Sub advice needed: Seaton, SVS, PSA, Rythmik for 3800 cu ft dedicated theater space - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 88 Old 07-04-2014, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Search through the Rythmik thread for amp issues. Good luck finding anything. I can't think of anything else to give you peace of mind other than the fact that Brian (the owner of Rythmik) is a stand up guy. I've seen him go out of his way more than a few times for his customers. Have you seen the components he uses in his amps? They are top notch. Search around.
Skrill,

In addition to this Brian has stated several times that if an amp is going to fail it's going to do it at the early stages of it's life.

Receiver - Denon 4311
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #62 of 88 Old 07-04-2014, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
I've been active in this forum for 11+ years. In many discussions over the years, many things newer members take completely for granted were not known and many more were mysteries of physics that were thoroughly debated until a consensus could be arrived at through formulae and data.

Many if not most of those discussion were what many newer members here today would obviously find unacceptably heated. We just called them 'spirited debates'.

Brian Ding, to my knowledge, is the only principal of a product mentioned in this thread who is a degreed engineer in the field. Dr. Hsu is obviously degreed as well, but I'm not certain of what his degree is in. Brian contributed truckloads to those early discussions and never resorted to the sort of abrasiveness, bullying and general whining some of us have come to see from Tom as his signature posting style. Brian always added to the discussion without ever using the debate to sell his products or lording his education over anyone, and all of this despite the fact that English is not his first language.

Thanks, Brian. I owe you a lot where this subject is concerned.

IMO, FWIW, YMMV, if the decision to buy a sub comes down to anyone vs Rythmik, I'd opt to go with Rythmik, no hesitation. Brian is a solid engineer who has built very good products from an engineering standpoint and with an appreciation of the arts, which is a rare combination. He as stand up a guy as I've met in my electronics travels, so I personally would not sweat reliability of his products in my decision.

I wanted to add my 2 cents regarding the sine wave sweep, shaped tone burst testing results data and its interpretation. I've been building and measuring subwoofers for close to 10 years and I have never used sine sweeps or band-limited bursts to assess performance. I use the most demanding soundtracks. It has always struck me odd that measurements folk have a mind that soundtracks are somehow not good input to test performance.

The hang-up over a 5dB higher sweep capability, despite massive compression, unacceptable non-linear distortion and grossly distorted frequency response has reached the point of just being silly nonsense. My subs is 1.1 of your sub because the sine sweep says so. Wow.

If you just have a glance at the performance at 20 Hz (a kinda important frequency for the subs mentioned in this thread), it's plain to see that the sweep increase from 115dB to 120dB shows zero increase in output, yet harmonic distortion quintuples... all so that an octave of bandwidth can play a few dB louder before the typical 80 Hz crossover LPF shuts down the top end at a rate of 24dB per octave.

So, the sine tests show us that limiters allow one to bump the sub a few dB while introducing triple-digit harmonic distortion and distortion of the native frequency response by 7dB with input of a sine wave sweep to 10 Hz and debaters here are seeing only the few dB out extra output and touting it as a good thing. So, what happens when you play WOTW, HTTYD and hundreds of other soundtracks with content to 3-10 Hz, some of which effects are centered <10 Hz? Who knows, as it's never mentioned, nor has anyone besides Keith Yates ever used actual program to test performance.

(BTW, Yates' tests in a series of articles tilted "Way Down Deep" are archived and a simple search will find them. I recommend reading through it. It's easily the best subwoofer testing ever by a really smart guy.)

The subs mentioned in this thread are not 120dB subs. Maximum output at the expense of bandwidth is all too common. You meet the maximum output metric by using multiples, not by choking the low end and pushing your sub beyond its capability. This is not a debatable point.

