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post #1 of 37 Old 07-29-2014, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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BIC F12 crossover advice

Hey guys! I initially purchased a Yamaha HTIB and have been slowly upgrading piece by piece as I can afford it. I just got to upgrade the subwoofer (finally!) and bought a BIC F12 to take over the awful low end coming from my HTIB sub.

My question: with crappy little Yamaha HTIB satellite speakers (but decent HTD L2 center), where should I set the crossover on my F12?
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post #2 of 37 Old 07-29-2014, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clanderson View Post
Hey guys! I initially purchased a Yamaha HTIB and have been slowly upgrading piece by piece as I can afford it. I just got to upgrade the subwoofer (finally!) and bought a BIC F12 to take over the awful low end coming from my HTIB sub.

My question: with crappy little Yamaha HTIB satellite speakers (but decent HTD L2 center), where should I set the crossover on my F12?
It's hard to say without knowing the low end limit of the Yamaha's, but I'd guess it's not very low. You're probably going to need to set the F12's crossover pretty high, at least 150hz if not higher so as not to have a big hole in the response between the Yamaha's and F12. Sure, the sub may become somewhat localized, but that's better than a response hole.
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post #3 of 37 Old 07-29-2014, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I've got the current Yamaha subwoofer set at 80hz, but it's so terrible that I don't think I can set it any higher haha.

I didn't think 150 was even a viable option
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post #4 of 37 Old 07-29-2014, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by clanderson View Post
I've got the current Yamaha subwoofer set at 80hz, but it's so terrible that I don't think I can set it any higher haha.

I didn't think 150 was even a viable option
It's probably not. The F12 drops off pretty steeply above about 100hz, so I'd probably keep it at 80
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post #5 of 37 Old 07-29-2014, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rrskda View Post
It's probably not. The F12 drops off pretty steeply above about 100hz, so I'd probably keep it at 80
Oh, yikes... Would the Polk 505 or Dayton 1200 do any better?
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post #6 of 37 Old 07-29-2014, 07:07 PM
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Does your receiver have any type of room correction software like Audyssey, and if so what did it set the crossover for? The F12 will easily handle 100Hz, and probably extend to 150Hz, but being that it's a budget subwoofer I wouldn't really expect it to do so effortlessly (i.e. with a high level of sound quality).

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post #7 of 37 Old 07-29-2014, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by rrskda View Post
It's probably not. The F12 drops off pretty steeply above about 100hz, so I'd probably keep it at 80
I'm curious as where you found this data. Any links?
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post #8 of 37 Old 07-29-2014, 08:33 PM
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Please give us the make and model number of all your equipment so we can better help you!!!

What are the settings for your speakers on your receiver?

As for the knobs on the back of the Bic F12 the crossover knob should be at its highest possible setting.
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post #9 of 37 Old 07-29-2014, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
I'm curious as where you found this data. Any links?
I'd like to know this as well. As far as I know, only the woofers inductance, and of course it's built in crossover would limit its upper frequency response, and I can't see the inductance limiting it to under probably 500hz or more. The crossover would, but still it should be good to its highest value and then some, a lot some actually.
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post #10 of 37 Old 07-29-2014, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry everybody! I am using a dinky little Yamaha HTR-3066 with YPAO room correction. YPAO put my sub volume at +10 for some reason (highest positive increment) and the crossover to 60hz I believe.

As for your question about my "settings for (my) speakers on (my) receiver", I'm not sure what you mean.

I'm also kind of wary of setting the crossover too high - if I do that with my current subwoofer, the midbass is very boomy. But thanks for all of your help so far folks, I dig it!
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post #11 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by clanderson View Post
Sorry everybody! I am using a dinky little Yamaha HTR-3066 with YPAO room correction. YPAO put my sub volume at +10 for some reason (highest positive increment) and the crossover to 60hz I believe.

As for your question about my "settings for (my) speakers on (my) receiver", I'm not sure what you mean.

I'm also kind of wary of setting the crossover too high - if I do that with my current subwoofer, the midbass is very boomy. But thanks for all of your help so far folks, I dig it!
What are your speakers? Those we need to know to advise you of the proper crossover to set.

The only HTIB speakers that I know yamaha has is the Yamaha NS-SP1800BL 5.1-Channel Home Theater Speaker System.

That system requires a crossover of at least 120hz.

By settings for your speakers on your receiver. What did you receiver/YAPO set your speakers at. They aren't always accurate. Like the 60hz crossover when you should have it set at at least 120hz is a huge red flag and can explain your disappointment with the sound.

