Help please with Subwoofer SVS, HSU or PSA.. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Help please with Subwoofer SVS, HSU or PSA..

Hi

I have read through so many threads now that I am now very close to losing my mind (have lost my sleep already). Question I have is simple. First my setup

Room Size 19X12x9(H)
Fronts PSB Image T6
Center C5 and S5 Surrounds
Planning to buy Denon X4000

Struggling to figure out the woofer. My budget for now is $500-$600. I could stretch to $700-800 if really need to. My main interest in the order of preference is movies, TV, music and sometime gaming.

1) Considering the setup and space, would It be better to have two subs?

1a) If two, then do they have to be same?
1b) if two then I am hoping two ~$500 subs should be sufficient

2) if one is sufficient then would

2a) HSU VTF2 MK4 or SVS PB1000 or Rhythmic LV12R be enough else I could stretch my budget to accommodate
2b) VTF3 or PSA XS15SE or SB2000

which sub out of the 2a or 2b would be more suited considering the setup and space. I would most likely be moving out of the country soon so option for 110v/240v switch would be nice rather than using step down transformer which I believe exist in HSU and PSA.

Appreciate the inputs in advance. I feel exhausted spending hours and hours reading. Also I am not technically qualified so comments around 20hz or frequency charts would completely go over my head. I do like the room shaking on those action scenes. Bass is extremely important for me. Unfortunately I can only buy one right now with max budget of $800 max.



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post #2 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 04:48 PM
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Almost all the subs you chose would meet your needs pretty well except for the SB2000. I would scratch that off the list and replace it with the PB2000. From there it is your choice based on how much you want to spend. Basically, your output is going to increase roughly in this order imo:

PB1000
LV12R
VTF2.4
VTF3.4
PB2000
XS15se(although the vtf3 and pb2000 will have an advantage in the movie rumbling 16-25 region imo)

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Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

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post #3 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 05:16 PM
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Actually, this is the time when you should really be enjoying yourself! It's an exciting time, so don't fret and have fun. The subwoofers you have mentioned are all good. Not a bad one out of the bunch. And we will all have our own personal preferences based upon what we've auditioned and purchased. I don't think there is a person here who has tried out every sub you've mentioned.

Two subs are usually used if one cannot solve room mode problems at the seating position. In order to get good frequency response over a larger area to encompass multiple seating positions, many will opt for multiple subs. Of course, two subs are more difficult to set up than one, especially if you buy from different companies. The side benefit of two subs is that it will add 3-6 dB additional output, so each sub will be working with less stress.

I have two subwoofers, but each sub is in different rooms doing different tasks. I found out quickly that I didn't need two subs in either room (and each room is much larger than yours). But all rooms are different, as well as the seating requirements. I'd advise to try one sub at the upper end of your budget to see if that will make you happy … better yet, thrilled. I'm pretty sure that a couple of subs (especially if you swap the SVS SB to a PB) on your list would be more than sufficient in your room volume. But if, for whatever reason, you can't place the sub where it will give you the response you need at the seating positions, then send it back and try two lesser quality subs. Both PSA (for a limited time and only on the XS15se and XV15se) and SVS provide free shipping back to their facility (both provide free shipping to your home).

My preferences? Since I haven't auditioned any of them, I cannot say. I can tell you that I have an SVS sub in one room and a PSA sub in another … and I'm thrilled with both.
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post #4 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 05:39 PM
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Two subs are usually better, but in my opinion, only once they can meet a baseline performance. That baseline doesn't occur within a $800/2 budget. I think it might be met by the Reaction BPS 212 though, and that comes shipped at $900 pair. I'm not sure how its amp handles higher voltage power though. If you can not accommodate that, I would go with either the VTF3 or PB2000, especially if you don't know what size room you will end up in. The problem with the VTF3 is it is a behemoth, and might be a handful to ship around the world. The PB2000 isn't a lot smaller, but it doesn't look like it has adjustment for 240v power.
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post #5 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 06:08 PM
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At $600, I would go with the Rythmik LV12R. Up to $800, the HSU VTF-3 MK4 and SVS PB-2000.
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post #6 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 06:39 PM
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I'm actually of the opinion, that 2, or better yet 3 lower priced subwoofers will offer better in room response than 1 single subwoofer, no matter what it is. Once I bought my Minidsp, and used REW, my $100 used Velodyne and two $100 Polk Audio PSW10's would not be replaced by any one single subwoofer, and no Minidsp no matter the cost.