Bottom line, the Rythmik sub is first rate and Brian will stand behind it. Buying one with plans to add a second is a good plan. I don't see a down side. Of course, that's just my 2 cents, but I chose to add it to this thread because of my opinions on the integrity of Brian Ding, who doesn't get the credit he deserves on these boards.
Very well written and yes you are correct in that Brian does not get the credit he deserves. I've had the pleasure of speaking with him over the phone and in person multiple times and it's always a pleasant experience. My hats off to you bossobass for taking the time to write such a solid post.

Receiver - Denon 4311
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's

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post #63 of 88 Old 07-04-2014, 09:38 AM
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Nice comments Bossobass on these are not a 120 db subs. Rythmik subs are one of the best ID subs that one can buy.

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post #64 of 88 Old 07-04-2014, 11:16 AM
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That's one of the few times that I can recall when bossobass has shown up and provided refreshing and informative information in a thread where PSA was attacked, then defended. Oh, I knew bossobass would show up, but I didn't expect such a quality post. It's a post that may help the O.P. in his final decision between Rythmik and SVS (note to bossobass: PSA is no longer in the running). Hey, I'm impressed … all the way up to the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
Brian contributed truckloads to those early discussions and never resorted to the sort of abrasiveness, bullying and general whining some of us have come to see from Tom as his signature posting style.
Yes, I've seen this "signature style" used with a couple of abrasive, bullying and whining posters whose mission in life seems to be to nothing but ongoing attacks on PSA subs, PSA marketing and Tom personally. I have not seen this "signature style" applied to anyone else. In fact, it's quite the contrary, but you wouldn't be interested in this.
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post #65 of 88 Old 07-04-2014, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
Brian Ding, to my knowledge, is the only principal of a product mentioned in this thread who is a degreed engineer in the field. Dr. Hsu is obviously degreed as well, but I'm not certain of what his degree is in. Brian contributed truckloads to those early discussions and never resorted to the sort of abrasiveness, bullying and general whining some of us have come to see from Tom as his signature posting style. Brian always added to the discussion without ever using the debate to sell his products or lording his education over anyone, and all of this despite the fact that English is not his first language.
+1 this. Some years ago I was openly skeptical about the benefits of Rythmik's servo technology, so Brian just sent me a sub to borrow so I could hear the difference myself. I could not doubt it after not only hearing it myself, but having other people hear it in a blind test. Now that is how you win an argument around here! And his professional conduct stands in stark contrast with PSA's as I noted here.

By the way, Dr Hsu's degree is a PhD in Civil Engineering from MIT.
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post #66 of 88 Old 07-04-2014, 02:01 PM
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I seldom see Bosso posting or partaking in threads outside of the DIY forum or mingling amongst us mere mortals unless of course it's with his pals and/or peers...oh wait its another thread where PSA was mentioned...good grief...dude...just bury the hatchet and move on. We all know you and TV have some history.

Fwiw...I'll second your recommendation on the Rythmik FV15hp...BTW I saw one of those sitting on the floor the other day during my visit...looks solid and well built didn't care to listen to it...the the box itself is massive...too large for my liking.

Bill
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post #67 of 88 Old 07-04-2014, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
Hey, I'm impressed … all the way up to the following:



Yes, I've seen this "signature style" used with a couple of abrasive, bullying and whining posters whose mission in life seems to be to nothing but ongoing attacks on PSA subs, PSA marketing and Tom personally. I have not seen this "signature style" applied to anyone else. In fact, it's quite the contrary, but you wouldn't be interested in this.
+1
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post #68 of 88 Old 07-06-2014, 07:29 AM
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Viewing/Listening Habits: I am 40% TV, gaming and sports (think well shot event TV presentations … Game of Thrones, Penny Dreadful, Boardwalk Empire, Hannibal, etc.); 40% Blu Ray and HD DVD movies and concerts; and 20% music (mostly classic rock on high quality downloads, SACD and CD).

I put a premium on tight, quality bass, versus absolute SPL or "chest slap". Although the later is not a bad thing.