I know your are weary of setting the crossover to high but you have no choice with small satelite speakers!!!!!
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post #12 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post
What are your speakers? Those we need to know to advise you of the proper crossover to set.

The only HTIB speakers that I know yamaha has is the Yamaha NS-SP1800BL 5.1-Channel Home Theater Speaker System.

That system requires a crossover of at least 120hz.

By settings for your speakers on your receiver. What did you receiver/YAPO set your speakers at. They aren't always accurate. Like the 60hz crossover when you should have it set at at least 120hz is a huge red flag and can explain your disappointment with the sound.

I know your are weary of setting the crossover to high but you have no choice with small satelite speakers!!!!!
I gotcha!
My system is:
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio...ckage/yht-399/ and the speakers that come with that are the NS-AP2600BL model.

Hahaha no need to get all in a fit! I said before I was wary of doing so because of my crappy sub
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post #13 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 08:13 AM
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Kinda had a question, is the Bic F12 a good sub?
I've read mixed reviews.
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post #14 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by glhurd View Post
Kinda had a question, is the Bic F12 a good sub?
I've read mixed reviews.
It depends upon the definition of "good". BIC has always provided decent (or good) sound on a shoestring budget. And since most people would never think of spending $500 or more on a sub (but have no problem dropping a lot more than that for a day or two at Disneyland with the family), BIC ends up selling a lot of subwoofers (and speakers). They've also been around for over 40 years. Companies like BIC, Dayton and NXG make a lot of money providing solid bang-for-the-buck entry-level subs. But if you're looking for a $200 sub that has $500 sound, buy the $500 sub.

The mixed reviews really aren't mixed. If they were really mixed, people would stop buying them in the quantities that they do. Go to Amazon and look at several BIC subs (V1220, F12 or PL-200) or Dayton or NXG. How many positive reviews vs negative reviews? The vast, vast majority give positive reviews and are happy with their purchase.
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post #15 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 10:59 AM
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I had this exact issue come up this weekend. My Dad is using a Yamaha HTIB. When I upgraded a few months back I gave him my F12. While I think generally 80hz is the sweet spot, I actually recommended him to set the crossover at 100hz, simply because the Yamaha speakers are so weak on the low end.

As far as the F12 being a good subwoofer, it depends on what you're looking for. My SVS PC12+ absolutely destroys the thing, it also cost $1000 more. The F12 is a very solid sub in the $200 price category, but there are certainly better subs out there (which is always true).

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post #16 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clanderson View Post
I gotcha!
My system is:
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio...ckage/yht-399/ and the speakers that come with that are the NS-AP2600BL model.

Hahaha no need to get all in a fit! I said before I was wary of doing so because of my crappy sub
Ok your system with its really small speakers requires a crossover of at least 120hz-150hz.

By setting it to only 60-80hz you are missing audio from that point until at least 120hz. This creates poor sound quality. This is probably why your system sounded horrible to begin with

So crank the crossover knob on F12 to max and set the crossover on your receiver to 120hz and all speakers to SMALL.

If you want to use a lower crossover you NEED NEW SPEAKERS! Speakers that are at least rated down to -3b at 80hz
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Kinda had a question, is the Bic F12 a good sub?
I've read mixed reviews.
If all you have to spend on a subwoofer is $200 its the best one on the market currently and has been for awhile

Polk PSW505 is a nice alternative when you find them on sale for $200 otherwise I recommend Bic F12
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post #17 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 11:52 AM
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I use an F12 for my personal computer audio and it should do a good job for you just as it does for me. I recommend you experiment. Try different crossover settings in your receiver room setup software and leave it at the setting that sounds best to you. No need to make it more complicated than it is.
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post #18 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys! I wasn't trying to make anything complicated, just wanted to know if I was going in the right direction and if the f12 could handle some of the midbass load. After all, HZ and DBs are HZ and DBs.

The f12 is definitely sort of a transition sub for me. Until I can get something like an SVS PB-2000 or get ambition to build my own. But I don't plan to take out a mortgage to build a theater either but I believe the next step is to grab up some HTD L2/L3 towers!
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post #19 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by clanderson View Post
The f12 is definitely sort of a transition sub for me. Until I can get something like an SVS PB-2000 or get ambition to build my own. But I don't plan to take out a mortgage to build a theater either but I believe the next step is to grab up some HTD L2/L3 towers!
Nothing at all wrong with that. I replaced a terrible Sony sub (SA-20) with an F12. It did a admerable job for a few years before I replaced it with my SVS. As others have said, if $200 is the most you can spend the F12 is a very solid choice.
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post #20 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post
Ok your system with its really small speakers requires a crossover of at least 120hz-150hz.

