Dual ChaseHT SS-18.1s to dual PSA XV15se's - worth it? - Page 8 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #211 of 286 Old 06-16-2014, 06:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,434
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
You are stuck on this range. Eljay has stated he loved his friends room that had better bass. It went to 7.9hz! The only upgrade is Uxl's if his don't go high enough. The PSA's for his goals will not be an upgrade and that is because he liked the deep extension.
I already said multiple times the UXL-18 is the best upgrade path for pete's sake. I am just pointing out that the XV subs will have the advantage in the 16-30hz range. Instead of just agreeing with the truth and moving on you keep trying to find another angle to keep the debate going.

Eljays room is not like his friends and I would not be suprised if dual sealed UXL-18's do not perform like the Chase do in his friends room. I am sure they will be a night and day difference, but I doubt there is any pair of 18" sealed subs that are going to put out a ton of output @ 10hz in a room as large as Eljays. The best choice would be to go LLT imo for dual subs.

GP numbers for the sealed UXL-18 are 92db @ 10hz...add 6db for a second. After you factor room gain and subtract for distance I am guessing 104-106db @ 10hz in his room. I would think 4 UXL-18's would be needed for serious 10hz output in Eljays room.

Last edited by basshead81; 06-16-2014 at 06:51 PM.
basshead81 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #212 of 286 Old 06-16-2014, 06:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 2,666
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Sorry man, you xs30 is probably about the same as the chase so if you think that it has puffs of air then you have not experienced a true 10hz theater yet. .
I'd say you are right about that, or pretty close anyway on the low end. I would love to do some accurate testing in a theater with reference capability down to the single digits. However, I can only go by my experience and that of people who have done what I consider accurate tests concerning how noticeable the really low stuff is. Since my XS30 was flat to 10 Hz to over 100 dB in my room, it has a huge advantage over the XV15 below 15 Hz. I went to dual XV15's which of course puts the XS30 at a disadvantage. However, the XS30 should have made some of that difference up with its greater output down to 10. Alas, that was not the case. The dual XV's have literally triple the tactile effect on movies over the single XS30. Of course, the drivers I have are the upgraded versions compared to the XS30.

I am open to the possibility that I may not be right, but I think that people having flat reference capability to 10 Hz and below is simply increasing their clean headroom where it is really noticeable....above 15 Hz. I would not mind at all if I was wrong, and again, would love to experience reference level single digits, and do some HPF's and LPF's on various scenes to compare the effects. I would also want to rule out the possibility of very high level 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortion being produced and noticed, rather than the fundamental. From what I understand, extreme excursion at low frequency is a lot more likely to produce high harmonic distortion.

Part of what reinforces this(to me) is that often times, in blind testing, people are not able to tell which sub extends lower..ported or sealed, and the ported, or even the horns, have more noticeable and tactile effect. This would surely almost always be just the opposite if single digits and low teens added a lot of effect. It makes no sense to me that subs with sharp drop offs below 15 Hz are equally or more impressive on LFE, in blind testing, than subs which extend flat into the single digits. In my mind, if it was that noticeable, the single digit subs should destroy the horns and ported subs in listening tests on lfe.

So MK, I am not trying to argue just for the sake of arguing, but I hope this helps explains why I have the opinion I do. Again, I would love to, and do plan to, explore this area further as there seems to be controversy regarding "how low should you go". Although I don't remember who it was, I do also remember reading a statement from a forum member who LFP'd his reference level single digit system at 15 and basically nothing happened....the drivers went crazy..the output was measured...just not very noticeable.

So again, not trying to get in a pissing match or anything, I just have not seen much yet that convinces me in a factual, scientific way that below 15 does much. In other words..an argument such as "I am flat to 6 Hz with 16-18" subs and it is way more impressive than when I was flat to 15 with two ported subs" does not prove much to me, other than that perhaps the extreme increase in output over 15 Hz is perhaps where the difference lies.

I do remember a G2G where a HPF was put in at 18 Hz and was easily noticed. I would expect this to be the case as 16 and 17 Hz are VERY tactile in my experience. I would like to see this done at 14.

