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post #1 of 23 Old 06-14-2014, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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2 subs versus 1

What is better. The best sub you can buy for 800 or the best sub you can buy for 400 times two.

Thanks in advance,
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post #2 of 23 Old 06-14-2014, 12:58 PM
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^^ Depends on what you want and the sub(s) you are considering. Your room size will help determine also.
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post #3 of 23 Old 06-14-2014, 01:03 PM
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I agree room size is critical but usually 2 subs is better to help even out the bass in your room. But if you have to take a big drop in sub quality I would go with the better sub and start saving your pennies for a second one later.
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post #4 of 23 Old 06-14-2014, 01:06 PM
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And whether you are able to have space for two, or if the best place for the second place is in fact possible placement (ie in front of fireplace)

I went for a single SB Ultra 13, rather than two SB2000.

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post #5 of 23 Old 06-14-2014, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
And whether you are able to have space for two, or if the best place for the second place is in fact possible placement (ie in front of fireplace)

I went for a single SB Ultra 13, rather than two SB2000.
I originally started out with an SVS 20-39pci. Worked well for me but the wife hated it due to the height. I sold it on CL and and purchased a new pb2000.

The SVS rep acutally told me that the pb would out perform the 20-39 but to me this was not the case. I returned it and now I'm thinking about trying two subs.

The room is fairly large with vaulted ceilings.
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post #6 of 23 Old 06-14-2014, 01:22 PM
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List the room dimensions, H X W X L. This will really help get the right subs for the room. Otherwise it is trial error.

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post #7 of 23 Old 06-14-2014, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
What is better. The best sub you can buy for 800 or the best sub you can buy for 400 times two.
Assuming the same frequency response probably 400x2. Chances are the two less expensive subs will go just as loud, if not louder, than the one more expensive sub, and you have the benefit of smoothing room response with two. Use the measured output specs at data-bass.com to compare low frequency extension and output, then keep in mind that two subs will go 6dB louder than one.

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post #8 of 23 Old 06-14-2014, 08:17 PM
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Only issue with 2 $400 subs is that you'll be giving up LF extension for output unless you go the dyi route.

I'd get the best $800 sub you can and then plan on adding another.

My room is a sealed 1650 cubic ft and I'm running a PC 12+ and a deftech super cube 8000 and my klipsch RF62s as large and I don't have enough headroom for movies with significant content under 20hz. Of course the deftech signs off in the low 20s so anything under that is all on the SVS.
I'd take a look at a PSA xv15se for just over your budget for starters.
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post #9 of 23 Old 06-15-2014, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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The room is 3800 cubic feet.

I was thinking about two Bic PL200s
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post #10 of 23 Old 06-17-2014, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Assuming the same frequency response probably 400x2. Chances are the two less expensive subs will go just as loud, if not louder, than the one more expensive sub, and you have the benefit of smoothing room response with two. Use the measured output specs at data-bass.com to compare low frequency extension and output, then keep in mind that two subs will go 6dB louder than one.

I agree with this as long as the sound quality is comparable. As we all know, price is not a good indicator of sound quality. If there is a difference in sound quality, I would take the better sounding single sub every time.
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post #11 of 23 Old 06-17-2014, 07:39 AM
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I was in the same predicament about a week ago. I decided to go with 2 subs to even the bass in the room, now I'm debating over the Klipsch SW-450 or the Polk Audio PSW-110
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post #12 of 23 Old 06-17-2014, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
The room is 3800 cubic feet.

I was thinking about two Bic PL200s
Go with a SVS PB200 or HSU VTF-3 Mk4

BTWs the PL200 sell for around $280 each.
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post #13 of 23 Old 06-17-2014, 08:24 AM
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That is a pretty big room. The BIC and other budget subs may work well in that room but, you are not going to get the real deep stuff to really shake a room. Even the HSU and SVS lowest subs in the line will not give you that. It is kinda like a small BMW, it is still a small car.

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post #14 of 23 Old 06-17-2014, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
What is better. The best sub you can buy for 800 or the best sub you can buy for 400 times two.

Thanks in advance,
If I were faced with that scenario, no question, I'd go (2)$400.