Candidates:
  1. Seaton Submersive HP+ -- amazing word of mouth, and I really like the idea of being able to add a slave unit later at a relatively low cost (provides a lot of value). This is a “I buy this and never think subwoofers a again” type of purchase – which has its own sort of value. But given my relatively quiet listening habits (compared to other AVS'ers) is this overkill?
  2. SVS PB13-Ultra – I think one of these, plus the eD would be all the base I would ever need. Hate the idea of how heavy and unwieldy it is. But it may be the best solution.
  3. SVS PC13-Ultra – solves the heavy and unwieldy problem above. But replaces it with a “that kinda looks strange” problem
  4. SVS SB13-Ultra – Buy one now, and a future twin later. I LOVE the form factor and it gets great reviews, but will the in room extension be enough.
  5. Power Sound Audio – XS30se. I love the value proposition here, and the how similar the design is to the Seaton. But will it be enough in terms of extension? I suppose I could always just do two (for less than one Seaton). I also really like that the owner answers the phone and works directly with you.
  6. Rythmik – great reviews and word of mouth – but I have not really explored.
  7. Funk – I have taken them off the list as I think I would just go Seaton if I decide to spend this level of money
Back on topic. Aside to the OP Skrill, i think we have quite similar setup. My room is 4000+ cubic foot, and using B&W for LCR speakers too.

On the subs listed,
PSA - i have friend using the XS30 for their HT, and they seem to be wowed by it with its pricepoint vs performance
SVS - I have heard the SVS in the local showrooms, i love the SB13 for its musicality. But I think SVS is higher pricepoint than Rythmik
Rythmik - I am currently using the Rythmik F15HP and so far I am very happy with it. My usage is 50% movies, 40% concerts, 10% music.
Funk - no exp
Seaton - I have a friend using Seaton in a 4000+ cubic foot room, and the reviews are well.... EXCELLENT

Most of the subs mentioned are quality at their price points and have their own strengths, and seriously, i think u won't go wrong with the choices. And your onkyo AVR seems to match your usage quite well, the only glaring thing is XT32.

If i were to expound on your 'tight quality bass' requirement, my vote will go for Seaton if budget is not a constraint (u really have to determine this. THIS IS KEY IF YOUR POCKET IS DEEP, JUST GET THE SEATON & DONT LOOK BACK), but note that u are comparing products at quite different price points, it's really not fair as it is not apple to apple.

If budget is a concern, to optimize your dollar, my vote go for the Rythmik F15HP or FV15HP. And use the remaining monies to upgrade your AVR to one with XT32. Or use the monies for a newer B&W series centre speaker.

Do u have any chance in your state/areas to audition the subs yourself? it would really help lots.
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post #69 of 88 Old 07-06-2014, 07:57 AM
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Hi all, Ive been a lurker here for several years. Spirited debates are a good thing until they turn to attacks. When I was shopping for ht equipment I referred to this forum and several others for comparisons and reviews. I just wanted to bring up that while I think theres great info on this site I take most of it with a grain of salt and don't use it as a final decision maker. I can tell you that the derailment of this thread and fighting is enough to turn off any newbie to ht It did me so there must be others.

If giving help to newcomers is one of the reasons you guys post here maybe a closed room for "spirited debates" would be better suited for the fighting.

my .02

Jeff
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post #70 of 88 Old 07-06-2014, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Hi all, Ive been a lurker here for several years. Spirited debates are a good thing until they turn to attacks. When I was shopping for ht equipment I referred to this forum and several others for comparisons and reviews. I just wanted to bring up that while I think theres great info on this site I take most of it with a grain of salt and don't use it as a final decision maker. I can tell you that the derailment of this thread and fighting is enough to turn off any newbie to ht It did me so there must be others.

