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Old 06-26-2014, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Question Sub for Classical Music around $1000 each

Okay, so the time has come and I will finally be getting a Sub for my music room in August. After years of research the Rythmik F12G is my number one choice but being in Canada the end price is a little ridiculous for a 12” sealed sub. Luck would have it that a local aluminum Rythmik F12 is for sale for a little higher than Market value. That got me thinking about new subs around that price.

My new #1 choice is the used Rythmik F12 but for the “same price” I can get a new SVS SB-2000 or PSA XS15se shipped to my house.

I’m open to new subs but please read this whole post before you recommend anything.

My room is 13’ x 16’ x 10’(average sloped ceiling) sealed (near air tight) and soundproofed, this room is only used for 2 channel music or 4 channel SACD or DVD-audio playback. Absorption panels, bass traps, and diffusers will be added over time. My main speakers are larger towers(semi-sealed) that I play full range. My side speakers a larger sealed bookshelves that I also play full range for now. My mains are now in the middle of the room for better sound so I’m now missing a lot of bass. I listen to Classical music and I would like a system that will play my organ stuff flat to 16hz to a Max of 90dbs. I will be changing my speakers to ARX A5’s or A7’s next year (maybe).

For a sub I want people to think that my mains are playing low as opposed to them thinking I have a subwoofer, if that makes sense. My end game is duals but I will be starting with one this year. The sub can be any size and can be super ugly as this room is only for me. I do not have the time for DIY. I like the way sealed speakers play so I want a sealed sub.

I will not be running any room correction unless it is built into the sub. I will run REW to figure out placement. Here is my room so far. For now I’m running a pair of ported 8” JBL speakers as subs just for fun. TV is now out as I just used it for setting up the Receiver and cd player.

Should I stick with a new Rythmik F12g and call it a day?

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Old 06-26-2014, 06:21 PM
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I would go with the Rythmik F12g. It probably won't hit 90 dB at 16 Hz in your room, but if you don't get it, you will always be thinking in the back of your head, "could this be better?". Get it and add another later on to smooth the room response. It's not going to be an output powerhouse though, but the sound quality isn't going to be topped.
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Old 06-26-2014, 07:09 PM
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Your sealed room would be considered on the low end of a medium sized room, so you should see room gain with a sealed design. I didn't see any info on the data-bass site concerning the Rythmik F12G or the SVS SB-2000, so I cannot give you an answer on either of these subs concerning your requirements. The PSA XS15se is on the data-bass site and shows 93.5 dB at 16 Hz. The SVS website claims the SB-2000 is capable of 19 Hz, but I don't see at what output (SPL). Rythmik claims 14 Hz, but again, I don't see the output reading (SPL) at that frequency. I'd call or email both Rythmik and SVS concerning this. Certainly, adding another sub could give you an additional 3 - 6 dB output.

Those who own the subs in question may be able to give you better insight, especially those interested in deep organ music (such as Saint Saen's Organ Symphony).

I just reread your requirements and it turns out you stated a "max" of 90 dB at 16 Hz. I had assumed you meant minimum. Actually, I still think you meant minimum since any sub could give you 16 Hz at less than 90 dB ( a lot less ).

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Old 06-26-2014, 07:25 PM
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What are the main types of music you listen to? Classic Rock, Country, Long Hair, acoustic or Pop won't require a sub that digs very deep. 25Hz will be fine. Highly (or should I say lowly) synthesized or cathedral organ will require lower range subs.


Localization has more to do with your setup than the sub itself. Obviously you want a good sub. The rest is placement, XO level, balanced output, and phase. When it's right, you won't be able to tell you have a sub as the bass will appear to emanate from the mains.


Maybe it's just me, but I prefer 2 channel music played through full range mains.

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Old 06-26-2014, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post
What are the main types of music you listen to? Classic Rock, Country, Long Hair, acoustic or Pop won't require a sub that digs very deep. 25Hz will be fine. Highly (or should I say lowly) synthesized or cathedral organ will require lower range subs.
The title of the thread says "classical music." Your question has been answered.

