Sub advice needed: Seaton, SVS, PSA, Rythmik for 3800 cu ft dedicated theater space - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 88 Old 07-01-2014, 06:09 AM
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I am out there in left field but with a new theater build, the cheapest and most powerful bass system may be an infinite baffle system for less than one Seaton sub and no need to add more subs later.

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post #32 of 88 Old 07-01-2014, 06:15 AM
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^Indeed, I believe MKtheater built a 8- 18" IB setup for around 3k and it will play 115db down to 5hz with less then 10% thd. Talk about bang for buck...definitely a solid option for dedicated theaters.
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post #33 of 88 Old 07-01-2014, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
The FV15hp edges the xv30se performance based on databass numbers for less plus I do not think the xv30 is attractive. Buy it right the first time, get the dual passive JTR Captivators and an external Behringer iNuke 6000 amp.
There are differences in performance and appearance one must consider between the Rythmik and the PSA, but I don't think $18 is worthy of saying one sub costs less than the other...close enough to the same in my book.

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post #34 of 88 Old 07-01-2014, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you all for your contributions. I believe I have narrowed the choice a bit:

1. Rythmik FV15HP -- I would start with one and then later add another. I still need to speak to Rythmik -- but all signs point to this be one of the best values in the land given its performance.

2. SVS PC13-Ultra -- Same thing, start with one, add another later on. This is a bit of an about face, but I think the furry black water heater would actually tend to disappear into the rear corner of my near-black theater. The output and performance I am told is basically the same as the PB13-Ultra, and its cheaper and easier to deal with.

Thanks again,

CT

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post #35 of 88 Old 07-01-2014, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
There are differences in performance and appearance one must consider between the Rythmik and the PSA, but I don't think $18 is worthy of saying one sub costs less than the other...close enough to the same in my book.
Agreed. I also just want to add I am not implying the PSA is better by anymeans. They both have strengths and weaknesses. The Rythmik excels in the deep bass, the PSA is a monster in the upper bass.

That being said based off of what the OP listed I would strongly consider the FV15HP's since the Caps are not a option.
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post #36 of 88 Old 07-01-2014, 01:46 PM
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Skrill: Big, powerful subs are heavy. That's pretty much the only way to fill a large volume space with bass that is tactile and relevant. Unfortunately, unpacking and moving a sub around isn't fun. To save your back, you need a friend to help you or a hand truck to move it up and down stairs. Once you are in the room where it needs to be setup, lifting a sub on top of your seating position for the subwoofer crawl is a two man job. Once you've determined a few good locations, let the furniture sliders take over.

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And best of luck on your final selection! And let us know what you decide, and when you receive it keep us informed of your progress and how you like your new toy.
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post #37 of 88 Old 07-01-2014, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
PSA's claims of superior performance on their website is revealed as garbage by anyone who knows how to read those measurements.

You've made these trolling comments many times in the past shade and each time I have asked for specifics in what you consider inaccurate on our site. Each time you never offered anything and just rattled off more personal attacks.

What is wrong on our site? We're human, we make typos all the time? Thanks Could you possibly point out any specifics without resorting to your usual trolling/personal attacks? That would be appreciated. Thanks.

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post #38 of 88 Old 07-01-2014, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Agreed. I also just want to add I am not implying the PSA is better by anymeans. They both have strengths and weaknesses. The Rythmik excels in the deep bass, the PSA is a monster in the upper bass.

That being said based off of what the OP listed I would strongly consider the FV15HP's since the Caps are not a option.
You would have to have a seriously biased agenda to look at all the data between these subs and declare one a clear winner. Oh wait....never mind..

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post #39 of 88 Old 07-01-2014, 04:52 PM
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We have been over this before and I have offered specifics many times, and you have ignored them or addressed a strawman on occasion after occasion. For the issue in this thread, it's difficult to see how you can claim 1.1 times the performance of a FV15HP from a XV30. I can see you are using CEA and calling the performance difference the 'PSA output factor'. I have to let you off on a technicality here, as there isn't anything technically wrong with that comparison by the metrics you are using, however the overall picture you are painting to the uninformed is that your product performs 1.1 times that of a FV15HP or 1.3 times that of a PB13 Ultra or 1.6 times that of a VTF15h. When taking in the entire set of performance measurements, that is quite obviously untrue.
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post #40 of 88 Old 07-01-2014, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
You would have to have a seriously biased agenda to look at all the data between these subs and declare one a clear winner. Oh wait....never mind..