If giving help to newcomers is one of the reasons you guys post here maybe a closed room for "spirited debates" would be better suited for the fighting.

my .02

Jeff
It would seem this kind of behavior is welcomed here....most other forums would not tolerate nor allow things to escalate in this manner. Like you said..."spirited debates" should be taken to PM. Some people seem to like to rehash quotes and or conversation form years ago....how childish....if you ask me.
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post #71 of 88 Old 07-06-2014, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sevenz View Post
Back on topic. Aside to the OP Skrill, i think we have quite similar setup. My room is 4000+ cubic foot, and using B&W for LCR speakers too. My usage is 50% movies, 40% concerts, 10% music. And i like quality bass.

On the subs listed,
PSA - i have friend using the XS30 for their HT, and they seem to be wowed by it with its pricepoint vs performance
SVS - I have heard the SVS in the local showrooms, i love the SB13 for its musicality. But I think SVS is higher pricepoint than Rythmik
Rythmik - I am currently using the Rythmik F15HP and so far I am very happy with how it can fill my room with quality bass. And it's quite musical i must say.
Funk - no exp
Seaton - I have a friend using Seaton in a 4000+ cubic foot room, and the reviews are well.... EXCELLENT

Well, most of the subs mentioned are quality at their price points and have their own strengths, and seriously, i think u won't really go wrong with the choices. And your onkyo AVR seems to match your usage quite well, the only glaring thing is XT32.

If i were to expound on your 'tight quality bass' requirement, my vote will go for Seaton if budget is not a constraint (u really have to determine this. THIS IS KEY IF YOUR POCKET IS DEEP, JUST GET THE SEATON & DONT LOOK BACK), but note that u are comparing products at quite different price points, it's really not fair as it is not apple to apple.

If budget is a concern, to optimize your dollar, my vote go for the Rythmik F15HP or FV15HP. And use the remaining monies to upgrade your AVR to one with XT32 (PS: I saw some audible improvement after i switched to XT32 ). Or use the monies for a newer B&W series centre speaker.

Do u have any chance in your state/areas to audition the subs yourself? it would really help lots.
Good post, sevenz, and a great way to get this thread back on track. I think the O.P. has narrowed it down to the Rythmik and SVS, which isn't easy to do since there are many great subs to choose from. Whichever he chooses, I see no reason he won't be thrilled with his decision.
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post #72 of 88 Old 07-06-2014, 03:51 PM
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If the choice is between Rythmik or SVS then try the SVS first, if its not enough then send it back free of charge and pull the trigger on the Rythmik.
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post #73 of 88 Old 07-10-2014, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys -- thanks for all the tips. I talked with folks at SVS, Enrique @ Rythmik, Tom @ PSA, and then Mark Seaton. All great folks.

And the winner is ... Seaton. I got a nice deal on a b-stock SubM HP+ and slave.

And then I just said ... "F__k it, why not?"


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post #74 of 88 Old 07-10-2014, 05:39 PM
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^^ All I can say is WOW !!!!
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post #75 of 88 Old 07-10-2014, 05:50 PM
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Nice grab. Had to have costed substantially more than a pair of SVS's or Rythmik's but if you have the money to toss around why not?
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post #76 of 88 Old 07-10-2014, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Nice grab. Had to have costed substantially more than a pair of SVS's or Rythmik's but if you have the money to toss around why not?
Less than a pair of PB13Us ... which is why I ultimately went for it.

Mark also made me feel like that the sub placement in the rear corners was going to work really well. He basically said that the SubM master/slave setup was designed for front or rear corner placement, and works best in those locations. So it seemed like the right equipment for the right job.

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post #77 of 88 Old 07-10-2014, 06:01 PM
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You obviously got hung up on the shorter Rythmik warranty no matter how many people chimed in vouching for Rythmik as a company. I have less funds and value my dollar more than some folks on here, so I would have never considered PB-13 Ultras over the FV15HP's for pretty much identical performance. With that said the Seatons are a solid grab. Hold onto your seats Dorothy cuz Kansas is going bye bye. Couldn't resist you ended up with great subs.
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post #78 of 88 Old 07-10-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
Hey guys -- thanks for all the tips. I talked with folks at SVS, Enrique @ Rythmik, Tom @ PSA, and then Mark Seaton. All great folks.

