 20-40hz range add just enough sensation that you don't feel like turning up the overall system volume at night. Great bass response helps your overall experience by reducing the max volume at which movies are enjoyable in your room. To put it another way, I used to crank up the volume more thinking I was missing something (and it turns out I was). Once you get that "perfect" response, you end up blowing away even what most commercial theaters provide in acoustics.

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post #16 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 05:49 PM
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If those darn recording engineers would just remember to turn the "rumble" filter on for every movie then we wouldn't have all this subsonic detritis to contend with.wink.gif

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post #17 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
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My question for those who have the equipment, realistically how much sound is there going below 16hz?

I guess my only answer would be, you don't miss it if you've never heard it done properly, but the second you hear true reference playback to the single digits, it is hard to NOT to want it. I started with 20hz horns, went to 12hz LLT's, and now are at 8x18 sealed and at 1/4 points of the room height and width. The sensation is visceral, and well worth the journey I took to get here smile.gif
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post #18 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 07:01 PM
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First off allow me to say thank you imagic, great article. How low should I go? I'll take 16 hz because that's what I can afford. But if I had the money I would as low as I could possibly achieve. 

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post #19 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 07:08 PM
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The simple answer is you should go as low as you can afford. Like others have said the content is there and your aim should be to reproduce it.

However, we must prioritize when it comes to our home theater budget if we hope to achieve a well balanced end product. A well rounded home theater experience will be more fulfilling than feeling ULF content but lets say neglecting sound treatments just for example.

So if you have a very healthy budget then why not go for single digits? No reason that I can think of. But, most people have many other areas of their home theater that are worth addressing before they start reaching for single digits (and their credit cards).

I have heard/felt ULF with eight 18'' subs and it is very impressive. Impressive enough for me to want to get there myself. But, if you can "only" get to say 14Hz you should not feel like you are missing out on something that is absolutely critical for a fun movie night.
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post #20 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 07:32 PM
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Saying go as low as you can afford is not really a good statement for everyone. Some can afford whatever is required to achieve whatever it is they seek. The real question is how low should one strive to go. At which point does it just not matter much anymore. For me personally , I am happy playing down to 16 Hz. Below that I just do not get much effect. Not worth having 6 or 12 or 22 18" drivers in order to barely notice a subtle sensation in hardly any scenes. I will take all the shake and rumble from 16+ that captures 99.9% of the noticeable effect.
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post #21 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 07:59 PM
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16hz is a perfectly good goal, below that is serious hobbyist realm for bragging rights ...
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post #22 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 08:20 PM
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The need for lower Hz.

How low can you play? 

 

They are called Marimba Eroica

 

DEEP
Extended low end frequency covers the range from Tenor C (C3 - 130.0Hz) down to Contra Bass C (C1 - 32.7Hz). (Q: Are notes available below these ranges?  If interested in notes in the Sub-Contra Bass (C0 – 16.35Hz) region, please contact Chris to discuss.)

http://www.ccbanta.com/bass-tone-bars/

http://www.ccbanta.com/bass-tone-bars/images/ChrisBanta-MarimbaEroica.jpg

 

http://www.ccbanta.com/bass-tone-bars/images/Partch-EroicaDances-REDCAT-Jun-7-2013-Lg.jpg

 

I want to hear these Instruments, anyone know of any recordings that use them??


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post #23 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 08:34 PM
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My system rattles things pretty good already and I don't go below 28 and not even as loud as I would like. Personally I would like to play at reference to 20 if not just a little lower. I am more concerned about intensity than extension.

I have other hobbies that I would rather spend money on rather than just chasing single digits.
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post #24 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 10:26 PM
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1. I was really hoping for something more attainable. 8hz is so low, I'm not even sure it's worth trying to achieve for 90% of ppl, including me
2. trying to get bass that sounds 'good' at frequencies that low require some serious care/engineering into the room. I have a sub that I can only assume falls closer to the 30hz than the 20hz, and doesn't even know 8hz exists, and it already fights with some of the design choices I've made in the room
3. I do believe it's worth it though, well I don't know about 8hz, I'd have to experience that first, but deep bass does add a lot of feel to the soundtrack. it's impossible to replicate the feeling in your chest without it. it's the difference between listening to a great pair of headphones and experiencing the actual event. you need that bass to hit your body, not just your ears.
4. I have my sub currently installed beneath my riser(aesthetic choice) and feeling that bass through your feet/backside is NOTHING like feeling it in your gut. imo, bass-shakers or the like are worthless, and can never replicate the feel of the real thing.

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post #25 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnoonie View Post
 

The need for lower Hz.

How low can you play? 

 

They are called Marimba Eroica

 

DEEP
Extended low end frequency covers the range from Tenor C (C3 - 130.0Hz) down to Contra Bass C (C1 - 32.7Hz). (Q: Are notes available below these ranges?  If interested in notes in the Sub-Contra Bass (C0 – 16.35Hz) region, please contact Chris to discuss.)

http://www.ccbanta.com/bass-tone-bars/

http://www.ccbanta.com/bass-tone-bars/images/ChrisBanta-MarimbaEroica.jpg

 

http://www.ccbanta.com/bass-tone-bars/images/Partch-EroicaDances-REDCAT-Jun-7-2013-Lg.jpg

 

I want to hear these Instruments, anyone know of any recordings that use them??