If one can afford at least 2 or more higher end subs, great, but if the budget doesn't allow that, I'd spend the available money on the Minidsp and cheaper subs.

Last edited by 89grand; 07-14-2014 at 06:42 PM.
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post #7 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 06:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
I'm actually of the opinion, that 2, or better yet 3 lower priced subwoofers will offer better in room response than 1 single subwoofer, no matter what it is. Once I bought my Minidsp, and used REW, my $100 used Velodyne and two $100 Polk Audio PSW10's would not be replaced by any one single subwoofer, and no Minidsp no matter the cost.

If one can afford at least 2 or more higher end subs, great, but if the budget doesn't allow that, I'd spend the available money on the Minidsp and cheaper subs.
I don't think it is a good idea to buy multiple ~$100 subs. At that price, you're not even getting real bass. I've owned the PSW10 before, and any one of the subs mentioned in this thread will sound a heck of a lot better *in a null* than properly set up PSW10's. The PSW10, or any $100 sub, just does not produce usable bass, let alone deep bass.
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post #8 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Help please with Subwoofer SVS, HSU or PSA..

I guess I will go with one sub for now. Will try and audition SVS and XS15se though not comfortable with the idea of ordering and returning (it's just silly me). Appreciate the advice. I guess I need to choose between PB2000, XS15 and HSU VTF3

Last edited by Sk76; 07-14-2014 at 07:31 PM. Reason: second thoughts
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post #9 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowerFE View Post
I don't think it is a good idea to buy multiple ~$100 subs. At that price, you're not even getting real bass. I've owned the PSW10 before, and any one of the subs mentioned in this thread will sound a heck of a lot better *in a null* than properly set up PSW10's. The PSW10, or any $100 sub, just does not produce usable bass, let alone deep bass.
I'm running one Velodyne and 2 Polk PSW10's, and I respectfully beg to differ. After using REW and a Minidsp, the bass is very satisfying. I think many people over estimate the need for crazy low bass. Most music that "seems" to have low bass is probably only down to the 40hz range at the most. I know some music has bass below that, but most doesn't. And when you take into account the bad acoustics of many rooms (mine was real bad) the response gets so manipulated by the room, that the subs actual measurements go out the window. For instance my room had a gigantic 32db peak at 33hz, and all three subs, in different locations exhibited it. In my case I had WAY too much low bass.

I strongly disagree that smooth, accurate bass, even if it doesn't go down to 20hz, sounds worse than uneven response that may go a bit lower in frequency, even from the best of subwoofers. It's like how I'd prefer a cheaper, but reasonably decent sounding speaker carefully setup, than a higher end speaker slammed against the back wall against the corner of the room. Even before the Minidsp, I'd take 3 average subs over one better one.
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post #10 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sk76 View Post
I guess I will go with one sub for now. Will try and audition SVS and XS15se though not comfortable with the idea of ordering and returning (it's just silly me). Appreciate the advice. I guess I need to choose between PB2000, XS15 and HSU VTF3
You can take any route you choose, but I've played many times with single subs and never could get a satisfying result. I've had much more success using at least two, and even more with three. What took it to a whole level was 3, even average subs, and the Minidsp to finally get great results.
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post #11 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
You can take any route you choose, but I've played many times with single subs and never could get a satisfying result. I've had much more success using at least two, and even more with three. What took it to a whole level was 3, even average subs, and the Minidsp to finally get great results.
What size rooms are/were you putting 3 subs in and we're they dedicated rooms?
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post #12 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 08:18 PM
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What size rooms are/were you putting 3 subs in and we're they dedicated rooms?
My living room is my main setup, and it's only 13x19 feet. I have two mid-century end table that allow the Polks to fit under them, so those two take up no usable real estate. The Velodyne is in the right front corner of the room, and I put a small Ikea table over it, and have some stuff sitting on that table.