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Here is a comment rich in irony. You are claiming not to be biased for the product you are constantly promoting and selling?! You would have to be biased not to see a clear winner. Explain to me how your product, with less extension capability, a less linear and more adversely compressed response, and a worse distortion profile, is somehow right on the level of a FV15HP?
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post #41 of 88 Old 07-01-2014, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
Here is a comment rich in irony. You are claiming not to be biased for the product you are constantly promoting and selling?! You would have to be biased not to see a clear winner. Explain to me how your product, with less extension capability, a less linear and more adversely compressed response, and a worse distortion profile, is somehow right on the level of a FV15HP?
Because none of those things are true. As usual you are picking a few details out of THOUSANDS of possible measurement metrics. Anyone who can read the data can see this. And as usual, your trolling/agenda has left you unable to produce a *single* thing about our website that is inaccurate even though you claim otherwise dozens if not hundreds of times. And, of course, you have never heard a single product you are somehow claiming to "know" which will sound better. New forum software took you off ignore for me....now you go back on. I simply don't have time to argue against your trolling remarks every day. I'm sort of sorry you have dedicated so much of your life to stalking me like this. Best luck with that. For anyone following along, please spend some time and research the posting history of those involved in this dispute and form your own opinions.

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post #42 of 88 Old 07-01-2014, 07:27 PM
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As usual, in place of a cogent defense of exaggerated product claims we have only a personal attack. But leaving with a glib insult was a nice touch, very classy.

Last edited by shadyJ; 07-01-2014 at 11:02 PM.
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post #43 of 88 Old 07-01-2014, 11:00 PM
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As usual, in place of a cogent defense of exaggerated product claims we have only a personal attack. But leaving with a glib insult was a nice tough, very classy.
I'm pretty new here. My newbie sense is that both ShadyJ and Tom V. make some cogent points, but they get lost in what's become a very acrimonious relationship.

As for PSA subs, I've never heard one and am a relative novice to subs in general, but I've read a lot of what's on these forums with interest. My admittedly only mildly educated opinion at this point is that PSA probably makes pretty solid subs, maybe a bit stronger on home theater slam than musical nuance (by design, as best I can tell), but that PSA markets its subs via comparison charts that at best gloss over key factors and at worst are overtly misleading.

But most folks on here seem willing to give PSA a pass for that, perhaps because in other respects that matter more--a solid product, good customer service, etc.--they have a lot going for them. I guess I write this both for anyone who's new to this whole brouhaha and just to articulate my own reactions, having spectated for a while now.
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post #44 of 88 Old 07-02-2014, 02:25 AM
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Wow, this thread is quickly spiraling down into absurdity because no one can seem to keep it on topic. Where have I seen this before? Oh yeah, the last several dozen times ShadyJ interjects his personal agenda against PSA, that's where. Man, this gets so tiring.
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post #45 of 88 Old 07-02-2014, 11:36 AM
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Sorry to get into this, but the only problem I see with shadyJ and PSA, is with the performance charts on some of his sub's, nothing else!

Come on guys I'm a total newbie and I learned several things with shadyJ, Tom V, Ricci, Mark Seaton, basshead81, LTD02, chaluga, bear123, Mrkazador, tuxedo, jbrown15, MKtheater, Bill Fitzmaurice, notnyt, zieglj01, imagic, etc, etc, etc. All are very very important to us in this forum!!!
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post #46 of 88 Old 07-02-2014, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by MDST View Post
Sorry to get into this, but the only problem I see with shadyJ and PSA, is with the performance charts on some of his sub's, nothing else!

Come on guys I'm a total newbie and I learned several things with shadyJ, Tom V, Ricci, Mark Seaton, basshead81, LTD02, chaluga, bear123, Mrkazador, tuxedo, jbrown15, MKtheater, Bill Fitzmaurice, notnyt, zieglj01, imagic, etc, etc, etc. All are very very important to us in this forum!!!