To the OP's question: I have the Hsu VTF-3 Mk 4. I wanted something that would go down to 16Hz, for 32 ft organ pedals and (specifically) Saint-Saens Sym 3. The Hsu fills the bill. Hsu's website right now is advertising it at $639.
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Old 06-26-2014, 11:47 PM
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I know you want sealed, but the SVS PB-2000 would definitely get you 90db at 16hz. The older model PB12-NSD was measured to hit 93 at 16hz. The PB-2000 has better extension than the PB12 and more output. Certainly should be able to get a little room gain, too.

Meanwhile, since you don't like to run room correction, you might consider a mini-dsp just for the sub. Smoothing the frequency response of the sub will improve the SQ.

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Old 06-27-2014, 12:32 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks so far guys.

90db is my Max, i listen to my symphonyies at 65-80dbs so i'm leaving myself 10db headroom. i will have duals in time.
I do not think i could do a ported sub as i do not really even like ported speakers (i know this is mostly in my head but i really hate boom, it slows down the cellos).
i did listen to a HSU sub years ago and it was okay but port noise was an issue.

I loved the old Paradigm servo 15 version 1 but they are still pricey 20 years later and i think an old sub will break sooner. Rel's 328 was awesome, super tight and sounded like a low speaker but it could not do 16hz.

I only care about a sub that will disappear, and extension. I do not believe spl will be a problem for me as my mains (when they were close to the wall) did not break a sweat down to 32hz at my loudest listening volume.
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Old 06-27-2014, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
thanks so far guys.

90db is my Max, i listen to my symphonyies at 65-80dbs so i'm leaving myself 10db headroom. i will have duals in time.
I do not think i could do a ported sub as i do not really even like ported speakers (i know this is mostly in my head but i really hate boom, it slows down the cellos).
i did listen to a HSU sub years ago and it was okay but port noise was an issue.
It is very unlikely the PB-2000 would suffer from port noise. I have never heard that complaint about those subs.

Higher end ported subs suffer no SQ detriments in comparison to sealed subs in terms of "boom" or "slowing" things down. The bad rap that ported subs get comes from budget ported subs. Read this listening test of the PB12-NSD (the previous version of the PB-2000), and you'll see only good things said about its audio quality :http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer...tening-session

Then again, if you have already convinced yourself that ported subs are always of lower quality, then no sense in going with a sub that you will be psychologically predisposed to believing it will have poorer quality. The mind is a terrible bias on how we interpret audio quality
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Old 06-27-2014, 09:52 AM
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My guess is you won't go wrong with Rythmik.
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Old 06-27-2014, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
thanks so far guys.

90db is my Max, i listen to my symphonyies at 65-80dbs so i'm leaving myself 10db headroom.

I only care about a sub that will disappear, and extension.
That first statement has my head spinning just a tad . I'm really not sure what to make of it, but I suspect it is because you do not want the bass to override your music. Subwoofers come with a gain control to level match your speakers and subwoofer, so you can ensure that it doesn't happen. People buy more expensive subs in order to reach under 25 Hz at sound pressure levels they can actually hear and feel. The more capable a subwoofer is, the deeper it goes with solid output at those subsonic frequencies. As ransac indicated, sub placement is critical (you will need to do a sub-crawl test to find the best sound at your listening position). A second sub is sometimes required if room modes are bad (peaks or nulls that are difficult to get rid of at the listening position no matter where you place your sub), or your room is large (yours isn't) and will add 3 - 6 dB of output as well.

No one wants a subwoofer that is dominate in music, especially classical music, but one can set it up where the subwoofer disappears, except it is affording you those critical frequencies that your main speakers aren't capable of reproducing.

No matter which sub you may choose, a great piece of music to do the subwoofer crawl (most use bass tones/sweeps) would be Francis Poulenc Concerto in G minor, Tempo introduction Largo. It has a sustain 16 Hz organ pedal note that lasts for around 2 minutes. And since it is a very low volume piece, it has a side benefit of locating everything that is rattling in your home.
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Old 06-27-2014, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
It is very unlikely the PB-2000 would suffer from port noise. I have never heard that complaint about those subs.