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP


Last edited by bear123; 06-16-2014 at 06:45 PM.
bear123 is offline  
post #213 of 286 Old 06-16-2014, 06:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,434
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 1702
There is plenty of benifit below 15hz being you can build a system that has the displacement to make use of it. Dropping from 15hz down to 10hz is a big difference in displacement required to make use of such extension. A XS30 or a pair of Chase SS18.1 are not good examples to make such an assumption(in the average room). My only issue is 1% of 99% of all blu ray tracks dig below 15hz. For some it is worth it to build a massive system to play everything on the disk as intended. The problem is most of us do not have rooms that we can stuff with lots of subs, let alone the possible structural damage that may occur. I know my windows and walls will not handle the spl it takes to effectively reproduce sub10hz content. Hell 110db's @ 16hz has my windows singing and caused cracks in the dry wall. One day I hope to be able to experience some ultra low frequency at 115+ db.
basshead81 is offline  
post #214 of 286 Old 06-16-2014, 07:06 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,782
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 376 Post(s)
Liked: 521
Notnyt is the one who built ported subs. The reason is he was coming very close to bottoming his subs at 20hz and this is because he runs a very hot LFE and his room is enormous. The cost would have been crazy to double up and much cheaper and easier to do what he did. He needed to do this in his situation. He also added shakers to get that tactile feeling from the low stuff back as well.

Now Eljay has measured his system and if he is off 15 dBs from a bad calibration he is still hitting around 110 dBs from 17-80hz. Listening at MV -15 with the subs hot 6 dBs he still has plenty for his listening levels in the range the PSA has more output so adding more for a range he has enough of to me is no worth it. He liked his buddies deeper extending system so to me that is what he wants. So I he has 110 dBs and changes subs to getting 120 dBs in the same range but listens at 110 dBs it won't matter.
MKtheater is online now  
post #215 of 286 Old 06-16-2014, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
eljaycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,553
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 586
Gentlemen, no fighting, please.

OK, so what I'm going to try to do tomorrow & Wednesday is:
- calibrate the OmniMic as required using my SPL meter;
- take some new measurements;
- run my subs hotter - say, 12dB hot, or 6dB hot + DEQ (which boosts by ~5-6dB) - and see how that sounds at regular and demo listening levels; and, after setting the subs back to 0dB hot,
- try to EQ my system flat to 10Hz and see how that sounds at regular and demo listening levels.

For fun, I'll also try the LPF at 14Hz to see what happens with WoTW at -10dB.

I will report back as soon as I have something to report.

Thanks to all of you once again for your input. :salute:
basshead81 likes this.
eljaycanuck is offline  
post #216 of 286 Old 06-16-2014, 08:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,901
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Liked: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Part of what reinforces this(to me) is that often times, in blind testing, people are not able to tell which sub extends lower..ported or sealed, and the ported, or even the horns, have more noticeable and tactile effect. This would surely almost always be just the opposite if single digits and low teens added a lot of effect. It makes no sense to me that subs with sharp drop offs below 15 Hz are equally or more impressive on LFE, in blind testing, than subs which extend flat into the single digits. In my mind, if it was that noticeable, the single digit subs should destroy the horns and ported subs in listening tests on lfe.
IMO, there's a simple explanation to why the horns and ported subs 'sound' the best at GTGs:

CLEAN OUTPUT

Let's face it, GTG's while fun, are very difficult to put a controlled test together. As a result, they become SPL contests. The subs that "hit the hardest" and "continue to sound better the louder it gets", win the day. In these situations, extension will lose because clean output in the 16 and up range will win because there is just simply more content there in what's being demo'd and we equate louder/cleaner = better.

Now, in MK's and many other's room, there is a point where you have more than enough 16 and up output. More headroom in that range doesn't help at all because you already have more than you can stand! In these room's, I can guarantee you that if you can already hit 130db with very low THD from 16 and up with 5db headroom compared to being able to hit 130db with very low THD from 16 and up with 20db headroom, would not sound at all different. That's why MK and others go the way of sealed to get the few octaves below 16 at very high output.

Bottom line is that a system capable of a clean 130db from 3hz to 100hz will always sound better than a system capable of a clean 130db from 16 to 100hz. All day, every day.

The question eljay has to answer is, what is the max output he likes to listen to and how much clean output and extension does his current system have?

For example, if eljay never listens to above 105db, and he can reach that cleanly from 7-100hz, switching to a ported variant that has more output from 16 and up that has more clean output, but he won't use, doesn't do him any good! In fact, he would be downgrading because of the loss of extension.

