SVS SB-2000 or Sunfire HRS-10 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 71 Old 05-31-2014, 03:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello.

I'm looking for musical, yet low-hitting subwoofer, which will thump you in the chest and sound crisp at the same time. My room is 1000 cubic feet large, and it has sloped ceiling on both sides. I decided to go for sealed design, as I heard it's more accurate and can benefit from room gain due to shallow response-rolloff.

I can't decide between the two models mentioned in the title. SB-2000 is 12" powered with 500W RMS in 47 l sealed box, and HRS-10 is 10" powered with 1000W RMS in 32 l sealed box. Which will provide better tactile response (chest punch / shaking legs) in my room, and deliver overall better sound?

Both subs have same price, as the Sunfire in case is for sale. I'm also interested in hearing more sub recommendations for my needs. So, the usage is 80/20 for music/movies, and the chest thump / tactile response is priority number one. However, the sound must be more accurate than my cerwin vegas biggrin.gif

Thanks!
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post #2 of 71 Old 05-31-2014, 03:32 AM
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Go for SB Ultra 13. It has features you will want to use a 2 channel system (variable high pass)

As for HGS, no +/- so could be anything..

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post #3 of 71 Old 05-31-2014, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Go for SB Ultra 13. It has features you will want to use a 2 channel system (variable high pass)

As for HGS, no +/- so could be anything..
Too expensive, plus I think it would overdrive my small room. And I have Audyssey EQ2 on mah receiver
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post #4 of 71 Old 05-31-2014, 05:41 AM
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With that budget and room, the SB-2000 is a great choice. For a little more, the Rythmik F12 is worth a look also.
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post #5 of 71 Old 05-31-2014, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boomybass View Post

Too expensive, plus I think it would overdrive my small room. And I have Audyssey EQ2 on mah receiver

My room is half the size of yours, and I have the SB Ultra 13. Not overkill.

In fact got SVS 12" and for that size room, for movies, it's dissappointing. For music it's great.

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post #6 of 71 Old 05-31-2014, 06:35 AM
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Chest thump is the product of one thing....high enough SPL.  In that case, I would recommend looking towards subs with the highest output with low distortion...i.e. high CEA2010 output.  SB13 Ultra would have been a good choice, but is out of the budget.

 

One of the highest output sealed subs under $1k is likely the PSA XS15se, recently upgraded with a much better driver which plays cleaner.

 

I would also take a look at  Rythmik's F15HP, which should be similar in output to the PSA.  

 

Both of these options will likely have very high output to provide the chest thump you are looking for, and play low and clean.


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post #7 of 71 Old 05-31-2014, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone have SB-13 ultra for sale?
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post #8 of 71 Old 05-31-2014, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone have experience with tactile transducer? I think I'll go for SB-2000, and buy ButtKicker in the case SB-2000 alone doesn't produce enough pressure.
That would be cheaper than ultra, and may yield even better results I hope.

Does tactile transducer feels like a real subwoofer (vibrating inside whole body), or does it just tickle
your buttocks?
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post #9 of 71 Old 05-31-2014, 09:28 PM
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They are better for the very low frequencies that cause rumbling vibrations.  If you want chest thump, again, you just need a lot of output.  SVS makes good subs, but there are other alternatives that will give much higher clean output for the money.  I have witnessed this first hand in my room.  If you ante up to the Ultra series you should get plenty of output.  Just speaking of their cheaper offerings.


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post #10 of 71 Old 06-01-2014, 03:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

They are better for the very low frequencies that cause rumbling vibrations.  If you want chest thump, again, you just need a lot of output.  SVS makes good subs, but there are other alternatives that will give much higher clean output for the money.  I have witnessed this first hand in my room.  If you ante up to the Ultra series you should get plenty of output.  Just speaking of their cheaper offerings.
So, if I understood right, chest thump is directly proportional to the output, aka volume. Is it even possible to achieve the thump in 1000 ft^3 room at volume level, which doesn't damage your eardrums or neighbor-relations? I know that is possible in car, where the bass could be easily felt at pleasant volume. I also wonder, why my 12" cerwins doesn't deliver the thump even at levels, where my ears hurts. I fear same thing would happen with ultra, if the only factor to the thump is max volume. Or is it possible to adjust the subwoofer level, so it plays loud and thumps, and main speakers playing pleasant volume, without sounding unnatural? BTW, can you recommend some better products than SVS?
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post #11 of 71 Old 06-01-2014, 04:10 AM
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I find I get that very tactile feel (even at just moderate volume) whenever I get the frequency response at the listening position nice and smooth free from large peaks and dips. Even just a track with guitar strings being struck, I can feel the energy passing through my body. I don't think it's about having lots of bass output, but rather having the whole frequency response at the same level in balance.
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post #12 of 71 Old 06-01-2014, 04:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I find I get that very tactile feel (even at just moderate volume) whenever I get the frequency response at the listening position nice and smooth free from large peaks and dips. Even just a track with guitar strings being struck, I can feel the energy passing through my body. I don't think it's about having lots of bass output, but rather having the whole frequency response at the same level in balance.
I thought so. There has to be other factor than just a volume. So, to have best prerequisites for thump, you don't necessarily need high power, but flat frequency response (with shallow roll-off I guess) and proper placement. In that aspect, SB-2000 seems to nail it, as it has ultimately flat frequency curve and can still output 1000 W peak.
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post #13 of 71 Old 06-01-2014, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boomybass View Post