One exception though...all those guys have built & designed subs/ or speakers and have first hand knowledge or better yet..degrees in the field...the fact you clump shady in with those members is laughable...IMO. Please go ahead and ask him what he has built and designed or better yet what drivers has he modded and toyed with...I have a pretty good idea he is your typical keyboard commando or monday morning QB...that's all.
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post #47 of 88 Old 07-02-2014, 03:48 PM
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One exception though...all those guys have built & designed subs/ or speakers and have first hand knowledge or better yet..degrees in the field...the fact you clump shady in with those members is laughable...IMO. Please go ahead and ask him what he has built and designed or better yet what drivers has he modded and toyed with...I have a pretty good idea he is your typical keyboard commando or monday morning QB...that's all.
You are another good member who has experience in these matters.

Yes, I am a complete novice but does not mean that I don't know interpret the knowledge of each person with experience. So, there is no keyboard commando or monday morning my friend Billy.

What I said was that I always see shadyJ having problems or disagreements with the PSA charts but not with PSA subwoofers.
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post #48 of 88 Old 07-02-2014, 04:37 PM
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You are another good member who has experience in these matters.

Yes, I am a complete novice but does not mean that I don't know interpret the knowledge of each person with experience. So, there is no keyboard commando or monday morning my friend Billy.

What I said was that I always see shadyJ having problems or disagreements with the PSA charts but not with PSA subwoofers.
Shady does make some substantive criticisms of the subwoofers, too. My take was that the gist is that he thinks they use cheap components arrayed in a way that produces output at the expense of the quality of that output. I am in no position to judge these criticisms, but unless I'm mistaken, Shady has never seen a PSA subwoofer in person, so they'd have to be based either on photos or knowledge of the particular components used.
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post #49 of 88 Old 07-02-2014, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
Shady does make some substantive criticisms of the subwoofers, too. My take was that the gist is that he thinks they use cheap components arrayed in a way that produces output at the expense of the quality of that output. I am in no position to judge these criticisms, but unless I'm mistaken, Shady has never seen a PSA subwoofer in person, so they'd have to be based either on photos or knowledge of the particular components used.
Fair enough my friend!!

Sorry to change the main subject!!
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post #50 of 88 Old 07-02-2014, 05:36 PM
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My criticism is mainly with their marketing and promotion. Every sub has to make compromises, and one can nit-pick this or that aspect of a sub, but, contrary to the claims of my opponents, I don't and never had a problem with the intrinsic performance of PSA subs. My gripe is their claims to hold multiple times the performance of competing subs, and the misuse of CEA measurements to create this impression for less informed people.
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post #51 of 88 Old 07-02-2014, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
My criticism is mainly with their marketing and promotion. Every sub has to make compromises, and one can nit-pick this or that aspect of a sub, but, contrary to the claims of my opponents, I don't and never had a problem with the intrinsic performance of PSA subs. My gripe is their claims to hold multiple times the performance of competing subs, and the misuse of CEA measurements to create this impression for less informed people.
That's MARKETING. Every company highlights, emphasizes and exaggerates their products strengths. No company points out their product's flaws or weakness. If you don't like exaggerated or unsubstantiated claims, why don't you get on Rythmik for their claim that the servo INSTANTLY corrects for many causes of distortion yet their subs still demonstrate measurable distortion in independent tests. I have never seen a feedback loop make instant corrections. Especially since it must wait for the distortion to exist to make a correction. I am not trying to pick on Rythmik, this is just an example.


Instead of harping, ad nauseam, on SVS and PSA marketing, why don't you emphasize the exaggerated claims of the products and companies you do like. That would create much less acrimony in these threads.
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post #52 of 88 Old 07-02-2014, 09:39 PM
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That's MARKETING. Every company highlights, emphasizes and exaggerates their products strengths. No company points out their product's flaws or weakness. If you don't like exaggerated or unsubstantiated claims, why don't you get on Rythmik for their claim that the servo INSTANTLY corrects for many causes of distortion yet their subs still demonstrate measurable distortion in independent tests. I have never seen a feedback loop make instant corrections. Especially since it must wait for the distortion to exist to make a correction. I am not trying to pick on Rythmik, this is just an example.