The big IF, is what truly is his preference to which he would not go louder, and do his subs deliver it. I know many folks (you included bear) say that they don't go louder than 'x' on the MV, but the truth is, that's likely not true, or it will be short lived once you experience higher clean output. Many call this upgradeitus...
dominguez1 is online now  
post #217 of 286 Old 06-16-2014, 08:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 2,666
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 791
Good points Dom, thanks for your input. I can see that, once you have more than enough clean headroom above 16 Hz, why not go lower. Again, I would be interested in demoing such a system filtered/unfiltered at 15 to see what kind of difference it makes. Seems as though chasing single digits would not be a good idea until you had more than enough headroom than you could ever use above 15 or so? I think for many, myself included, it is/was hard to grasp, initially, how much capability it takes to have clean, uncompressed playback down to 15 Hz or so without compression.

Eljay is -8 from reference at -14 MV, 6 dB hot. This = LFE peaks of 107, plus as much as 5 extra dB from bass redirected from the other channels, if I understand correctly. I know this is not a continuous level of output that is called upon. However, with max burst of 94 dB at 16 Hz, at which point there is probably a lot of compression, do you think he can play clean to 107+ dB down to 15 or 16 Hz? I am thinking no. If he is compressing at say...100 or so, that would be a lot of lost output at his normal listening volume. Not sure if I am estimating things properly. My subs max burst close to 100dB at 16 Hz, and I start getting compression much past 100 dB with duals in my 2525 cu. ft room, with output up to 108 on the highest sweeps I have done with a lot of compression by that point.

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

bear123 is offline  
post #218 of 286 Old 06-16-2014, 10:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,434
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
IMO, there's a simple explanation to why the horns and ported subs 'sound' the best at GTGs:

CLEAN OUTPUT

Let's face it, GTG's while fun, are very difficult to put a controlled test together. As a result, they become SPL contests. The subs that "hit the hardest" and "continue to sound better the louder it gets", win the day. In these situations, extension will lose because clean output in the 16 and up range will win because there is just simply more content there in what's being demo'd and we equate louder/cleaner = better.

Now, in MK's and many other's room, there is a point where you have more than enough 16 and up output. More headroom in that range doesn't help at all because you already have more than you can stand! In these room's, I can guarantee you that if you can already hit 130db with very low THD from 16 and up with 5db headroom compared to being able to hit 130db with very low THD from 16 and up with 20db headroom, would not sound at all different. That's why MK and others go the way of sealed to get the few octaves below 16 at very high output.

Bottom line is that a system capable of a clean 130db from 3hz to 100hz will always sound better than a system capable of a clean 130db from 16 to 100hz. All day, every day.

The question eljay has to answer is, what is the max output he likes to listen to and how much clean output and extension does his current system have?

For example, if eljay never listens to above 105db, and he can reach that cleanly from 7-100hz, switching to a ported variant that has more output from 16 and up that has more clean output, but he won't use, doesn't do him any good! In fact, he would be downgrading because of the loss of extension.

The big IF, is what truly is his preference to which he would not go louder, and do his subs deliver it. I know many folks (you included bear) say that they don't go louder than 'x' on the MV, but the truth is, that's likely not true, or it will be short lived once you experience higher clean output. Many call this upgradeitus...
Thats just it tho, those subs aint going to hit 105db @7hz, 10hz, or 12hz. Look at the ground plane numbers and do the math for a 3400^3 room. Extension down to 7hz is meaningless @ 85-90db. From everything I have read and researched you need more then 105db from 10hz down for it to be noticeable. So the loss of extension is moot. If Eljay truly wants single digit output its going to take 4 UXL-18's.
Billy p and cel4145 like this.
basshead81 is offline  
post #219 of 286 Old 06-16-2014, 10:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,434
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 1702
Just wanted to add that MK you were right, it looks like PSA just edited the website numbers to reflect a 2.5-3db difference between the XV15se and XV30se across the board...which makes sense, I was just going off of the website data that has been that way since the SE model dropped.
basshead81 is offline  
post #220 of 286 Old 06-16-2014, 11:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tvuong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,736
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
Liked: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
I'll start thinking about maybe starting with an FV15HP and adding another one later on.
Your option just gets $300 cheaper if you can wait till Thanksgiving as Brian announced this earlier from the Rytkmik owner thread
'FVX15 (DS1502 aluminum driver + HX405 amp). This has the same enclosure size as FV15HP. But the new amp without PEQ control can make it more affordable. The price should be around $999, plus $140 shipping. In terms of compromise over FV15HP other than driver and PEQ, the extension setting will have 1port music, 1port HT, and 2port. There will be no independent damping and extension filter control.'
If it can perform like the FV15hp which Brian seems to indicate, you are looking at 104db at 16 and 98.5db at 12.5 GP with one sub or may be a bit less. Running dual of those (10% off on BOTH subs if purchased at the same time saves you an additional $200) might get to the level you would like in your room. Or get the FVX15 kits to save even more when it's available.
tvuong is online now  
post #221 of 286 Old 06-17-2014, 12:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,434
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 1702
I like the sound of the FVX15...
basshead81 is offline  
post #222 of 286 Old 06-17-2014, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
eljaycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,553
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1
The question eljay has to answer is, what is the max output he likes to listen to and how much clean output and extension does his current system have? ...
Thanks for your post. I'll try to get more-accurate measurements to help answer these questions.