A smooth and even response is ideal, and the room absolutely dominates the bass response.


1.) The frequency of room modes is determined by the room's dimensions.
2.) How powerfully they're excited depends on subwoofer position.
3.) And lastly, the degree of audibility depends on the listener's position.


Knowing these facts and by employing some best practices, one can achieve big performance benefits by using two subwoofers instead of one.


Those that study such things, assign a significant percentage of importance to the bass range, with regard to subjective enjoyment of the experience. Also, it's also widely known that for a pleasing experience the frequency response should be relatively smooth through the bass range. The large wavelengths in the subwoofer range bounce around and double back creating room resonances, with big peaks at some frequencies, and deep nulls/cancelations at others. Since acoustic treatment of the huge wavelengths is difficult at best, it's prudent to alleviate these room issues with careful placement strategies using multiple subs.


With any subwoofer, if you locate the sub at the pressure minimum of the mode, it helps in not driving the mode to it's maximum. With two subs, you can place them in opposite sides of a particular room dimension. In doing so, you take advantage of the fact that each end of a standing wave creating a null possess opposing polarity. Such placement evens out that acoustic polarity issue, thus lessening the destructive peaks and nulls in the frequency response that come from dimension of the room.


So, whichever dimension of your room (left-to-right, front-to-back, etc.) is responsible for the biggest deviation in frequency response, place your subs on each side of that axis.


So yeah, I'd go with two subs over one. (I'd recommend two flat pack subwoofer kits like those at diysoundgroup, or Parts Express, with an INuke 3000 DSP amp, so you can both EQ for the small enclosure, and dial in a smooth response, all that for $800)


Below is the ready to assemble flat pack, and subwoofer driver. Those unfamiliar, these are highest quality, nicely CNC cut.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...kage--300-7093




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post #15 of 23 Old 06-17-2014, 12:17 PM
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If you can DIY, I'd go two subs over one for $800 total.

With ID, I would possibly go with one sub over two at that price point. One $400 retail/ID sub is not going to extend deep enough as a single $800 sub...output over 30 Hz might be the same, and response smoother, but I would want the output below 25Hz that the $800 sub, that no amount of $400 subs will give you(unless DIY). $1000 or higher might be a different story, as you can start getting decent entry level home theater subs at the $500/each price point.

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post #16 of 23 Old 06-17-2014, 12:19 PM
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AFAIK, there are no absolute rules in how many subs are required. As others have indicated, the general rule is that it depends upon room volume and shape. Whether the room is closed off or open to other rooms. How large of a seating area that needs to be covered. Plus what one is seeking in a subwoofer and whether it's for mostly music or mostly movie LFE. Most people here have home theaters and need a fairly large area of solid coverage for multiple seating locations. Multiple subs give you the best chance to do this successfully, be it two, three or more. Other people may have a limited seating area and a room size/shape where one sub will do the job just fine if the sub is properly located.

To answer your specific question (one $800 sub vs. two $400 subs), FOH's response was detailed and helpful, as were most of the responses. I can only say we all have personal preferences and unique environments. One needs to answer the two vs one question by trying out both situations. That should be simple to do. The obvious answer is if you have found the best sonic location for your sub and you're not happy because of uneven bass at the listening position(s), add another sub. If you've located the sub at the best position and you're not happy because you don't get good tactile feel and the "thunder" you expect, go for the better sub.
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post #17 of 23 Old 06-17-2014, 12:31 PM
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Purchase four of these, a couple of iNukes, and a bottle of Gorilla Glue :

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/ported-...narchy-th.html

It will probably sound better than any of the single-sub options you mentioned in terms of extension and room response. You would only give up some SPL. Can also finish them in a way so they act as speaker stands or end tables.