If you get a bit creative, and they aren't real big you can somewhat hide them. When you have three, their locations are much less critical than a single sub.
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post #13 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 08:23 PM
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I think many people over estimate the need for crazy low bass. Most music that "seems" to have low bass is probably only down to the 40hz range at the most. I know some music has bass below that, but most doesn't. .
If you want to listen to only music, you have somewhat of a point to stand on. The op wants this sub primarily for movies. If you are happy with a sub that only plays to 40 Hz on movies, its because you have not experienced bass from a real sub that digs down to below 20 Hz. 50 PSW10's would not be as good as one $600 or $800 sub for movies...its a fact.

A mid bass module like the PSW10 would probably sound fine with most music at low volume.

I agree with the sentiment of some of the others....one $500 or up sub is better than two cheap subs that cannot play low enough.
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LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

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post #14 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 08:45 PM
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If you want to listen to only music, you have somewhat of a point to stand on. The op wants this sub primarily for movies. If you are happy with a sub that only plays to 40 Hz on movies, its because you have not experienced bass from a real sub that digs down to below 20 Hz. 50 PSW10's would not be as good as one $600 or $800 sub for movies...its a fact.

A mid bass module like the PSW10 would probably sound fine with most music at low volume.

I agree with the sentiment of some of the others....one $500 or up sub is better than two cheap subs that cannot play low enough.
Mine obviously played below 40hz, because I had a huge 33hz spike from both Polks and the Velodyne. Granted, it was the room doing it, but that's the whole point. The room plays havoc on any subwoofers response, so it's best to include measurement capability and a tool to do the eq.

If one has a bigger budget, yeah, get better subs, and still get the Minidsp and a way to make measurements, and use REW. I'd still without a doubt take 3 Polks, with room correction over any one sub without it.
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post #15 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
Mine obviously played below 40hz, because I had a huge 33hz spike from both Polks and the Velodyne. Granted, it was the room doing it, but that's the whole point. The room plays havoc on any subwoofers response, so it's best to include measurement capability and a tool to do the eq.

If one has a bigger budget, yeah, get better subs, and still get the Minidsp and a way to make measurements, and use REW. I'd still without a doubt take 3 Polks, with room correction over any one sub without it.
Care to post some graphs?
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post #16 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 10:18 PM
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Mine obviously played below 40hz, because I had a huge 33hz spike from both Polks and the Velodyne. Granted, it was the room doing it, but that's the whole point. The room plays havoc on any subwoofers response, so it's best to include measurement capability and a tool to do the eq.

If one has a bigger budget, yeah, get better subs, and still get the Minidsp and a way to make measurements, and use REW. I'd still without a doubt take 3 Polks, with room correction over any one sub without it.

I agree 100% that multiple subs and sub eq make a huge difference on quality bass.....that's why I have two subs and the miniDSP. But if you prefer 3 mid bass modules over a true subwoofer, it's likely because you just have not experienced what a true subwoofer is capable of on movies. Sort of like a kid with a honda civic si with a loud muffler. Take a spin in a corvette and see what's up. By the same token.....I would put one PB2000 up against 2, 3, 10 PSW 10's for movies. Zero output at 20 Hz times ten still = 0.

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post #17 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 10:30 PM
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I don't agree. Huge output 30 Hz and above will almost always be preferred over extension to 20 Hz with middling 30+ output. Extension doesn't matter if there is no dynamic range to back it up.
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post #18 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 11:19 PM
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I don't agree. Huge output 30 Hz and above will almost always be preferred over extension to 20 Hz with middling 30+ output. Extension doesn't matter if there is no dynamic range to back it up.
So two or even three 50W 10" PSW10 polks are better than a VTF3.4 or PB2000 or a XV15se........if you think so, but I would not run that setup over a true sub.



Yep I don't think I will be trading for some PSW10's anytime soon..even if I had one XV15, or one PB2000, or one LV12R.