All I can say for certain is that on my calibrated system, with the subs 6dB hot, and at a regular listening level of between -18dB to -16dB, I'm missing:
- mid-bass "slam"; and
- extension.

A couple of examples:
- WoTW (pod emergence): I get lots of rumble, quite good actually, but I don't really feel the slam like I did in my buddy's room.
- OHF ("Washington Monument collapse): This scene does little to nothing in my room. I can hear some rumble, but I'm not feeling anything.

IOW, as I mentioned previously, what I'm looking for is more and flatter output at least down to the 17Hz I'm currently getting, with additional extension being an added bonus.
- If this is feasible with my current subs (by simply running them even hotter, or by trying to force a 10-100Hz flat EQ and seeing how that sounds), great.
- If it's not, and if the XV15se's represent a worthwhile upgrade, great.

If the XV15se's aren't the answer, maybe UXL's are the next step.

Or maybe...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong
Your option just gets $300 cheaper if you can wait till Thanksgiving as Brian announced this earlier from the Rytkmik owner thread 'FVX15 ... '
. . .
Running dual of those (10% off on BOTH subs if purchased at the same time saves you an additional $200) might get to the level you would like in your room.
Thanks for the tip! It sounds very intriguing, and I can wait (if necessary).
eljaycanuck is offline  
post #223 of 286 Old 06-17-2014, 01:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kini62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 3,312
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 310 Post(s)
Liked: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
Thanks for your post. I'll try to get more-accurate measurements to help answer these questions.

All I can say for certain is that on my calibrated system, with the subs 6dB hot, and at a regular listening level of between -18dB to -16dB, I'm missing:
- mid-bass "slam"; and
- extension.

A couple of examples:
- WoTW (pod emergence): I get lots of rumble, quite good actually, but I don't really feel the slam like I did in my buddy's room.
- OHF ("Washington Monument collapse): This scene does little to nothing in my room. I can hear some rumble, but I'm not feeling anything.

IOW, as I mentioned previously, what I'm looking for is more and flatter output at least down to the 17Hz I'm currently getting, with additional extension being an added bonus.
- If this is feasible with my current subs (by simply running them even hotter, or by trying to force a 10-100Hz flat EQ and seeing how that sounds), great.
- If it's not, and if the XV15se's represent a worthwhile upgrade, great.

If the XV15se's aren't the answer, maybe UXL's are the next step.

Or maybe...

Thanks for the tip! It sounds very intriguing, and I can wait (if necessary).
What volume is your "buddy" running in his room?
Mid bass slam requires sufficient volume. I don't think you can realistically expect to feel the slam in your chest bass at -16db MV. If you run the bass hot enough to feel it at that MV then the whole sound field is messed up and way out of balance. IMO you need to crank up the MV along with the subs in order to get what you want.

Same thing with the OHF monument scene. The lower the frequency the more volume it takes to be heard or felt. You're just not running enough MV to get what you're after.

I run my subs hot and get what you are looking for at MV of 15db-10db, but my room is 1650^3 feet closed off to the rest of the house.

Crank it up!

Klipsch RF-62II, RC-500, RS-400, SVS PC12+,
Def Tech SC8000
Harman Kardon AVR 1600
PS3, Apple TV, Sharp 70" Qattron
Kini62 is online now  
post #224 of 286 Old 06-17-2014, 02:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dsrussell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Corona, CA.
Posts: 1,750
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 475 Post(s)
Liked: 500
Eljay. What a beautiful home theater! Exceptional!!

