Would you spend a mere $200 for the best bass you've ever had? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 07-30-2014, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Would you spend a mere $200 for the best bass you've ever had?

I know many will spend $500+ easily on just one single sub, but I suggest everyone that wants good bass response spend $200 and get a Minidsp with appropriate plugin, a measurement mic, and download REW first and foremost and it will make a much bigger impact overall than a simple choice of one subwoofer over another.

I think many that have not already done so, will be dismayed, once they do measurements, by how much their room effects frequency response. I will go further and say even the best subwoofers cannot over come the rooms response unless they too include a measurement mic and DSP.

$200 is chump change in comparison to the price of good subs, and it will teach you things you didn't know, and make for much better overall system performance. I made three average at best, subs sound great. Imagine what it can do for even better performing subs.

I think this is overlooked more often than it should be. I wish I had purchased this years ago instead of months ago.
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post #2 of 39 Old 07-30-2014, 11:04 PM
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Uh, no.

I certainly understand where you are coming from, however, and agree that in a problem room measurements would really help.
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post #3 of 39 Old 07-30-2014, 11:41 PM
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I would think most people have Audyssey capable receivers at this point that do a fine job with EQ of all channels without much effort involved.
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post #4 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 12:47 AM
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I agree 100%.

I listen to a ton of music and it's very cool to be able to tweak the bass exactly how you want it, and to visualize the changes you are making since I measure all my favorite house curves.

I can tailor the bass in my room to sound so much better than what Audyssey could ever do (remember, I'm talking about my ears). Of course if I want flat bass I can do that too.

Even if you don't like to play with the bass frequency response - if you think you can plop down a sub(s) and then just run Audyssey and be fine without running measurements and spending a lot of time figuring out sub placement you are kidding yourself. Especially if you have multiple rows of seating.
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post #5 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 01:21 AM
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Why spend 200. My DSP on my inuke and my umc200 cover it just fine. Audyssey only for bass isn't for serious subs.
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post #6 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 03:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
Uh, no.

I certainly understand where you are coming from, however, and agree that in a problem room measurements would really help.
But if one can't measure their room, how do they know how good it is?
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post #7 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 03:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
I would think most people have Audyssey capable receivers at this point that do a fine job with EQ of all channels without much effort involved.
Although I don't have Audyssey, and I'd image many others don't either that run a Pioneer, or a few other brands, I'd be very shocked if it can do what REW and Minidsp, or Behringer FBD can do.
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post #8 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
But if one can't measure their room, how do they know how good it is?
Run test tones from 20-80hz. Download them and play every 5hz. You don't even need an SPL meter to hear a 10 db difference. Can easily hear 5db difference. Of course much more accurate with SPL meter.
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post #9 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 03:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
Run test tones from 20-80hz. Download them and play every 5hz. You don't even need an SPL meter to hear a 10 db difference. Can easily hear 5db difference. Of course much more accurate with SPL meter.
Maybe my ears suck, but I'd find it very difficult to detect the extent of peaks and valleys by just playing test tones and listening to them. Even if I could, I'd still need the same tools I mentioned earlier to fix them, and in addition, I could have used them to also measure it much more accurately.
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post #10 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 04:02 AM
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antimode 8033 Cinema, run it, and that's it. No need to mess around with hours, with complex software calibrated mic, then fiddle with presets.
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post #11 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
Although I don't have Audyssey, and I'd image many others don't either that run a Pioneer, or a few other brands, I'd be very shocked if it can do what REW and Minidsp, or Behringer FBD can do.
Indeed, it can't. I tried it using a Marantz AV-8801 I had on test. I ended up keeping my old faithful Rotel RSP-1098 sending sub output to a Behringer DCX2496 splitting it amongst 4 subs (with different delays, different levels and different EQ). It was much better than anything delivered through two sub-channels with Audissey treatment. Even for 2 channels music, using bass management with 4 subs delivers a much better experienced once everything is correctly calibrated.

The approach of using multiple subs has been heavily researched and documented.
See for reference:

- T. Welti, A. Devantier (low-frequency_optimization_using_multiple_subwoofers.p df)

- F. Toole (Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms)

- E. Geddes (Multiple Subwoofers after Geddes)
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post #12 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
antimode 8033 Cinema, run it, and that's it. No need to mess around with hours, with complex software calibrated mic, then fiddle with presets.
I believe the Antimode costs more, and delivers less. If one wants a device that does the work for them, and only has one sub, it's a reasonable choice, but if one wants to learn a lot, and they don't mind doing the work, and they want a lot more adjustment capability, the Minidsp, measurement mic, and REW can't be beat. For the record, I'm running 3 subwoofers.