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post #19 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 11:21 PM
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Care to post some graphs?
I would. Unfortunately I didn't save my graphs, and closed REW and now they are gone.

No one has to take my word for it, but yes the graphs would have better proven my point, and I lost them. My system to me, is light years ahead of where it was however.
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post #20 of 52 Old 07-14-2014, 11:31 PM
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What I should have said is I don't agree with the notion that sub 30 Hz extension is more important than serious output above that point. I would not trade a PB2000 for three PSW10s because the Polks likely would not get any louder or have any qualitative advantage over the PB2000, aside from being able to fill room nulls. However, give me three good subs that are tuned to 30 Hz or so, and I would easily take that over a single PB2000. It will make for a more impressive listening experience, especially at loud levels.
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post #21 of 52 Old 07-15-2014, 12:41 AM
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I don't want to beat this to death, but I don't consider 30-40hz midbass. Midbass to me is 70-120hz or there about.
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post #22 of 52 Old 07-15-2014, 12:56 AM
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I don't want to beat this to death, but I don't consider 30-40hz midbass. Midbass to me is 70-120hz or there about.
Its pretty arbitrary. I agree though, I don't consider 30 to 40 hz mid bass, it sounds too deep. That punch on the chest feeling doesn't even really start until way up in the 60s.
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post #23 of 52 Old 07-15-2014, 03:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I am buying my first sub and I would prefer to buy a good quality sub. If need be I would add another sub later and considering my room size which is around 2000cft I am guessing two PB2000 may be an overkill. So I would start with one PB2000 or XS15se and maybe add one later like a PB1000. Would that pose a problem if they are different considering the AVR would have Sub EQ


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post #24 of 52 Old 07-15-2014, 04:22 AM
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You generally do not want to mix subs unless you have something specific in mind like a MBM. If you intend to get a sub later, make it a matching one, unless you have a really weird acoustic response in your room.
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post #25 of 52 Old 07-15-2014, 05:10 AM
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Stretch to $949, get dual PB-1000 and call it a day
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post #26 of 52 Old 07-15-2014, 05:25 AM - Thread Starter
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On come on ... Back to square one ... One good sub for now (max $800) or get two VTF2 or PB1000 for my room size. You guys have far more knowledge than I do. What I want to avoid is spend $800 now and $800 later. My room size isn't that big.



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post #27 of 52 Old 07-15-2014, 06:18 AM
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Since you have stated that you are willing to spend more than $500 go ahead and scratch the PB-1000 off your list. It gets returned quite often for larger subs that will trump it in output for <$100. Both the HSU VTF2 MK4 and Rythmik LV12R would wipe the floor with it.
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post #28 of 52 Old 07-15-2014, 06:37 AM
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Two VTF2 will be closer to 1200 shipped, but if you can make that stretch, that would be a great system. It will give you loads of 20 Hz bass in a small room.
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post #29 of 52 Old 07-15-2014, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sk76 View Post
I guess I will go with one sub for now. Will try and audition SVS and XS15se though not comfortable with the idea of ordering and returning (it's just silly me). Appreciate the advice. I guess I need to choose between PB2000, XS15 and HSU VTF3

If you do audition a Power Sound Audio product don't feel "weird" at all if you decide to return it and take advantage of our free shipping both ways promotion. It takes all of about 30 seconds for me to generate a return shipping sticker for you(I email it to you). So it isn't any trouble for us at all.

If your room does not have large openings to other areas of the home the XS15se you are considering is a great fit. You'll get strong output down to the 5hz to 7hz range with clean output capabilities of 109-118dB(probably a little conservative).

Also, we do have a B-stock XS15se here(The unit that was tested by Josh Ricci actually).. If you (or anyone else) has interest please email me/chat me. Thanks.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #30 of 52 Old 07-15-2014, 03:58 PM
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Both the HSU VTF2 MK4 and Rythmik LV12R would wipe the floor with it.
Not exactly.

A little more output, sure. Neither dig deeper though.

As always, buy as much as you can to start with and then add more later once you get used to what you have and inevitably want more.

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