I'm surprised you're not getting the tactile feel from the Chase you had hoped for. I suspect you've tried everything imaginable and will continue to do so until all is lost. All I know is that room DESERVES the best subwoofers you can afford.
dsrussell is online now  
post #225 of 286 Old 06-17-2014, 02:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Luke Kamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,190
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Time to start looking into room treatments to get rid high gain early reflections and ringing. This will allow for higher listening levels that aren't fatiguing.
Luke Kamp is offline  
post #226 of 286 Old 06-17-2014, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
eljaycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,553
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
What volume is your "buddy" running in his room? Mid bass slam requires sufficient volume. I don't think you can realistically expect to feel the slam in your chest bass at -16db MV. If you run the bass hot enough to feel it at that MV then the whole sound field is messed up and way out of balance. IMO you need to crank up the MV along with the subs in order to get what you want.
- He ran his system at ~12dB, maybe -10dB.
- His room was ~2,025 cu.ft. and sealed vs. my ~3,400+ cu.ft. and not quite sealed.
- And he ran Chase SHO-10s across the front, which were much cleaner sounding at louder volumes than my Paradigm Studio 60v4s.

I know the problem with going too hot is that it throws off the balance, but cranking everything up makes listening just a little less comfortable than I would like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
Eljay. What a beautiful home theater! Exceptional!!
Thank you kindly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell
I'm surprised you're not getting the tactile feel from the Chase you had hoped for. I suspect you've tried everything imaginable and will continue to do so until all is lost. All I know is that room DESERVES the best subwoofers you can afford.
It does...and so do I. And getting there - within a reasonable budget - is my goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post
Time to start looking into room treatments to get rid high gain early reflections and ringing. This will allow for higher listening levels that aren't fatiguing.
I have considered this before, but never seriously. If I can find some attractive-looking and reasonably-priced panels, I guess I could go with a panel on each of the left and right walls, forward of the speakers (click on my sig to see pics of the room). But I have no interest in panels on the ceiling or elsewhere in the room.
eljaycanuck is offline  
post #227 of 286 Old 06-17-2014, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
eljaycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,553
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 586
First thing I did tonight:
- I fired up the OmniMic software ("GUI"), bumped the mic level in Windows from 33% to 100% and ran a test tone off the OmniMic disc.
- I placed the SPL meter next to the OmniMic ("Mic") and compared the levels. The Mic levels were high.
- I killed the GUI, started it up again and checked the mic level in Windows. It was at 33% (perhaps that's the default setting?), so I left it there.
- I ran the test tone again and compared the Mic level to the SPL meter. Peaks were the same (within about 1dB).
- So I ran a sweep at 0dB and +13dB, with miniDSP on, Audyssey off, the subs 0dBs hot and no smoothing. See the curves, below.

Next:
- I re-set the miniDSP to factory settings and adding a 14Hz LPF (default slope of 48dB/oct).
- Then I ran the same full-range tone, as above, at 0dB.
- There was essentially no sound being produced. (I could hear the very faintest pulsing, and when I touched the drivers, I could feel them moving very slightly.)

Finally:
- I modified the LPFs to 20Hz w/ a slope of 12dB/oct and re-ran the sweep at 0dB.
- I could hear the pulsing clearly, and the Mic showed a peak of 61dB at 17.5Hz.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	FRat0and13audoff.jpg
Views:	31
Size:	89.8 KB
ID:	122882  

Last edited by eljaycanuck; 06-18-2014 at 05:22 AM.
eljaycanuck is offline  
post #228 of 286 Old 06-17-2014, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
eljaycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,553
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 586
Last test for the night: A sweep at -10dB and 0dB, Audyssey off, subs 0dB hot, no smoothing, and a low-shelf boost from 100Hz w/ 16dB gain and a Q of 0.5. (I also tried with a Q of 2 (the max the miniDSP would allow), but all that did was elevate the curve - it didn't alter the shape in any way.)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	lowshelf0and-10dB.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	84.9 KB
ID:	122914  

Last edited by eljaycanuck; 06-18-2014 at 05:25 AM.
eljaycanuck is offline  
post #229 of 286 Old 06-17-2014, 08:24 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,782
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 376 Post(s)
Liked: 521
It still looks off, a MV -10 dBs with a flat setting should produce 105 dBs unless your MV at 0 is not reference.
MKtheater is online now  
post #230 of 286 Old 06-17-2014, 11:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 2,666
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
It still looks off, a MV -10 dBs with a flat setting should produce 105 dBs unless your MV at 0 is not reference.