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post #18 of 23 Old 06-17-2014, 07:50 PM
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there are really few subs that are "good" in the $400 range, and even if you went two of those i would bet dollars to donuts that you will be upgrading sooner than you think. the sound quality can't be overstated, and i just don't personally believe you can get "good" from $400. i'm sure some have their favorites and will say good for the price, but at the end of the day i would take sound quality of a $6-800 single sub now, then save up for a second later. the PSA xv15SE is a very good sounding sub, and it may very well be all that you need or want to begin with. if you decide you need smoother response, then get a second later. trust me, you will be much happier in the long run.
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post #19 of 23 Old 06-18-2014, 05:40 AM
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If you can place the sub near the listening position, you are more likely to be able to get good results from one sub.
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post #20 of 23 Old 06-18-2014, 05:57 AM
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I would spend at least $600 on one sub now. This should yield meaningful output down to 20hz. Buy one now and put $200 aside and save for a little while to add a second one in the near future. Most companies will give a discount if you buy multiple subs from them. I know Rythmik gives 10% to returning customers. Others do too, but I'm not quite sure how much they discount. Don't shy away from b-stock either both of my FV15HP's were second hand from Rythmik and in impeccable condition. You will be happy you took this approach. Don't sell yourself short since you have already come from a great sub in the SVS 20-39pci. I like the votes for DIY too, but it's simply not for everyone. Here are a list of great companies to choose from. HSU, SVS, Outlaw Audio, Power Sound Audio, Rythmik.

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post #21 of 23 Old 06-18-2014, 05:59 AM
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If you plan on buying something now and never upgrading, get the two subs. With a single sub, no matter how good it is, you'll have nulls all over your room at varying frequencies. There's no way around it. You can play with placement to help move the nulls around, preferably to spot other than where you sit, but you can't eliminate them.


If you're open to a future upgrade, get a better single sub now and then get a second later.


The DIY subs are a good suggestion if you don't mind getting your hands dirty and likely having something ugly. No offense to the DIY crowd, but with some exceptions, DIY subs typically look like they were made in a garage.
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post #22 of 23 Old 06-18-2014, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
If you plan on buying something now and never upgrading, get the two subs. With a single sub, no matter how good it is, you'll have nulls all over your room at varying frequencies. There's no way around it. You can play with placement to help move the nulls around, preferably to spot other than where you sit, but you can't eliminate them.


If you're open to a future upgrade, get a better single sub now and then get a second later.


The DIY subs are a good suggestion if you don't mind getting your hands dirty and likely having something ugly. No offense to the DIY crowd, but with some exceptions, DIY subs typically look like they were made in a garage.
Most times they are made in garages, and depending on the finish, they often look as good or better than factory subs. All up to the builder.

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post #23 of 23 Old 06-18-2014, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Noman74656 View Post
Most times they are made in garages, and depending on the finish, they often look as good or better than factory subs. All up to the builder.

+1


This offers the assembler/builder/owner, the choice of spending their money where it matters. If subwoofers are integrated within a baffle wall, or placed behind a screen-wall, with an acoustically transparent screen, then the aesthetics matter very little.


Choices, ... things have never been as good for high performance audio at reasonable prices, ... than they are today. Those assemble it yourself subwoofers linked above are extraordinary value, with first rate performance. Just glue them together. AVS'er Erich, and the diysoundgroup website offer off the chart value for HT subwoofers, LCR loudspeakers of all sizes, surrounds, etc.


Now, I understand the appeal for ready made, integrated subs as well. I own multiple direct internet subs (SubMs), in addition to my DIY subs (ie., quad 18" IB, etc). I'm not that knowledgeable with regard to what's currently availed to enthusiasts in the fully extended FR inexpensive subs, in the direct internet marketplace. I suspect SVS, HSU, PSA, Rythmik, and maybe some others have such offerings, but I'm just not up on those recommendations like I once was.


That's why I throw out there the DIY suggestion. With subwoofers, the performance delta between the same expenditure is powerfully tilted toward DIY. A brief example, my IB, with amplification and all parts, was about $1300. That yields 126dB, @1m, @20hz , at a modest low power of only 225 watts per driver. That's an extreme example, but there's countless DIY examples, big and small, with a very helpful community of enthusiasts to help make it happen.


I understand, DIY isn't for everyone. But these days there's essentially tool-less assembly of these high quality flat packs, pick the driver that matches, get an INuke with built in signal shaping/EQ'ing, for an all in one solution. That's but one route, there are many others.
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