Here is a list of things I can do with the Minidsp and REW, that probably can't be done with an Antimode:

1. Control up to 4 separate subwoofers including time delay and phase.
2. Easily level match all of them.
3. Check for the best phase on each sub on the fly.
4. Generate ghraphs to be able to see just what is going on in the room, and for before and after measurements.
5. Set the exact target window in db's I want to try and achieve.
6. Set the maximum boost the eq can do.
7. Create a house curve, final eq.
8. Generate any test tone frequency, or pink and white noise (which is useful for other things).
9. I can eq each sub individually or any combination of them together.


There are probably other things I can't think of at the moment. Again, from what I understand the Antimode works pretty well, and for some, that don't like doing testing and measurements (I actually find it pretty fun and interesting), only has one or maybe two subs, it's an option for sure. But, that's not really the point, because even if one uses an Antimode, it is still supporting my main point, and that is tools such as these are actually more worth while than just sub selection alone, and I think these types of tools should be a much more under consideration than just which subwoofer to get, and the price isn't that high to be able to get the most out of whatever subs are chosen..
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post #13 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 01:59 PM
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Or I press two buttons and it does it's thing.

Also why would I need dual SB Ultra 13 subs? In a 3.5m x 2.5m room lol. Can't be bothered to spend dozens of hours plotting graphs, re-running tests, using filters, then re-running. Then reading a 2" thick guide on filters...like the BFD guide.

nah.

$280 + shipping + customs + VAT probably works out more than the antimode 8033 Cinema

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post #14 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 02:27 PM
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I agree with the OP. I would own a Mini DSP if the company would take credit cards or checks. Some of us don't have Paypal.
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post #15 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
Or I press two buttons and it does it's thing.

Also why would I need dual SB Ultra 13 subs? In a 3.5m x 2.5m room lol. Can't be bothered to spend dozens of hours plotting graphs, re-running tests, using filters, then re-running. Then reading a 2" thick guide on filters...like the BFD guide.

nah.

$280 + shipping + customs + VAT probably works out more than the antimode 8033 Cinema
You're making it sound way more difficult than it is, but besides that, you are already addressing your rooms response with something, and that is certainly better than nothing, so really this thread wouldn't apply to someone that is doing something. It's more for those that aren't doing anything. I also didn't tell you how many subs you need.

I also didn't spend dozens of hours, nor reading 2" thick manuals. In fact now that I have used it before, I could tune my room all over again in well under an hour. Once you have the initial settings done, the levels and phase set right, you simply position your microphone in the listening position, run the sweep in REW, and it tells you exactly what eq frequencies to use, the gain and the Q and you simply input it into the Minidsp, it's not hard, and besides, some people (like myself) like to learn instead of just letting a device do something without having any idea what it is doing or why it is.
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post #16 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
I agree with the OP. I would own a Mini DSP if the company would take credit cards or checks. Some of us don't have Paypal.
They do take credit cards. That's how I purchased mine.
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post #17 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post
I agree with the OP. I would own a Mini DSP if the company would take credit cards or checks. Some of us don't have Paypal.
you can pay them with credit card through paypal.

I agree with OP, EQ is super important for bass frequencies. Audyssey does NOT EQ subs, unless it has SUB EQ on the highest end receivers, even then it's not good compared to miniDSP or other EQ.

Sub before EQ:



After EQ:



Another thing to note is that if your source is a computer and you are only listening to music, then Equalizer APO can do anything a miniDSP can. The miniDSP is nice though as it works on any source, as it EQ's after your receiver processes. Great for movies.
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post #18 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
Although I don't have Audyssey, and I'd image many others don't either that run a Pioneer, or a few other brands, I'd be very shocked if it can do what REW and Minidsp, or Behringer FBD can do.
I hear ya. Though, XT32 is good stuff. http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/multeq/flavors
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post #19 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
Audyssey does NOT EQ subs, unless it has SUB EQ on the highest end receivers, even then it's not good compared to miniDSP or other EQ.
This is incorrect information. All but the extreme lowest end of Audyssey versions EQ the sub (2EQ). The highest version, MultEQ XT32, does it extremely well but MultEQ and MultEQ XT also EQ the sub. Audyssey SubEQ simply sets distance and level for two subs independently, that is all.
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post #20 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
I know many will spend $500+ easily on just one single sub, but I suggest everyone that wants good bass response spend $200 and get a Minidsp with appropriate plugin, a measurement mic, and download REW first and foremost and it will make a much bigger impact overall than a simple choice of one subwoofer over another.
Not sure here, but are you suggesting you can spend less on a sub if you go the MiniDSP/mic/REW route? If so, I completely disagree.