I admit I may not understand this correctly, but I don't see why 0 MV would play 115 dB through the LFE channel. Isn't it 95 dB plus maximum of +20 dB peaks of 115 as dictated by the LFE signal?

Without running my subs hot, I would be just over 100 dB from my subs with a 0 MV sweep.

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

bear123 is offline  
post #231 of 286 Old 06-18-2014, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
eljaycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,553
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 586
I'm confused. I've got two different curves measured at 0dB MV, Audyssey off:

1. In post 153, the peak is at 105dB. (The mic level in Windows is bumped to 100%.) I was told that this curve too high, and that I needed to check the OmniMic level against my SPL meter.

2. Last night, after ensuring that the OmniMic was showing the same levels as my SPL meter, the peak is at 80dB. (The mic level in Windows is left at the default setting of 33%.) This curve seems to be too low.

What am I missing here?

Last edited by eljaycanuck; 06-18-2014 at 06:04 AM.
eljaycanuck is offline  
post #232 of 286 Old 06-18-2014, 06:55 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,782
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 376 Post(s)
Liked: 521
The level at reference is maximum 115 dBs with sweeps or should be by that is win a 0 dBFS input signal. So if you are getting 85 dBs at MV 0(if 0 is reference) then your signal should be at -30 dBs. Not many use a 0 dBFS at MV 0 because you could clip the input signal.

As for mid bass slam, if you don't get it with these you won't get it with LMS or UXL drivers as the CHT drivers excel at mid bass over everything else they provide. I don't recall Pod Emergence having or being a mid bass monster, the 5-40 hz though is monster!
MKtheater is online now  
post #233 of 286 Old 06-18-2014, 07:25 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,760
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 249 Post(s)
Liked: 781
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
As for mid bass slam, if you don't get it with these you won't get it with LMS or UXL drivers as the CHT drivers excel at mid bass over everything else they provide.
No doubt. You clearly have enough SPL for that from the CHTs. Why not experiment with a house curve with some midbass emphasis from 50 to 80hz and see what happens? Just because everyone on AVS is sort of obsessed with achieving a flat response doesn't mean you might not prefer a house curve.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
HT: Energy RC-50, RC-LCR, Veritas VS Surrounds | Dual CHT SS 18.1s | Denon AVR-888 | modified Dayton SA1000 | Antimode 8033C
Desktop: CBM-170 SE | SVS SB-1000 | Audio-GD NFB-11 | HK 3390
Headphone & Portable HE-400 | K612 Pro | HP150 | DX50 | E12
cel4145 is offline  
post #234 of 286 Old 06-18-2014, 08:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
nube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 1,382
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Liked: 447
People get hung up on numbers a lot in this hobby. Numbers are important when comparing the theoretical capabilities of subs, for sure, but it's not necessarily important for each listener in their room. For instance, I have a system that's flat to at least 5Hz, but not at reference. Playing at reference is completely useless for me, though, because I almost never have the master volume set above -20MV with the subs at main level or +2dB hot (I think I've had it at -15 twice since I've lived in this house). I'm super sensitive to smell, taste, and sound, and have mains that definitely can exceed reference in a far larger room - but my ears simply can't take it.

That said, even at -20MV, there's an enormous difference between a presentation with 10Hz and under content and that without. You wouldn't notice it if your response rolls off terribly, especially at the levels I listen at, but you simply don't need 128dB@3Hz capable systems (the max theoretically asked of a subwoofer system via Dolby specified bass redirection in a 7.1 mix) to get most people to notice it. Headroom is good, but shooting for 100dB @ 10Hz is probably right at or slightly more than what's necessary for folks who can't or don't run their systems close to reference levels.

