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post #1 of 59 Old 07-25-2014, 12:25 AM - Thread Starter
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adding second subwoofer

I'm thinking of adding a bic f-12 subwoofer to my existing setup.Ialready have a bic v-1220 in my system and I was wondering if the two subs would work well together in a two sub setup.Any help is appreciated.
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post #2 of 59 Old 07-25-2014, 12:44 AM
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I don't see a problem using an F-12 with a V1220, but is there any reason why you are choosing the F-12 over another V1220? Both have 12-inch drivers, but the V1220 shows a frequency response of 23 Hz - 180 Hz (no plus or minus range given) with a 200 watt RMS BASH amplifier (430 watt peak) and a 7/2 warranty. The F12 has a frequency response of 25 Hz - 200 Hz (no plus or minus range given) with a 150 watt RMS BASH amplifier (475 watt peak) and a 5/2 warranty. Both have a sensitivity rating of 90 dB and the weight is the same, but the F-12 is magnetically shielded where the V1220 is not. And the V1220 often costs less on Amazon (right now $156 vs $184 for the F-12).
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post #3 of 59 Old 07-25-2014, 02:15 AM - Thread Starter
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So from what I can gather adding anoter sub will add more bass to my room.
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post #4 of 59 Old 07-25-2014, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jasammeg View Post
So from what I can gather adding anoter sub will add more bass to my room.

It does, but it won't double the output. The primary benefit is you'll reduce and/or eliminate nulls.
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post #5 of 59 Old 07-25-2014, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jasammeg View Post
So from what I can gather adding anoter sub will add more bass to my room.
It depends upon what you mean by "more bass". If you mean deeper bass, the answer is no. If you mean more output (being able to play the low notes louder), then the answer is yes. A second sub will give you 3 - 6 dB greater output depending upon where they are located. As Kidhorn indicated, a second sub will help smooth out room modes at the listening position.
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post #6 of 59 Old 07-25-2014, 01:18 PM
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I run 3 subs, two are the same and the other is different. I doesn't matter at those frequencies as you wouldn't be able to distinguish one sub from another.

And yes, it does help smooth the overall response. Each of my subs measured individually exhibit a 60hz suck out due to my room acoustics, but when all three are measured together it's much less severe.
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post #7 of 59 Old 07-25-2014, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
I run 3 subs, two are the same and the other is different. I doesn't matter at those frequencies as you wouldn't be able to distinguish one sub from another.

And yes, it does help smooth the overall response. Each of my subs measured individually exhibit a 60hz suck out due to my room acoustics, but when all three are measured together it's much less severe.
This is blatantly untrue.

Identical, multiple subs is the ideal. With mis-matched subs you will usually have one that runs out of headroom before the other(s)....not a good thing.
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post #8 of 59 Old 07-25-2014, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
This is blatantly untrue.

Identical, multiple subs is the ideal. With mis-matched subs you will usually have one that runs out of headroom before the other(s)....not a good thing.
I seriously doubt anyone could pick out one sub over another with just the sub playing unless you were playing test tones, and one had deeper response. In fact, no sub sounds good just playing by itself. I have two systems with multiple subwoofers, my computer room with two, and my main system with 3. I have a total of 5 subs, 3 of one kind, one each of two others, and I used the ones that best fit where I needed them to go in my main system and I've never experienced what you describe. In fact, I can't even tell I have subwoofers in there unless I turn them off, so to me, playing with the mains, I can't detect any difference whatsoever between the different ones.

I'm more concerned with music, but I've been known to play both music and movies quite loud, and I've never ran out of headroom, or wished I had all of the same subs. Maybe my system is just tuned good, I don't know.
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post #9 of 59 Old 07-26-2014, 11:56 AM
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Adding a second sub was one of the best things I ever done to my system. They are not the same brand and sound great.

(LCD - Sony KDL - XBR4) (Receiver - Sony STR-DA4ES)(Blu Ray - Oppo BDP-83) (PS3)( Dish Hopper DVR With Sling) Speakers (L & R - Paradigm Studio 20) (Center -Paradigm CC-470) (Surrounds & Back Surrounds - Paradigm SA-15R in walls) (Subwoofer 1 - Sunfire HRS-12) (Subwoofer 2 - Paradigm PW-2100)
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post #10 of 59 Old 07-26-2014, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
This is blatantly untrue.

Identical, multiple subs is the ideal. With mismatched subs you will usually have one that runs out of headroom before the other(s)....not a good thing.
If ample power is available for all the subs, headroom is not an issue. I have had as much trouble integrating identical sub as I had with mixed subs. A great system can be put together with identical or non-identical subs.

