Setting up my Outlaw LFM-1 EX - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 08-05-2014, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Setting up my Outlaw LFM-1 EX

My new LFM-1 EX has arrived! Packaging was great - an inner carton with foam corners suspending the sub and an outer carton with cardboard reinforced corners protected the enclosure in transit. The fabric bag in which the sub is placed did a good job of protecting it while I moved it into place. The floor spikes went in easily and were a lot heavier (read: sturdier) than I expected, as were the dimpled discs to use with my hardwood floor.

I still don't have it tweaked out completely but I'm getting there. I am using test tones and sweeps (from audiocheck.net) and I noticed that the max extension mode creates far too much room resonance for my room. I've got it in a living room, not a theater room, and that means lots of things that like to shake, buzz, and rattle. Anything below 20Hz really sounds bad, to be honest. Not because of the sub but because of the room it's in. at 10-14 Hz, the drivers in my mains and center are visibly disturbed by the sub's output. They are pushed in and out... a pretty strange phenomenon to me since I've never seen it before. Kinda scary the first time you see it . Allowing the sub to reproduce those frequencies with more power just results in more vibrations and terrible sounds. Max output mode rolls off sooner and while it doesn't completely eliminate the problem, it does help quite a bit.

The sub crawl is next, but so far I've got the gain mostly where I want it. I had to tweak the crossover settings in my AVR to get the handoff from sub to mains to sound decent. Right now I have the sub set with an upper limit of 120Hz and the mains with a lower limit of 100 Hz. Setting them both to the same point resulted in a pretty dead spot at that point. Configured this way it is a relatively seamless transition. I really wish there was a way to beef up the 20-26 Hz output but really limit anything below 20Hz... I might be able to do better once I have a more advanced AVR (hopefully soon).

I guess my question is this - is there anything else I should be doing to get this thing configured properly? I'm sure I will need to revisit everything once I have it in its optimal location, but what else can/should I do to configure my new sub by ear? Thanks!
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post #2 of 26 Old 08-05-2014, 03:11 PM
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You don't want to boost the low end output too much, that can be hard on the driver. I would also be careful about running 10 to 14 Hz test tones, again hard on the driver. Don't run those tones at loud volumes. If your speakers' drivers are moving during test tones that deep, that is strange, especially since they are crossed over so high. What AVR are you using? It sounds like its doing a bad job of high passing the mains.
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post #3 of 26 Old 08-05-2014, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
You don't want to boost the low end output too much, that can be hard on the driver. I would also be careful about running 10 to 14 Hz test tones, again hard on the driver. Don't run those tones at loud volumes. If your speakers' drivers are moving during test tones that deep, that is strange, especially since they are crossed over so high. What AVR are you using? It sounds like its doing a bad job of high passing the mains.
what I mean is that the air being moved by the sub moves the drivers in my mains. Just like any other vibration or rattle, I guess. I'm pretty confident that the AVR isn't attempting to drive 10Hz to the mains . If I run that tone with the sub turned off, the mains do not budge.

FWIW, it's a lower end Denon from a few years ago
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post #4 of 26 Old 08-05-2014, 04:07 PM
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Shady's advice is solid. Don't run those test tones at loud volumes! As far as things in the room rattling and shaking, well welcome to the world of real subwoofers. I've had to silence dozens of things around the house (rattling doors, pictures, paintings, metal wall art, and on and on). It's all part of the process. And the rattle hunt takes time because just when you think you have it all solved, another piece of music or another movie will find more rattles for you to take care of. It's all frequency specific.

Oh, I've never heard anyone having problems with the mains acting that way.
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post #5 of 26 Old 08-05-2014, 04:15 PM
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What flavor of Audyssey does your Denon have?

Here's my basic setup for one sub with Audyssey:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Set the gain on the sub to around 12:00-2:00. Set phase to "0".

1. Connect sub and place it at the MLP
2. Do the sub crawl to determine the best location
3. Place sub in that location
4. Run Audyssey, first mic position only and "calculate"
5. Look to see where Audyssey has set your sub trim, you want it to be around -5db to -8db ideally
6. Adjust the gain on the sub up or down as needed
7. Repeat 4-6 until you get the sub trim around -5db to -8db
8. Run the full Audyssey calibration
9. Bump up the sub trim from 3db to 6db to your preference
10. Enjoy!

Hope this helps!
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post #6 of 26 Old 08-05-2014, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the responses, guys

I will definitely avoid playing those tones at high volume. It's hard on my ears as well as the sub

I don't know what flavor of Audyssey I have, but I know I have it. How can I tell? All I know for sure is that it's just a part of the on-screen interface for my receiver. I plug in the mic, put it in the MLP and it does its thing. I'm strongly considering upgrading my receiver tonight. I have about $500 in BestBuy certificates saved up and they seem to have a lot of good options in that range. I might go up to $700 to get the Denon 2100, not sure yet. The one I have sounds great and does HDMI switching, which were my main requirements when I bought it 3-4 years ago. Now the wife wants bluetooth and airplay, and I'd like a few new features as well... if a better Audyssey is part of what the 2100 gives me then it'll be an easy decision to make. I guess I just assumed that they all had the same flavor. That doesn't make any sense, but I never really thought about it
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post #7 of 26 Old 08-05-2014, 09:13 PM
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What's the model number of your Denon? Do you have the owners manual? If not, I'm sure it would be easy to find online.