Higher end ported subs suffer no SQ detriments in comparison to sealed subs in terms of "boom" or "slowing" things down. The bad rap that ported subs get comes from budget ported subs. Read this listening test of the PB12-NSD (the previous version of the PB-2000), and you'll see only good things said about its audio quality :http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer...tening-session

Then again, if you have already convinced yourself that ported subs are always of lower quality, then no sense in going with a sub that you will be psychologically predisposed to believing it will have poorer quality. The mind is a terrible bias on how we interpret audio quality
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nevertheless ... if you would consider a ported sub, the SVS PC12+ would be a fine choice. When I began my and my son's sub upgrade venture, the ported cylinders from SVS were the furthest thing from my mind. I auditioned an SB12NSD, dual SB2000s, and a PB2000 before settling on dual PC12+s ( one for me, and one for James :-)

Saint Seans Sym. #3 ... hmmm ... I've heard a lot about it. So I plugged a port in the PC12+ for a 16hz tuning and sampled some organ music from iTunes ( Barber, Poulanc, and Saint Seans ). At times, I could feel the room fill with sensation, the floor and couch vibrating from those low notes.

I then popped in my Blu-ray of Puccini's Tosca and cued up the final aria from Act 1 (the evil villain Scarpia!)... the organ sounded warm and full, but what was especially forceful were the timpani ... thunderous ! I'm crossing over to my sub at 110hz, so I know it's the PC12+ at work here.

I've found the PC12+ to add significant character and depth to my classical music and opera DVDs and Blu-rays ... it's an all-around performer - well suited for music as well as Home Theater.
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MartinLogan Motion 40s / 30 / LX16s
Marantz SR5007 / UD5007
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SVS PC13ultra

exercise room: MartinLogan LX16s / Dynamo700

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Old 06-27-2014, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
I know you want sealed, but the SVS PB-2000 would definitely get you 90db at 16hz. [URL="http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=66&mset=71"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
It is very unlikely the PB-2000 would suffer from port noise. I have never heard that complaint about those subs.

Then again, if you have already convinced yourself that ported subs are always of lower quality, then no sense in going with a sub that you will be psychologically predisposed to believing it will have poorer quality. The mind is a terrible bias on how we interpret audio quality
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomC1315 View Post
Attachment 138617

nevertheless ... if you would consider a ported sub, the SVS PC12+ would be a fine choice. I've found the PC12+ to add significant character and depth to my classical music and opera DVDs and Blu-rays ... it's an all-around performer - well suited for music as well as Home Theater.
This past X-mas a forum member had me and a few guys from my city over for a movie night. Before the movie we played some music, during the first track I was thinking this sounds good but the bass was a little heavy. And by heavy I mean if I was to walk into the room with a blind fold I would say to myself "WOW, this room has a really awesome clean Subwoofer." Soon after another member asked his to turn the sub off. After turning it off and on over and over and dropping the level we decided to keep it off until we watched the movie. That sub was a SVS PB13 Ultra running super flat, one port open, @ 6dbs hot for the movie. His room was very large but that SVS during the movie was super clean and low and the best I have heard for movies. I would buy that in a heart beat for a HT.

Months ago I went into a high end showroom and tested a few subs. I could not get the settings on a Paradigm Sub 25 or Paradigm Sub 2 to sound right for me for music. It just sounded too much like a subwoofer. Right be for I left the salesman had me listen to a Rel 328 and after about 2 mins (I just turned the level down a bit) it sounded like a great pair of full range speakers. I would close my eyes and I would think that I'm listening to an awesome pair of speakers that could play really low. That Rel could not dig deep but it was nice.