By setting it to only 60-80hz you are missing audio from that point until at least 120hz. This creates poor sound quality. This is probably why your system sounded horrible to begin with
'at least' being the key words there. Those speakers have a 2.5" 'woofer', which I suspect can only get to 150Hz on a good day. My guess is the voices are going to sound awfully chesty with that speaker/subwoofer combo.

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post #21 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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'at least' being the key words there. Those speakers have a 2.5" 'woofer', which I suspect can only get to 150Hz on a good day. My guess is the voices are going to sound awfully chesty with that speaker/subwoofer combo.
Yes, very well put. Fortunately, most of the voices will come from the HTD L2 center. Though maybe I need to grab some "transition" L/Rs as well
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post #22 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 04:10 PM
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Yes, very well put. Fortunately, most of the voices will come from the HTD L2 center. Though maybe I need to grab some "transition" L/Rs as well

What about the equivalent HTD bookshelf speakers? You really don't want to play mix-n-match with the front stage, so seeing as you already have the HTD center the natural choice would be the L2 bookshelf speakers.

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post #23 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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What about the equivalent HTD bookshelf speakers? You really don't want to play mix-n-match with the front stage, so seeing as you already have the HTD center the natural choice would be the L2 bookshelf speakers.
It would matter that much? I figured they'd have similar enough drivers. But that would kind of lower the cost of my projected system I suppose
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It would matter that much? I figured they'd have similar enough drivers. But that would kind of lower the cost of my projected system I suppose
Matching the front 3 speakers is extremely important!!!!

If you have the HTD Level Two Center, you need either the HTD Level Two Bookshelves or HTD Level Two Towers.
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post #25 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Matching the front 3 speakers is extremely important!!!!

If you have the HTD Level Two Center, you need either the HTD Level Two Bookshelves or HTD Level Two Towers.
You sure do yell a lot(!!!!!!!!!)

But if I were to get the level 3s, my end-goal would be to also have a level threw center, and live with mismatched high quality speakers rather than mismatched janky speakers.

But point taken
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I'm not sure Rob was yelling per se, but merely trying to emphasis the fact that having disparate front speakers is an ill-advised strategy. If your ultimate goal is upgrading to the L3 series then getting the bookshelf version for the left and right now would probably be OK, seeing as how they're at least from the same manufacturer. Due to the significant role a center plays you should probably get the L3 version sooner than later, just to ensure everything is 'timbre' matched (that's a fancy way of saying 'sounds the same').
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post #27 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
I'm not sure Rob was yelling per se, but merely trying to emphasis the fact that having disparate front speakers is an ill-advised strategy. If your ultimate goal is upgrading to the L3 series then getting the bookshelf version for the left and right now would probably be OK, seeing as how they're at least from the same manufacturer. Due to the significant role a center plays you should probably get the L3 version sooner than later, just to ensure everything is 'timbre' matched (that's a fancy way of saying 'sounds the same').
Hahaha sure, I understand. Didn't mean any offense - I thought it was pretty funny haha. I should've probably phrased it differently.

But! Yes, you're right. I'd definitely say a L2 and L3 mix would sound better than a L2 and Yamaha mix haha. I'm just afraid the L2s won't be "enough".
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post #28 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
I'd like to know this as well. As far as I know, only the woofers inductance, and of course it's built in crossover would limit its upper frequency response, and I can't see the inductance limiting it to under probably 500hz or more. The crossover would, but still it should be good to its highest value and then some, a lot some actually.
my statement was based on this graph I'd found:

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post #29 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rrskda View Post
my statement was based on this graph I'd found:

Do you know if that graph is with the crossover engaged, and at what frequency if it was?

It sure looks like the built in crossover was engaged at around 70hz or so, and not the subs response with the crossover at it's maximum. I could be wrong.
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post #30 of 37 Old 07-30-2014, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
Do you know if that graph is with the crossover engaged, and at what frequency if it was?

It sure looks like the built in crossover was engaged at around 70hz or so, and not the subs response with the crossover at it's maximum. I could be wrong.
Silly me, I should have linked to the original thread it came from

BIC V1220 and BIC F12 Omnimic Frequency Response Graphs

It seems the crossover was set to 120hz

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