However, I strongly agree that if you aren't measuring your response (and correcting said response in some way), you're cheating yourself out of whatever you do have invested in sub(s).
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post #21 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Not sure here, but are you suggesting you can spend less on a sub if you go the MiniDSP/mic/REW route? If so, I completely disagree.

However, I strongly agree that if you aren't measuring your response (and correcting said response in some way), you're cheating yourself out of whatever you do have invested in sub(s).
No, I'm suggesting that room measurement ability and eq are more important than subwoofer choice, but the better the subs + the above mentioned tools, the better the system will be. Just buying good subs is only getting half way there. I have managed to get average performing subs to sound pretty good though.

Basically, people will spend $1000+ on good subs, when another $200 would take them to an all new level, but it's rarely considered it seems, maybe because many just don't know.
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post #22 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
No, I'm suggesting that room measurement ability and eq are more important than subwoofer choice, but the better the subs + the above mentioned tools, the better the system will be. Just buying good subs is only getting half way there. I have managed to get average performing subs to sound pretty good though.

Basically, people will spend $1000+ on good subs, when another $200 would take them to an all new level, but it's rarely considered it seems, maybe because many just don't know.
I'd go so far as saying that buying good subs only gets you about 1/4 of the way there.
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post #23 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
Another thing to note is that if your source is a computer and you are only listening to music, then Equalizer APO can do anything a miniDSP can. The miniDSP is nice though as it works on any source, as it EQ's after your receiver processes. Great for movies.
I'm glad you brought this up. I downloaded it a little while ago and eq'ed the two subs in my computer room setup, and just doing a quick and dirty for now, it sounds a lot better.
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post #24 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 06:10 PM
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They do take credit cards. That's how I purchased mine.
That's something new. But, sadly, they don't accept Amex, which is the one I use.
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post #25 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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That's something new. But, sadly, they don't accept Amex, which is the one I use.
I really wish you could find a way around this as it really is an awesome tool.
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post #26 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 06:42 PM
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I agree with the OP. Getting a Mic and learning REW was one of the best bang for the buck improvements I had for my system.

One thing to note about Equalizer APO is that it only works in DirectSound mode. It's not enabled if you're bitstreaming surround sound codecs.

Instead of a MiniDSP I just bought a pro amp (Crown XTi2002) with build in DSP. I just manually entered in the EQ filters REW suggested.
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post #27 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by |Tch0rT| View Post
I agree with the OP. Getting a Mic and learning REW was one of the best bang for the buck improvements I had for my system.

One thing to note about Equalizer APO is that it only works in DirectSound mode. It's not enabled if you're bitstreaming surround sound codecs.

Instead of a MiniDSP I just bought a pro amp (Crown XTi2002) with build in DSP. I just manually entered in the EQ filters REW suggested.
Weren't you, or maybe even still are on Diyma years back? I recognize the screen name.
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post #28 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 07:16 PM
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Weren't you, or maybe even still are on Diyma years back? I recognize the screen name.
Yup I was back on there from 2005... I got banned a couple of years ago for insulting Ant.

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post #29 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Yup I was back on there from 2005... I got banned a couple of years ago for insulting Ant.
I was on there from maybe I don't know, 2006 or so, and quit being active around 2009 or there about as I shifted towards home audio. Ant...LOL!
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post #30 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
I know many will spend $500+ easily on just one single sub, but I suggest everyone that wants good bass response spend $200 and get a Minidsp with appropriate plugin, a measurement mic, and download REW first and foremost and it will make a much bigger impact overall than a simple choice of one subwoofer over another.

I think many that have not already done so, will be dismayed, once they do measurements, by how much their room effects frequency response. I will go further and say even the best subwoofers cannot over come the rooms response unless they too include a measurement mic and DSP.

$200 is chump change in comparison to the price of good subs, and it will teach you things you didn't know, and make for much better overall system performance. I made three average at best, subs sound great. Imagine what it can do for even better performing subs.

I think this is overlooked more often than it should be. I wish I had purchased this years ago instead of months ago.
Nonsense. My ears alone will tell me which subs sounds better.

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