So for me even some sealed subs do not cut it for me. I play in an Orchestra and I know what a cello, double bass, and organ sounds like in person and I’m trying to get a sub to match that. A double Bass will shake the floor but will not be boomy or slow like a bass guitar.
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Old 06-27-2014, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
That first statement has my head spinning just a tad . I'm really not sure what to make of it, but I suspect it is because you do not want the bass to override your music. Subwoofers come with a gain control to level match your speakers and subwoofer, so you can ensure that it doesn't happen. A second sub is sometimes required if room modes are bad (peaks or nulls that are difficult to get rid of at the listening position no matter where you place your sub), or your room is large (yours isn't) and will add 3 - 6 dB of output as well.

No one wants a subwoofer that is dominate in music, especially classical music, but one can set it up where the subwoofer disappears, except it is affording you those critical frequencies that your main speakers aren't capable of reproducing.

No matter which sub you may choose, a great piece of music to do the subwoofer crawl (most use bass tones/sweeps) would be Francis Poulenc Concerto in G minor, Tempo introduction Largo. It has a sustain 16 Hz organ pedal note that lasts for around 2 minutes. And since it is a very low volume piece, it has a side benefit of locating everything that is rattling in your home.
All that I was trying to say was that I do not listen at loud volumes so max SPL for me is low so a Rythmik F25 or F12 should play the same way in my room as I will never get my system over 90dbs in room. Most of my listening is done later at night and being a brass player my ears take a beating already.

I will be getting dual and I will check out that Concerto... going onto Amazon.ca now. thanks
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Old 06-27-2014, 02:19 PM
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^^ You will find a wonderful version of that piece on the SACD of Camillo Saint-Saens Symphony #3 (Philadelphia Orchestra, Christoph Eschenbach, Olivier Latry-Organ).

Enjoy!
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Old 06-27-2014, 02:22 PM
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I very much doubt you'll ever need anything more than dual SB2000 in a music system. But if you fancy raising the bar, dual SB Ultra 13's would be more than plenty but that is over your budget.

I have a SB12+ in the Hifi and even at loud levels that copes easily, I dial it back as I like it in the background not blasting the stereo speakers for every bass note.

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Old 06-27-2014, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
All that I was trying to say was that I do not listen at loud volumes so max SPL for me is low so a Rythmik F25 or F12 should play the same way in my room as I will never get my system over 90dbs in room. Most of my listening is done later at night and being a brass player my ears take a beating already.
Because of the audio sensory capability of the human ear, very low frequencies are not heard nearly as well (although they will be felt) as low and upper bass frequencies and so on. It takes a great subwoofer to reproduce deep 16 Hz organ pedal notes cleanly and loud enough to satisfy, but I know of no speaker system or subwoofer that can match a live concert, especially one with a 32-foot pipe organ.

Rythmik subwoofers are known for their exceptional bass properties, especially for music. Here is a review on two top sealed subwoofers (I happen to own the SVS SB13-Ultra): Rythmik E15 vs SVS SB13 Ultra. It is post #102 .

BTW, I listen to most of my music (including classical) at around 85 dB peaks, which is not too far above your preferred listening volumes. Although I admit there are times when I do go above that
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Old 06-27-2014, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
^^ You will find a wonderful version of that piece on the SACD of Camillo Saint-Saens Symphony #3 (Philadelphia Orchestra, Christoph Eschenbach, Olivier Latry-Organ).

Enjoy!
I have that recording in SACD. Got a couple different ones after I played that pieces years ago. I think I have 4 cd's over the organ symphony including a version that had the organ part added in after the fact. I have also heard demo disc versions that have an artificial organ that sounds super unnatural and wrong but most people would not know and/or like it better.
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Old 06-27-2014, 02:49 PM
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^^ Blacklightning: Somehow, that doesn't surprise me . While classical music isn't my number one entertainment source for music, I do have two different CDs of Rhapsody in Blue/American in Paris and three different CDs of the 1812 Overture. I'm often interested in the conductor's interpretation of a particular piece of music, and prefer some interpretations over others.

BTW, best of luck on your subwoofer search.
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Old 06-27-2014, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I very much doubt you'll ever need anything more than dual SB2000 in a music system. But if you fancy raising the bar, dual SB Ultra 13's would be more than plenty but that is over your budget.