 BTW, can you recommend some better products than SVS?

+1 to what Kiwi2 said about getting a smooth response.  This will likely require two subs, measurement ability, and eq.  Otherwise you are very likely to have a null or dip right in the range needed for that chest thump, which then requires you to double or triple the volume to get even close.  As far as SVS, first let me say that they are good quality subs, but their weakness, until you get into the Ultra lineup, is that their output is sometimes a bit less than some competetitors.  Not retail brands, but other ID companies.  Take a gander at this output chart to compare:

 

Comparison_Mini_Chart_XS15se_v2.png?2134

The other thing that can help a lot with getting that kick in the chest feeling is near field placement.  As in right beside or right behind your seating position.  This can make a drastic difference.

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post #14 of 71 Old 06-01-2014, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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PSA doesn't deliver to Finland frown.gif
How Rythmik F12 / F15 servo subwoofers compares to SB-2000?
Also, could SVS PC12-Plus be a wise choice? It's 12" 800 W cylinder, could be used ported or sealed mode and looks nice:D

Does using ported sub in sealed mode (plugging holes) yield same results as sealed box?
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post #15 of 71 Old 06-02-2014, 04:17 AM - Thread Starter
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I have decided to buy SVS, as they are only quality manufacturer that delivers to Finland. My last question: should I go for:

PC12-Plus: 1400 €
Dual SB12: 950 €
PB-2000: 800 €
SB-2000: 700 €

Objective: CHEST THUMPING bass, tighter the better. 80/20 for music/movies. Spine crushing rumble is a big plus, but not necessary
Facts: Room volume is 1000 ft^3, dimensions are 5 x 3.4 x 2.2 m, the ceiling is sloped almost from the floor to almost to the middle of my room on both sides. Main speakers are 12" cerwin vegas, which doesn't produce the chest thumping bass (due to room shape?). My room is at upstairs, could the resonance of floor affect the performance?
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post #16 of 71 Old 06-02-2014, 04:26 AM
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I've had these SVS subs

PC Plus 20-39
PC Ultra 13
SB 12+
SB Ultra 13

The SB work better for music, if you have a larger room and need extra headroom a ported model offers, go for them. But for a smaller room and a more musical sub, SB is my preference. That room isn't huge, so I think SB Ultra 13 would be good option.

I'd choose one SBU13 over two SB12+.

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post #17 of 71 Old 06-02-2014, 04:35 AM
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Also I think your "chest thumping" bass is probably not what a quality sub offers, you know that boy racer thump thump thump noise..

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post #18 of 71 Old 06-02-2014, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Also I think your "chest thumping" bass is probably not what a quality sub offers, you know that boy racer thump thump thump noise..
No. You have bad subwoofer or placement, if it doesn't thump you
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post #19 of 71 Old 06-02-2014, 12:39 PM
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No. You have bad subwoofer or placement, if it doesn't thump you

hahaha.

yeah SBU13 is a bad sub all right.

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post #20 of 71 Old 06-02-2014, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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hahaha.

yeah SBU13 is a bad sub all right.
You probably have misconfigured the sub
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post #21 of 71 Old 06-02-2014, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
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You probably have misconfigured the sub

nope.

that thump thump thump boy racer effect- I don't get that.

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post #22 of 71 Old 06-02-2014, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
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+1 to what Kiwi2 said about getting a smooth response.  This will likely require two subs, measurement ability, and eq.  Otherwise you are very likely to have a null or dip right in the range needed for that chest thump, which then requires you to double or triple the volume to get even close.  As far as SVS, first let me say that they are good quality subs, but their weakness, until you get into the Ultra lineup, is that their output is sometimes a bit less than some competetitors.  Not retail brands, but other ID companies.  Take a gander at this output chart to compare:

Comparison_Mini_Chart_XS15se_v2.png?2134
The other thing that can help a lot with getting that kick in the chest feeling is near field placement.  As in right beside or right behind your seating position.  This can make a drastic difference.