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post #11 of 59 Old 07-28-2014, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
If ample power is available for all the subs, headroom is not an issue. I have had as much trouble integrating identical sub as I had with mixed subs. A great system can be put together with identical or non-identical subs.
Agree, but this; "A great system can be put together with identical or non-identical subs" needs to be qualified with this "If ample power is available for all the subs".

If ample power is not available (which is usually the case with mis-matched subs; i.e. after upgrading), then I stand by my statement.
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post #12 of 59 Old 07-28-2014, 02:53 PM
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I'm not really sure why mis-matched subs almost guarantee's lack of power, but anyway, after running REW and eliminating most of the peaks in my rooms response, but adding none, or very little boost anywhere, I probably freed up quite a bit of the subwoofers amplifier power. At 32hz for instance I had a huge peak in the response from all three subs, by eq'ing that way down, the subs aren't working very hard any more down there.
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post #13 of 59 Old 07-28-2014, 02:56 PM
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How would SBU13 and SB12+ fuction together? Or best not to consider it?

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post #14 of 59 Old 07-28-2014, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
I'm not really sure why mis-matched subs almost guarantee's lack of power, but anyway, after running REW and eliminating most of the peaks in my rooms response, but adding none, or very little boost anywhere, I probably freed up quite a bit of the subwoofers amplifier power. At 32hz for instance I had a huge peak in the response from all three subs, by eq'ing that way down, the subs aren't working very hard any more down there.
Because people with mis-matched subs are usually trying to integrate their old subs after upgrading...and most people upgrade substantially. I don't know many folks who upgrade "just a little".
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post #15 of 59 Old 07-28-2014, 08:08 PM
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Yes, putting a 12 in. 350 watt sub with a sub of 2400 watts and 15 or 18 in. is not a good ideal. But, mixing 12 and 15 in. subs is not a problem in most situation. Identical subs, one mid-wall and one corner loaded can be a very bad power match and easily stress the mid-wall sub. A lesser sub can be used nearfield. It is not a good ideal to make blanket statements. I have mixed subs from 8-18 inches and never bottomed out a sub. Subs just need to be somewhat similar in power and perfromance.

In my signature, a vented single driver sub is used with a sealed double driver sub. These subs play well together or alone in pairs. Adequate knowledge and proper setup are key to good HT bass.

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post #16 of 59 Old 07-28-2014, 09:13 PM
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My two very different subs integrate quite well.
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post #17 of 59 Old 07-29-2014, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
Yes, putting a 12 in. 350 watt sub with a sub of 2400 watts and 15 or 18 in. is not a good ideal. But, mixing 12 and 15 in. subs is not a problem in most situation. Identical subs, one mid-wall and one corner loaded can be a very bad power match and easily stress the mid-wall sub. A lesser sub can be used nearfield. It is not a good ideal to make blanket statements. I have mixed subs from 8-18 inches and never bottomed out a sub. Subs just need to be somewhat similar in power and perfromance.

In my signature, a vented single driver sub is used with a sealed double driver sub. These subs play well together or alone in pairs. Adequate knowledge and proper setup are key to good HT bass.
Wrong. If your subs are correctly gain matched, all subs will be using the same amp power at all times (assuming the subs are identical).

How can an 8" sub be "similar in power and performance" to an 18" sub?

I still stand by my "blanket statement".
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post #18 of 59 Old 07-29-2014, 09:21 AM
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And I agree with Alan...it is best to match subwoofers. For ex; for a short period of time I ran a JBL ES250 with dual XV15's. I actually bought it for one of my juke box locations but I decided to try it at my house first to see how well a third smooths the response. Well it did a wonderful job smoothing the response but a horrible job keeing up with my XV15's. It was out of headroom 10-15db before my XV15's. So at lower levels it was fine and the bass sounded good, but when I turned it up it was a handicap plain and simple. Was not too long after I ordered a third XV15. Now I have a fairly smooth response with no EQ and 130db of headroom available when called upon.

Moral of the story, if you are going to mismatch subs make sure they are of similar caliber or you will simply be handicapping the better sub.
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post #19 of 59 Old 07-29-2014, 10:50 AM
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I think it really depends on just how much output someone expects from their subs. I use two cheap Polks PSW10's and a Velodyne, and especially after using REW and a Minidsp, the bass is fantastic for both movies and music. At least for me, it gets plenty loud and I've never felt held back by the subs, or heard any difference between them, or felt them run out of steam.