I have a SB12+ in the Hifi and even at loud levels that copes easily, I dial it back as I like it in the background not blasting the stereo speakers for every bass note.
Why does everyone just talk about things being loud. I'm not after more I'm after quality. One SB1000 would be enough for me SPL wise but I'm wanting the best sound possible.

In short will any sub play with more detail than a Rythmik F12/F12G and still be able to play to 16hz.

To me a 6" light paper driver would walk circles around and play with more detail than a F12g between 80-60hz. But to most it would not because it can not play as loud.

Man, I'm getting too worked up... I'm going to calm down now.
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Old 06-27-2014, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
This past X-mas a forum member had me and a few guys from my city over for a movie night. Before the movie we played some music, during the first track I was thinking this sounds good but the bass was a little heavy. And by heavy I mean if I was to walk into the room with a blind fold I would say to myself "WOW, this room has a really awesome clean Subwoofer." Soon after another member asked his to turn the sub off. After turning it off and on over and over and dropping the level we decided to keep it off until we watched the movie. That sub was a SVS PB13 Ultra running super flat, one port open, @ 6dbs hot for the movie. His room was very large but that SVS during the movie was super clean and low and the best I have heard for movies. I would buy that in a heart beat for a HT.

Months ago I went into a high end showroom and tested a few subs. I could not get the settings on a Paradigm Sub 25 or Paradigm Sub 2 to sound right for me for music. It just sounded too much like a subwoofer. Right be for I left the salesman had me listen to a Rel 328 and after about 2 mins (I just turned the level down a bit) it sounded like a great pair of full range speakers. I would close my eyes and I would think that I'm listening to an awesome pair of speakers that could play really low. That Rel could not dig deep but it was nice.

So for me even some sealed subs do not cut it for me. I play in an Orchestra and I know what a cello, double bass, and organ sounds like in person and I’m trying to get a sub to match that. A double Bass will shake the floor but will not be boomy or slow like a bass guitar.
I highlighted what was probably the key difference. To achieve a flat response, you are likely going to have to run EQ on the sub. Good bet that those Paradigms were not putting out a smooth response.

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Old 06-27-2014, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
Why does everyone just talk about things being loud. I'm not after more I'm after quality. One SB1000 would be enough for me SPL wise but I'm wanting the best sound possible.

In short will any sub play with more detail than a Rythmik F12/F12G and still be able to play to 16hz.

To me a 6" light paper driver would walk circles around and play with more detail than a F12g between 80-60hz. But to most it would not because it can not play as loud.
It looks like you are misunderstanding the sound of 60 to 80 Hz. No 6" driver is going to playback that region better than a modestly good 12". 60 Hz is where most 6" driver go to die. Woofer material will not make much difference in this region either. There is zero advantage of small cones with respect to bass.
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:16 PM
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Proper setup of the sub is the key with ported or sealed. Sub EQ has already been mentioned. Subs near the mains will also blend better for music. I listen to a variety of music including some classical. I prefer to use the subs since classical music has a wide dynamic range.

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Old 06-27-2014, 06:36 PM
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I think the biggest difficulty with your goal is that reasonably priced sealed subs will struggle to produce 16 Hz output with extremely low distortion. There are plenty with MAX BURST in that range, but not sure if you would be happy with 20 or 30% distortion. I am assuming that you don't want to hear lots of 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortion when playing 16Hz notes, and many sealed subs are going to have very high harmonic distortion below 20 Hz when attempting to produce a reasonable SPL. You can check the charts on data-bass on several sealed subs such as the SB12-NSD, and see that distortion below 20 Hz tends to be quite high.

Perhaps the Rythmik F12 would play 16 Hz at your preferred volume with very low distortion, but it is hard to say for sure as I have not found definitive output data with distortion measurements.

I think you are on the right track with dual subs....you will gain 6 dB of headroom which should assist with playing nice and clean at the level you need. More importantly, it will allow you to eq a smooth, flat response for the best quality bass possible.