You should read this.
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post #8 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 08:40 AM
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The Denon AVR-X2100 does have Audyssey Multi EQ XT which is a higher level than the MultiEQ I am guessing you have with your older model.
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post #9 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 12:36 PM
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What is your gain on the sub set to?


You probably don't need to set it higher than 3 (1/4 turn).


I don't think your sub is driving your fronts and center. More likely your fronts are getting some signal from the receiver. The only way to tell would be to disconnect the fronts and see if the drivers move.
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post #10 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
What is your gain on the sub set to?


You probably don't need to set it higher than 3 (1/4 turn).


I don't think your sub is driving your fronts and center. More likely your fronts are getting some signal from the receiver. The only way to tell would be to disconnect the fronts and see if the drivers move.
you guys are right. I just tested it again, with the sub completely disconnected and powered off... and no matter what crossover frequency I selected for the mains, they played every tone all the way down to 10Hz, where the drivers really extend. of course the only thing I heard at those very low frequencies was resonance, but if the crossover was working it should have not even attempted to play those, right?

The only setting that seemed to have a real limiting effect was setting them to "small" versus "large". when set to large, even the 30Hz tone was pretty powerful (impressive in my book for towers w/ 6.5" drivers) and it dropped off a lot below that. Set to small, it dropped off at about 50Hz.

BTW, this is a Denon AVR-591 and the sub is set somewhere around 2 or 3 on the gain dial... so is the crossover just junk or is it perhaps broken? If I replace the AVR will I be looking at a similar issue, meaning this is a common thing? Thanks again for all the help.
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post #11 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 03:35 PM
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Ummm...when the speakers are set to "large" you have disabled the bass management and the crossover is not engaged. All speakers should be set to "small".

Large=bass management off
Small=bass management on
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post #12 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjoshuad View Post
Denon AVR-591
Yup, Multi EQ only.
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post #13 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Ummm...when the speakers are set to "large" you have disabled the bass management and the crossover is not engaged. All speakers should be set to "small".

Large=bass management off
Small=bass management on
right, I kinda knew that which is why I had them set to small, but even then they are playing tones well below where the crossover is supposed to cut them off. I switched it back and forth to test the effect and they definitely played less bass as small, but it wasn't a total cutoff. I am leaning more and more towards upgrading my AVR.
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post #14 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 04:15 PM
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The crossover is not a brickwall, it's a slope that slowly curves downward below the crossover point. Getting output at 50hz with a 80hz crossover is completely normal.

That being said, I think upgrading your AVR to one with at least XT if not XT32 is a great idea!
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post #15 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
What flavor of Audyssey does your Denon have?

Here's my basic setup for one sub with Audyssey:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Set the gain on the sub to around 12:00-2:00. Set phase to "0".

1. Connect sub and place it at the MLP
2. Do the sub crawl to determine the best location
3. Place sub in that location
4. Run Audyssey, first mic position only and "calculate"
5. Look to see where Audyssey has set your sub trim, you want it to be around -5db to -8db ideally
6. Adjust the gain on the sub up or down as needed
7. Repeat 4-6 until you get the sub trim around -5db to -8db
8. Run the full Audyssey calibration
9. Bump up the sub trim from 3db to 6db to your preference
10. Enjoy!

Hope this helps!
I just got my Outlaw LF-1 Ex too and was needing help running Audyssey on it. Are those directions for the Denon X2000? If it is I have a few questions.

Regarding #1 , what is "MLP"? Regarding #5 , how do you check what the sub trim has been set to?
Finally, when you get to step 9, how do you bump up the sub trim from 3db to 6db? I apologize if these are dumb questions, but i've never had a true subwoofer before.
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post #16 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 04:48 PM
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Those directions are for any AVR with Audyssey.

MLP = Main Listening Position (where you sit when you listen)

To check sub trim, go to Speakers>Manual>Levels. You will adjust the sub trim in the same place.

Have you read your owners manual??
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post #17 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Warner2Bruce View Post
I just got my Outlaw LF-1 Ex too and was needing help running Audyssey on it. Are those directions for the Denon X2000? If it is I have a few questions.

Regarding #1 , what is "MLP"? Regarding #5 , how do you check what the sub trim has been set to?
Finally, when you get to step 9, how do you bump up the sub trim from 3db to 6db? I apologize if these are dumb questions, but i've never had a true subwoofer before.
grats on the new sub! the thing is massive, no? I've had a few subs before but nothing that approaches the level of extension or output that the EX can produce. I'm still getting it dialed in but it really is a great sub from what I can tell so far.