I also have no use for 130db of headroom, but that's just me. Everyone has different needs so the answer to this question really should be: It depends!
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post #20 of 59 Old 07-29-2014, 02:51 PM
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In on the fence too getting another sub. I have rythmik lv12r. Planning getting the mirage omni 12 sub. One of my friend is selling it with a good price. is my lv12r will over power the mirage omni 12? I look on the specks both has the same 300 watts.
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post #21 of 59 Old 07-29-2014, 03:02 PM
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This is something I've been contemplating as well.

What about one sealed, 350W 10" sub that has a lower limit of about 32 Hz response, and one ported 350W 12" that has a lower limit of about 18Hz? It seems like there could be a way to configure these to work together, and get the best of both worlds... maybe cross the larger one over at about 35Hz? One near field, one corner? Just spitballing here... but if it could work, it could help me justify some things for my own setup
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post #22 of 59 Old 07-29-2014, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
I think it really depends on just how much output someone expects from their subs. I use two cheap Polks PSW10's and a Velodyne, and especially after using REW and a Minidsp, the bass is fantastic for both movies and music. At least for me, it gets plenty loud and I've never felt held back by the subs, or heard any difference between them, or felt them run out of steam.

I a130db of headroom, but that's just me. Everyone has different needs so the answer to this question really should be: It depends!
I do not use all 130db either, but when I watch movies around reference my subs are barely working which means ultra clean bass and longevity of components are increased. The JBL could not handle reference volume and would not last long being driven at those levels.

Aside from output cheaper subs have more thd which will degrade the sound quality of the higher quality sub. It would be like putting 87octane fuel in a ZR1 corvette.
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post #23 of 59 Old 07-29-2014, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post
In on the fence too getting another sub. I have rythmik lv12r. Planning getting the mirage omni 12 sub. One of my friend is selling it with a good price. is my lv12r will over power the mirage omni 12? I look on the specks both has the same 300 watts.
The Omni12 sub is pretty solid by the specs. I think those 2 could work well together.
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post #24 of 59 Old 07-29-2014, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by djjoshuad View Post
This is something I've been contemplating as well.

What about one sealed, 350W 10" sub that has a lower limit of about 32 Hz response, and one ported 350W 12" that has a lower limit of about 18Hz? It seems like there could be a way to configure these to work together, and get the best of both worlds... maybe cross the larger one over at about 35Hz? One near field, one corner? Just spitballing here... but if it could work, it could help me justify some things for my own setup
Sealed + ported subs are notoriously difficult to get to play nice together...and nigh-on impossible without the ability to measure your response. Do you have the ability (REW, Omnimic)??
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post #25 of 59 Old 07-29-2014, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
The Omni12 sub is pretty solid by the specs. I think those 2 could work well together.
+1
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post #26 of 59 Old 07-29-2014, 04:14 PM
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Amazing how a thread has a mind of its own . The O.P. stopped coming back awhile ago and if you look at his question you will see that it was pretty much answered early on.
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post #27 of 59 Old 07-29-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Sealed + ported subs are notoriously difficult to get to play nice together...and nigh-on impossible without the ability to measure your response. Do you have the ability (REW, Omnimic)??
the closest thing I have to what you're talking about is Audyssey in my AVR. I'm really just trying to justify waiting for the next sale to buy the sub I want (Outlaw LFM-1 EX), and keeping the Energy 10" I have until then. It's easier to justify if I get to use the one I have now in a dual-sub configuration when I do buy the other one. The alternative is to return the one I have and spend double on the Outlaw... it's an option, just a favorite option (so sayeth my wallet)
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post #28 of 59 Old 07-29-2014, 04:38 PM
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Audyssey ain't gonna cut it, you need to be able to measure your response....I'd return the sub and go for the Outlaw now while it's still on sale!
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post #29 of 59 Old 07-29-2014, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
The Omni12 sub is pretty solid by the specs. I think those 2 could work well together.
Quote:
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+1
Just want to make it sure before I will buy it. Basically both have the same specs?
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post #30 of 59 Old 07-29-2014, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post
Just want to make it sure before I will buy it. Basically both have the same specs?
Yes it should make for a nice setup. The reason why ID gets pushed is because of the price vs performance ratio. There are many brick and mortar subs that are very capable, but they cost a ton. That being said the S12 was overpriced at 800.00 but for 300.00-400.00 it is a good buy. I found some info on it being comparable to a HSU VTF-3

http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics...io/146721.html
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