I would be tempted to go with something like the Funk Audio 18.0C, but it will approach the budget that you have set for both subs. The large 18" driver should be able to produce 90 dB at 16 Hz in room with very low distortion. It produces 93 dB in outdoor ground plane testing with reasonably low distortion, so with room gain, it should play very clean at 90 dB. It is MUCH harder for a sealed 12" to produce low distortion 16 Hz output.

So although I am a HUGE fan of dual subs due to the smooth overall frequency response you can get, I think a larger driver should strongly be considered in order to get clean, distortion free 16 Hz output. Small drivers just require too much excursion to keep distortion low at that frequency.

This may not be the solution, but it may be, and I wanted to offer another perspective.
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...id=97&mset=106

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Last edited by bear123; 06-27-2014 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 06-27-2014, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning
Okay, so the time has come and I will finally be getting a Sub for my music room in August. ...

My room is 13’ x 16’ x 10’(average sloped ceiling) sealed (near air tight) and soundproofed, this room is only used for 2 channel music or 4 channel SACD or DVD-audio playback. ... I listen to Classical music and I would like a system that will play my organ stuff flat to 16hz to a Max of 90dbs. ...

I will not be running any room correction unless it is built into the sub. I will run REW to figure out placement. ...
2,080 cu.ft. - not a very large room.

If going over $1,000/sub isn't a major issue, I'd probably go with dual Rythmik F15s, E15HPs or F15HPs. Start with one, add a second one if/when desired.

Plan B: Dual SB-2000s, which should work well in a 2,080 cu.ft. room. According to SVS' specs, the SB-2000 is rated down to 19Hz +/-3dB (2m ground-plane). According to data-bass.com, its predecessor - the less-powerful SB12-NSD - hit 87.7dB at 16Hz.

(SonicBoomAudio offers a 45-day money-back guarantee, with only the cost of shipping - $48 each way, according to SBA - being non-refundable. Not as good as in the States, but not unreasonable for an in-home demo, IMO.)

Plan C: Pick up the F12 listed on CAM, add a second one from Rythmik.

Last edited by eljaycanuck; 06-27-2014 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 06-27-2014, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
It looks like you are misunderstanding the sound of 60 to 80 Hz. No 6" driver is going to playback that region better than a modestly good 12". 60 Hz is where most 6" driver go to die. Woofer material will not make much difference in this region either. There is zero advantage of small cones with respect to bass.
i think you missed the point of want i'm trying to say.
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Old 06-29-2014, 10:20 PM
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Driver size is irrelavent. Most subs have a driver matched to the motor. Most subs sound more a like than different under 40 Hz and within their drive capablilites. I use 18 in. subs and the bass is just as tight, quick and articulates compared to 8-15 in subs that I have owned. Setup will determine the quality of bass in the room more that a particular sub in most cases. In most cases, driver material such as kevlar or treated paper is also irrelavent in terms of SQ.

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Old 07-02-2014, 06:27 AM
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If you are looking for a very 'clean' sound, consider a PPSL subwoofer (or two!):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwo...nclosures.html
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MemX View Post
If you are looking for a very 'clean' sound, consider a PPSL subwoofer (or two!):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwo...nclosures.html
Thanks but I did state that I do not want to do DIY and PPSL does not seem to be popular in the Classical world. I will not be going with a PPSL.
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Classical Sub Update

Well, I have an update on the classical Sub front. The sub Iwas after ended up selling a few days before the guy was going to deliver it tome. After that the company that I work for when Bankrupt and I ended upspending some of my Sub money on a pair of Beyerdynamic DT800 600ohmheadphones. Long story short, after I got a new job I came across an ad for aParadigm Servo 15 Version 1 Sub within my new budget so I ended up gettingthat.

I’m still slowly getting it setup as my room is hard to workwill with bare walls. I’m running into phase problems and bass jumping aroundthe room and in and out of my head.

Also does anyone know What type of glue I should use to reglue part of a dust cap back on?



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16hz , classical , Power Sound Audio , Rythmik , Svs
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