So Bear you are active on the sub thread and definitely seem to like PSA which makes sense as they make very good subs at great prices - wonder where they learned that smile.gif
The chart you thru up to me seems to be selective in nature, if you look at the measurements from http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems the numbers don't support the extra subs they say needed to match output of one PSA. As someone who just ordered his second sub - a SVS PC12 Plus - please share your wisdom on the numbers posted by PSA. A lot of speaker manufacturers can post numbers that may make their speaker seem superior - curious about the difference and I just can't buy that the Ultra isn't a better sub. Thanks. Steve

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post #23 of 71 Old 06-02-2014, 06:42 PM
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Well, CEA 2010 output data certainly does not tell the whole story when it comes to sub performance, but imo it does cover a lot of it.  You get a pretty good idea of output throughout the entire operating range and how loud it gets within allowable distortion limits.  Data-bass is a very informative sight and useful for getting performance data, but certainly is not the only source of information on subs.  Some manufacturers post their own measurements from in house testing, such as Hsu.  I like some of PSA's subs but I try not to blindly recommend them all the time, but if I feel it is the strongest choice or worth considering I will mention it.  As far as the chart goes, they do not list each individual frequency, but they do list the average just as CEA2010 dictates.  You will notice on Hsu's website that they also list their averages, although they do so along with the individual data points.  Hsu and PSA are the only two companies I know of that list CEA2010 output numbers on their site for all their subs.

 

You can probably check Hsu's website for output on the ULS-15 to check for accuracy of the data.  The SB2000 has output numbers listed in the Audioholics review, and off the top of my head I am not sure where the SB13 has been tested.

 

You can do the same thing for their XV30 comparison chart....the FV15 and VTF15 are both listed on data-bass.

 

If someone is looking for a lot of output from a sub on a budget, I think this is useful information in helping to determine which sub to buy.

 

Hopefully we will see data-bass testing on all of PSA's updated products.  If the testing correlates well, this should be good for the consumer as it provides competition that should cause others to improve the performance of their own products.  :)  After all, if PSA can outperform competitors with made in the USA subs for less money, imagine what can be done with the made in china subs with a bit of competition stirring things up a bit. 


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post #24 of 71 Old 06-04-2014, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I have opportunity to get second hand SB13 Plus for 1000 €. Should I get it or buy new SB-2000 for 700 €?
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post #25 of 71 Old 06-04-2014, 05:55 AM
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I'd go for the SBU13. Is it the new or old model, BASH or Sledge?

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post #26 of 71 Old 06-04-2014, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd go for the SBU13. Is it the new or old model, BASH or Sledge?
sledge
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post #27 of 71 Old 06-05-2014, 03:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Guy at SVS told me to get PB-2000 for HT/music setup with my cerwin-vega xls-12 in 1000 cu feet room.
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post #28 of 71 Old 06-09-2014, 02:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi man. Would SVS PB-2000 + Anti-mode deliver me some serious chest-hitting tight bass in 1000 cu feet sloped ceiling room?
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post #29 of 71 Old 06-09-2014, 06:41 AM
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I went from the sb2000 to the pb2000 for exactly what you are looking for. I was underwhelmed with the sb2000, especially for movies. It had tight, clean bass, but it lacked the heaviness and explosiveness of even the pb1000, which I originally owned. Switching to the pb2000 was like a whole new world. It will kick you in the chest in a small room like that (my room is about the same size). The sound also sounds bigger and heavier. If you have the space, go for the pb2000. I also didn't notice a difference for music between the sb and pb. However, I didn't do critical listening in that regard. Despite that, I think the pb sounds great for music. Soft and subtle when needed but hard hitting as well.
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post #30 of 71 Old 06-12-2014, 02:07 AM - Thread Starter
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So, I have become to conclusion, that I will either get PB-2000 AND Anti-Mode sub-EQ, or dual PB-1000. Both options are about the same price and delivers same extension and pressure. However, apparently dual PB-1000 have better mid-bass slam and smoother FR.

The thing is, that I have tricky listening room: 1000 cubic feet, sloped ceiling (see picture). I have cerwin-vega XLS-12 full range speakers, and I'm a bit disappointed with their performance, as the bass is boomy and lacks tactile response, until played at volume which will make your ears bleed. And even then it sounds boomy. I believe this is due the nulls and peaks caused by sloped ceiling.

I heard that dual subwoofers can deal with problem as such, but how is it possible, when two full-range speakers can't? Does subwoofers interact with the room some way differently than 3-way speaker's long stroke woofer?

So, which would be a better choice to achieve clean, visceral, chest thumping bass in my room; dual subs or more powerful sub + EQ?

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