And, for the record, I could double my output simply by rewiring the coils and running the EP4000 in bridged mode (a big hassle, two person job), but there are only a couple of scenes where I've run out of juice at -20MV, so I'm in no rush. I think Eljay would see an enormous upgrade down low by replacing those SS-18.1s with UXL-18s to get 100-105dB @ 10Hz, do so at or under budget (especially after resale of the CHT subs), and have the potential for vastly increasing WAF if the cabs are made locally out of good wood that can be stained/dyed.
bossobass, dsrussell and Luke Kamp like this.
nube is offline  
post #235 of 286 Old 06-18-2014, 08:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
nube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 1,382
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Liked: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
I'm confused. I've got two different curves measured at 0dB MV, Audyssey off:

1. In post 153, the peak is at 105dB. (The mic level in Windows is bumped to 100%.) I was told that this curve too high, and that I needed to check the OmniMic level against my SPL meter.

2. Last night, after ensuring that the OmniMic was showing the same levels as my SPL meter, the peak is at 80dB. (The mic level in Windows is left at the default setting of 33%.) This curve seems to be too low.

What am I missing here?
If your Omnimic and SPL meter are showing the same levels, then that measurement is correctly calibrated no matter what the Windows volume is set to. That's why I mentioned it's easy to game the system just by not knowing or making a mistake.

80dB is still pretty loud, ceteris paribus.
nube is offline  
post #236 of 286 Old 06-18-2014, 08:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,434
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I admit I may not understand this correctly, but I don't see why 0 MV would play 115 dB through the LFE channel. Isn't it 95 dB plus maximum of +20 dB peaks of 115 as dictated by the LFE signal?

Without running my subs hot, I would be just over 100 dB from my subs with a 0 MV sweep.
A measurement sweep is like a peak...if your AVR is calibrated as MV 0 being reference then you should see 115db from the sub channel @ MV 0. Your 373 is not neither was my 467, but my 773 is.

I think this is only a feature in the higher end models on Yamahas not sure about other AVR's.
basshead81 is offline  
post #237 of 286 Old 06-18-2014, 08:36 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,782
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 376 Post(s)
Liked: 521
I agree with Nube, you will never notice the low end if you are not flat there no matter what level you play.
I wan Eljay to EQ his subs so they are flat to 10hz which means brining down the top end. If he can do that and still watch at his levels he may get every big he wants, if it can't go to his levels(restricted by 10hz) then he needs to upgrade. When calibrated correctly reaching 80 dBs with master volume at reference means the signal must be at -35 dBs. Is it, if not then you are not calibrated correctly.
MKtheater is online now  
post #238 of 286 Old 06-18-2014, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
eljaycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,553
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater
I wan Eljay to EQ his subs so they are flat to 10hz which means brining down the top end.
That's on my agenda for tonight:
- figure out how to generate the correct file using OmniMic;
- generate and export the file; and
- import it into the miniDSP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater
When calibrated correctly reaching 80 dBs with master volume at reference means the signal must be at -35 dBs. Is it, if not then you are not calibrated correctly.
How do I determine the level of the signal?

I'd measure it using my SPL meter or OmniMic but, ummm, that doesn't seem to have worked out well so far...

Last edited by eljaycanuck; 06-18-2014 at 10:49 AM.
eljaycanuck is offline  
post #239 of 286 Old 06-18-2014, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
eljaycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,553
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 586
So far:
- I took measurements at the center, left and right positions of my MLP;
- generated the average curve;
- used the OmniMic's advanced EQ function to auto-generate the biquads for a flat FR from 10-100Hz;
- exported and save the biquads as a TXT file (the only option allowed); and
- tried to load the file into miniDSP.

At this point, I'm stuck, because the miniDSP froze on an error screen indicating "missing biquad values" and I can't get past the screen to do anything else. I created a post in the Software support section of their forum and I'm waiting for help.
eljaycanuck is offline  
post #240 of 286 Old 06-18-2014, 06:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 2,666
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
A measurement sweep is like a peak...if your AVR is calibrated as MV 0 being reference then you should see 115db from the sub channel @ MV 0. Your 373 is not neither was my 467, but my 773 is.

I think this is only a feature in the higher end models on Yamahas not sure about other AVR's.
Maybe the calibration on my umik-1 is affecting things...it is set to -12 dB so perhaps it is lowering the signal by 12 dB? This might be why I am recording levels of around 100 dB at 0 rather than 115. In REW, under sweep level, it is set to -12 dB FS. Is this lowering the output at 0 MV by 12 dB from what it should be?

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

bear123 is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers
Gear in this thread - SS-18.1s by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off