As for the XO questions I had earlier - since it's not a 'brick wall', is there any point where it will completely roll off? I set it to 120Hz and was still getting sound from my mains at 26 Hz. To me that seems like it should be completely off by that point. Maybe I just don't really understand crossovers... yet
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post #18 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 09:03 PM
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Are you certain you have your mains set to "small"? If so, that's a stumper.

Maybe when you turn off your sub your AVR is disabling bass management somehow...?
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post #19 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Are you certain you have your mains set to "small"? If so, that's a stumper.

Maybe when you turn off your sub your AVR is disabling bass management somehow...?
yes, they are set to small. the low frequencies are much louder when they are set to large, confirming what you said about that disabling bass management. The low frequencies do get significantly quieter when the mains are set to small, but they still produce the sound. it's entirely possible that turning the sub off affects how the AVR treats mains, but I don't know how that would work.

It's not a huge deal, honestly... I mean it does sound pretty great this way. But, given the relatively low power of my AVR I was hoping that offloading the lower frequencies completely to the sub would leave more power for the AVR to drive the higher ones. I'm concerned that the XO in the AVR isn't functioning properly and could fail completely... but I'm also concerned that spending $600+ for a new AVR is mostly a waste if this is the way it's expected to work.
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post #20 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by djjoshuad View Post
grats on the new sub! the thing is massive, no? I've had a few subs before but nothing that approaches the level of extension or output that the EX can produce. I'm still getting it dialed in but it really is a great sub from what I can tell so far.

As for the XO questions I had earlier - since it's not a 'brick wall', is there any point where it will completely roll off? I set it to 120Hz and was still getting sound from my mains at 26 Hz. To me that seems like it should be completely off by that point. Maybe I just don't really understand crossovers... yet
Yes it is definately massive.
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post #21 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 10:46 PM
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Those directions are for any AVR with Audyssey.

MLP = Main Listening Position (where you sit when you listen)

To check sub trim, go to Speakers>Manual>Levels. You will adjust the sub trim in the same place.

Have you read your owners manual??
Yes I have read it. But, I am still having difficulty. So, after I ran Audyssey I went to calculate, then levels to see where the subwoofer is set at and it's at -12.0 db. So, I turned up the volume on the Outlaw LF-1 Ex and ran Audyssey again from the 1st listening position and it still registers at -12.0 db. Long story short, no matter how much I turn up the volume (gain) it continues to register at -12.0 db. Can anyone help? I'm not sure what I am doing wrong.
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post #22 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm certainly no expert, but I think if Audyssey says -12bD then you need to turn the sub down, not up. Then remeasure and it should say (for instance) -9 dB. Turn it down some more and re-test again and you'll get to the recommended range. I have no idea why that is the recommended range but those steps are what I followed and it is working well for me.
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post #23 of 26 Old 08-06-2014, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjoshuad View Post
I'm certainly no expert, but I think if Audyssey says -12bD then you need to turn the sub down, not up. Then remeasure and it should say (for instance) -9 dB. Turn it down some more and re-test again and you'll get to the recommended range. I have no idea why that is the recommended range but those steps are what I followed and it is working well for me.
Thank you. Finally, got the sub set to zero.
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post #24 of 26 Old 08-07-2014, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Warner2Bruce View Post
Thank you. Finally, got the sub set to zero.
Glad you got that sorted.

The reason I recommend getting the trim level around -5db to -8db is because if you want to run your sub "hot" you have plenty of room to do so without going over "0db" on the trim. Going over "0db" on the AVRs trim level is generally not recommended, it can cause clipping (in some cases).
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post #25 of 26 Old 08-07-2014, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjoshuad View Post
yes, they are set to small. the low frequencies are much louder when they are set to large, confirming what you said about that disabling bass management. The low frequencies do get significantly quieter when the mains are set to small, but they still produce the sound. it's entirely possible that turning the sub off affects how the AVR treats mains, but I don't know how that would work.

It's not a huge deal, honestly... I mean it does sound pretty great this way. But, given the relatively low power of my AVR I was hoping that offloading the lower frequencies completely to the sub would leave more power for the AVR to drive the higher ones. I'm concerned that the XO in the AVR isn't functioning properly and could fail completely... but I'm also concerned that spending $600+ for a new AVR is mostly a waste if this is the way it's expected to work.
You'll still get output below the crossover, for example - here are my mains speakers (Klipschorns) set to large (green) and to small/80hz crossover (yellow). Although it makes it kind of hard to read the graph, please disregard that huge null at 57hz....I'm working on that.



Here's a better (stock) example:

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post #26 of 26 Old 08-07-2014, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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wow... so basically in your graph, the XO at 80Hz really doesn't do much of anything to the mains until it gets down to 28-ish Hz. Which is basically the same thing I'm hearing with my system. The difference at around 130Hz is interesting, though. I guess I had some major misconceptions about how XOs work.
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