Instead of harping, ad nauseam, on SVS and PSA marketing, why don't you emphasize the exaggerated claims of the products and companies you do like. That would create much less acrimony in these threads.
Marketing occurs on a spectrum, and is certainly not a license for making claims without being held to account for them. I mean seriously, if a bunch of sub manufacturers were having drinks, wouldn't the PSA guys be pretty embarrassed about their comparison charts? I'm struck that people seem more defensive of PSA's dubious marketing stuff because Shady seems so insistent in articulating his concerns.

That said, the more interesting question relates to the quality of PSA's subwoofers. I have no insights there, and no particular reason to think they are sub-par. The marketing stuff is a distraction from this more important question. So I'll agree with you that Shady's drumbeat about the sketchy marketing is a distraction from this more important question.

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post #53 of 88 Old 07-03-2014, 06:04 AM
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Let's get back on topic here guys now that we got all that out of the way. Skrill what sub did you end up going with?
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post #54 of 88 Old 07-03-2014, 04:59 PM
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See prime example of an OP abandoning a thread because it got so far derailed....
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post #55 of 88 Old 07-03-2014, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I am still here - a few posts up, I narrowed it to PC13U or FV15HP. Leaning to Rythmik based on performance and value proposition - but just a bit put off by the short amp warranty. Wish they just matched PSA and SVS in terms of warranty.

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post #56 of 88 Old 07-03-2014, 06:29 PM
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Search through the Rythmik thread for amp issues. Good luck finding anything. I can't think of anything else to give you peace of mind other than the fact that Brian (the owner of Rythmik) is a stand up guy. I've seen him go out of his way more than a few times for his customers. Have you seen the components he uses in his amps? They are top notch. Search around.
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post #57 of 88 Old 07-03-2014, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
I mean seriously, if a bunch of sub manufacturers were having drinks, wouldn't the PSA guys be pretty embarrassed about their comparison charts?

Think of it this way. Take all the $500 and up subs, say the PB1000, a PB2000, an LV12R, an XV15, a VTF15, an FV15, and a Captivator 2400. Eq them all flat in the same room, and listen to music and movies at 80 dB. Put them behind a curtain and try to tell the difference. Bet it would by very hard for you to tell which was which. Now go to 90....still gonna all sound quite similar. Now go to 100 dB. Well, the $500 subs are going to start whimping out on LFE scenes. Why? Output. Now go to 110 dB. Most of the subs under $1000 are going to start struggling...the big boys are going to start kicking ass and taking names. Why? Because when it comes to subs, for the most part, the bigger the better. More size, more output, the better you are. The biggest challenge any sub has when it comes to home theater in particular is being able to provide enough clean output capability to meet peoples needs. That why when people upgrade from a $500 sub to an $800 sub to two $800 subs to two $1500 subs, they keep noticing drastic differences. Because maximum clean output, along with enough extension, is the name of the game. If you are spending less than $2500 on a sub, it is likely that many are going to run out of clean headroom at some point. So if you are looking at subs $1500 and under, maximum clean output capability is a pretty darn important performance metric. So in my opinion, the output comparison charts are a pretty valid and important tool provided to customers. Does it tell 100% of the story? No, it is not intended to. But it does tell you which sub is going to step up to the plate and swing for the fence and which one is going to crap out and leave you wishing you had more.