And the winner is ... Seaton. I got a nice deal on a b-stock SubM HP+ and slave.

And then I just said ... "F__k it, why not?"

Good choice...not that we would ever question this decision...now...nor will the DIY crowd. Its a sub I had considered but logistics & cost played a large part.


Cheers...&... GL

Bill

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Sony BDP-S380, TechnicsCD player, Apple TV
PSA XS30 SE in Cordovan Cherry

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post #79 of 88 Old 07-10-2014, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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You obviously got hung up on the shorter Rythmik warranty no matter how many people chimed in vouching for Rythmik as a company. I have less funds and value my dollar more than some folks on here, so I would have never considered PB-13 Ultras over the FV15HP's for pretty much identical performance. With that said the Seatons are a solid grab. Hold onto your seats Dorothy cuz Kansas is going bye bye. Couldn't resist you ended up with great subs.
Actually -- I was not really hung up on that. Rythmik was definitely number 2. Mark just put together a great package for on subs that he made me feel were perfectly designed for the job and placement at hand. I definitely think the Rythmik would have done the job well.

Anyway -- we will see how it works out. I am certain it will be great regardless.

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post #80 of 88 Old 07-10-2014, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Good choice...not that we would ever question this decision...now...nor will the DIY crowd. Its a sub I had considered but logistics & cost played a large part.


Cheers...&... GL

Bill
I actually considered DIY -- and may in the future, when my son is older and he can help, still explore a MartySub with some monster 18s as a father-son project. But what also sold me was the elegance of the Seaton solution. The build quality, small footprint, master/slave setup, and their ability to retain resale value (poking around on the web looking at FS posts) convinced me that I could not really go wrong.
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post #81 of 88 Old 07-10-2014, 06:30 PM
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Skrill we better see some sub porn when you get those beauty's.
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post #82 of 88 Old 07-10-2014, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Skrill we better see some sub porn when you get those beauty's.
You got it.

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post #83 of 88 Old 07-10-2014, 07:18 PM
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Congrats on the Seaton combo!!
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post #84 of 88 Old 07-11-2014, 07:23 AM
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great, congrats on the buy. The Seaton is an awesome sub. Pls post pics ya?
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post #85 of 88 Old 07-18-2014, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Look what the subwoofer faerie dropped off ...

Working right now -- so I can't unbox.
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post #86 of 88 Old 07-19-2014, 04:47 AM
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Oh the torture... You better not still sleeping this Saturday
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post #87 of 88 Old 07-19-2014, 05:47 AM
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Nice! Congrats. Like everyone else is saying - pics!

Check out my WAF approved living room theater


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post #88 of 88 Old 07-19-2014, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnatalli View Post
Oh the torture... You better not still sleeping this Saturday
Well - I was up late but I got them wrestled into place and calibrated with Audyssey XT32, and polished with my SMS-1. The look amazing, the craftsmanship is top-nothch, the unboxing process is Apple-esque in terms of the attention to detail. Have not played a ton of material - but they sounds great in the room. And SMS-1 is showing a basically flat FR from 15hz (the limit the SMS's capabilities) to the x-over at 80hz.

Funny tidbit - as part of the XT32 process it has you set the sub trim at the sub. I put the trim at -10db (Mark's recommended starting point) on the HP+ amp. The test tone was over 103db and Audyssey has me drop the trim down eventually to -32db on the amp just to get the tone to 77db-ish so Audyssey could run. There is mad power in that amp.

Sorry for the crummy phone pics. My dark theater is not conducive to pics.
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Last edited by Skrill; 07-19-2014 at 06:10 AM.
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers
Gear in this thread - VPL-HW55ES, by PriceGrabber.com

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