These instruments were designed by Harry Partch in the 1930s and '40s. There are several recordings of Harry Partch's music, but beware, it's pretty strange. He used a 43-note-per-octave scale based on just intonation. The instruments in these photos are modern reproductions. Partch's archive and instruments are housed in San Diego (University of California, I think).

its phillip and ControlZ like this.

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post #26 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 11:12 PM
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When I built my subs 14-15hz was the port tune that I build the subs around. It's still gives me extremely solid output down to 10hz, with just first first two of four up and running I should be able to hit a max output of 106dB @ 10hz. With all four going I'm looking at 112dB @ 10hz seems low enough for me.
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post #27 of 414 Old 05-13-2014, 11:23 PM
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It's most likely a shortcoming of my setup but I don't use the .1 LFE channel anymore because far too often with modern movie soundtracks it sounds boomy and I find it annoying and distracting, I'd rather do without it altogether. Interesting though I've never heard a home theatre that doesn't sound boomy when using subwoofers and the LFE channel, not sure why though because some of the setups I've heard have been expensive. The only time I've heard awesome deep bass that sounded realistic was in a commercial theatre and I suspect a lot of that has to do with the size of the room. Commercial theatre rooms are huge and big enough to reproduce those low frequencies.
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post #28 of 414 Old 05-14-2014, 12:04 AM
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If you are looking for more below 20hz content to add to your collection, you can always play around with stuff from Bass Mekanik.

www.bassmekanik.com

Their 'bass mekanik 5.0' has a tones section that goes to 10hz IIRC and they have a 'Tone pak' CD that has tones all the way down to 2hz! eek.gif

I realize this was originally intended for the car audio bass head crowd but who says it has to be limited to just that. Besides, with all the CD's they have made, you may actually fine a tune or three you actually like. wink.gif Also, for those who use spotify, you can listen to pretty much all their stuff without purchasing the discs.

Lastly, it looks like you can download 24-bit/48khz FLAC files from their website now so it looks like they are trying to step up the fidelity of their recordings. I would be interested to hear some opinions of how they sound as I currently am not set up for that.

Enjoy

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post #29 of 414 Old 05-14-2014, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post

It's most likely a shortcoming of my setup but I don't use the .1 LFE channel anymore because far too often with modern movie soundtracks it sounds boomy and I find it annoying and distracting, I'd rather do without it altogether. Interesting though I've never heard a home theatre that doesn't sound boomy when using subwoofers and the LFE channel, not sure why though because some of the setups I've heard have been expensive. The only time I've heard awesome deep bass that sounded realistic was in a commercial theatre and I suspect a lot of that has to do with the size of the room. Commercial theatre rooms are huge and big enough to reproduce those low frequencies.


I suspect the boomy rooms lacked treatment and/or had poor placement of speakers.  My room used to suffer from the same symptom until I added wall/corner treatment.

 

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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
 


These instruments were designed by Harry Partch in the 1930s and '40s. There are several recordings of Harry Partch's music, but beware, it's pretty strange. He used a 43-note-per-octave scale based on just intonation. The instruments in these photos are modern reproductions. Partch's archive and instruments are housed in San Diego (University of California, I think).


Yes ran across some Harry Partch information while checking out the Marimba Eroica.  Having played modern chamber music and attended concerts put on my friends playing modern chamber music (often polyrythmic with no clear melody, abstract music that evokes texture, color, light and mood in the imagination, some of it I find very lovely, some I find fascinating to play but not very interesting to listen to) I think my ear would be able to bend more willingly to Partch's music.  I downloaded the demo MP3s on the ccbanta web site but they are just MP3s, pretty decent though.  I looked for concert information but I could find nothing in my area.


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post #30 of 414 Old 05-14-2014, 12:15 AM
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Unless you can produce 10hz at -10db from reference or at least 20hz at 0db from reference, you are missing the true bliss of home audio reproduction. EVERYTHING you playback sounds better with great bass, even stuff that isn't necessarily intended to "go down that low".

Replacing my subwoofers with a DIY set and powering them with over 10000 watts of power, then EQ'ing to a linear response was a serious revelation. The really big subs barely even move during normal playback and "feel" effortless even when you aren't trying to hold a bass competition.

Even with great subs, I find that the tactile transducers used strategically for 20-40hz range add just enough sensation that you don't feel like turning up the overall system volume at night. Great bass response helps your overall experience by reducing the max volume at which movies are enjoyable in your room. To put it another way, I used to crank up the volume more thinking I was missing something (and it turns out I was). Once you get that "perfect" response, you end up blowing away even what most commercial theaters provide in acoustics.

By reference do you mean the 75db at the LP?

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