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post #58 of 88 Old 07-03-2014, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Think of it this way. Take all the $500 and up subs, say the PB1000, a PB2000, an LV12R, an XV15, a VTF15, an FV15, and a Captivator 2400. Eq them all flat in the same room, and listen to music and movies at 80 dB. Put them behind a curtain and try to tell the difference. Bet it would by very hard for you to tell which was which. Now go to 90....still gonna all sound quite similar. Now go to 100 dB. Well, the $500 subs are going to start whimping out on LFE scenes. Why? Output. Now go to 110 dB. Most of the subs under $1000 are going to start struggling...the big boys are going to start kicking ass and taking names. Why? Because when it comes to subs, for the most part, the bigger the better. More size, more output, the better you are. The biggest challenge any sub has when it comes to home theater in particular is being able to provide enough clean output capability to meet peoples needs. That why when people upgrade from a $500 sub to an $800 sub to two $800 subs to two $1500 subs, they keep noticing drastic differences. Because maximum clean output, along with enough extension, is the name of the game. If you are spending less than $2500 on a sub, it is likely that many are going to run out of clean headroom at some point. So if you are looking at subs $1500 and under, maximum clean output capability is a pretty darn important performance metric. So in my opinion, the output comparison charts are a pretty valid and important tool provided to customers. Does it tell 100% of the story? No, it is not intended to. But it does tell you which sub is going to step up to the plate and swing for the fence and which one is going to crap out and leave you wishing you had more.
I only half agree with you here. Subs do have a qualitative aspect, so even for the same SPL there is a difference. However I would agree that a big challenge for subs is getting enough output capability for people's needs. Of course, you have to specify which people here. There are a lot of folks for whom their 10" Polk is amazing and is more than sufficient for them.
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post #59 of 88 Old 07-03-2014, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ransac View Post
That's MARKETING. Every company highlights, emphasizes and exaggerates their products strengths. No company points out their product's flaws or weakness. If you don't like exaggerated or unsubstantiated claims, why don't you get on Rythmik for their claim that the servo INSTANTLY corrects for many causes of distortion yet their subs still demonstrate measurable distortion in independent tests. I have never seen a feedback loop make instant corrections. Especially since it must wait for the distortion to exist to make a correction. I am not trying to pick on Rythmik, this is just an example.


Instead of harping, ad nauseam, on SVS and PSA marketing, why don't you emphasize the exaggerated claims of the products and companies you do like. That would create much less acrimony in these threads.
This is IMHO a fantastic post right here. Marketing is designed to do one thing...sell product. I can't tell you how many times i have seen marketing pros point out one set of data because it's favorable, and disregard other data points because not as strong. don't hate the player, hate the game shady.

to add to that statement, i can assure you that Tom V. is a straight shooter. I have seen him recommend less expensive options hundreds of times, and he has even given proper acclaims to other subs in a similar category. So to say that Tom is completely bias against his own brand and product is complete garbage.

i have been buying and listening to various subs for years, and i can tell you that if you are basing 100% of your buying decision on a graph from a website versus putting it in YOUR room and listening to what that sub can do, then you deserve to be mislead. a wise consumer will find forums such as these and do HOURS and HOURS of research to decide what may be best for them. sure, some noob may look at a graph from a solid company and purchase a sub that is 1000000 times better than his $100 HTIB noise maker...and guess what? he was "mislead" into buying a FANTASTIC sub. graphs are one thing, but if you graphed response in my room, shady's room, tom's room, bear's room, JT's room, ect....you will undoubtedly get a different graph for each one. simple fact is that PSA makes a SOLID sub for the money. end of story. SVS, PSA, Rythmik, Seaton, and on and on....all fantastic subs, but everyone has their coke or pepsi. like bear said, subs of a same caliber placed behind a curtain would be difficult to tell one from another. so enough of this ******** 5 year old bickering, and lets help OP make a sound decision.
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post #60 of 88 Old 07-03-2014, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
I am still here - a few posts up, I narrowed it to PC13U or FV15HP. Leaning to Rythmik based on performance and value proposition - but just a bit put off by the short amp warranty. Wish they just matched PSA and SVS in terms of warranty.
Glad to see that you are still around. I figured the anti-PSA guy, followed by the PSA defenders, drove you away. This happens anytime PSA is mentioned, and I'm sure several people have lost an opportunity to buy a great subwoofer at a great price because one person brought up some very questionable and controversial doubts. But that's his whole game plan, and has been for a long time. Sadly it works far more often than I ever thought possible. However, your final two choices should make you very happy. I know you feel a bit uneasy because of Rythmik's 2-year warranty on the electronics. The fact is, that is a pretty standard warranty throughout the industry (I.D. and commercial). It's just PSA and SVS that gives you 5 years unconditional, which is also transferrable, and that is the best in the industry … by far. JL Audio used to have a 5-year warranty with 9 limits, but changed it to a 3-year warranty just recently.

Again, let us know what you decide and how you like it.
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