SIX (6) Seaton Submersive install and exceptional service from Mark Seaton - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 89 Old 08-12-2014, 01:09 PM
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I sure don't need one of these (the subs, not Mark) but if one were to show up in my theater, I would not discard it.

I guess I could get close with a couple of stacked F2's but this has a very ominous feel to it. Did not see this on the available product section on Mark's forum !!!

Lust!! Lust !! Lust !!!
It was a seriously imposing assembly. You can see much more detail on that sub (which I had called the Devastator) here on the WBF. I definitely didn't charge enough for the first, but this beast including 8-12kW of power would be $18-20k... Of course you could have 8-10 SubMersives for a little less money. Of course all those SubMersives would take up much more space.

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post #32 of 89 Old 08-14-2014, 11:50 AM
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Just... wow

That room is awesome, it looks bigger than my entire apartment! lol
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post #33 of 89 Old 08-18-2014, 02:14 PM
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I was sorting through some more measurements before I meet up with @Carl Huff; to help while he does the Dirac Live calibration. Earlier some noted that the main/middle row looked quite good on its own with just the front 4 subwoofers, which is very true. As I've posted about many times, appropriate placement can give very good results across one row as you only have to deal with one front-to-back depth in the room. Here is a set of measurements showing the very consistent result across the left, middle & right of the middle row from having 4 subs spread evenly across the stage (no EQ or processing):


Then there's that green line... That is the response of the same 4 subwoofers driven to the same level with the microphone moved to the center of the rear row. This is actually a very common difference to observe in a back row of many rooms.

Now let's look at what happens in the rear row when we experiment with different delay settings within the workable range of 7-12ms I determined and explained earlier in this post. Here the green curve shows the main row response with 7ms of delay on the rear subs. The magenta curve shows 10ms of delay applied, red shows 8ms, and yellow shows 7ms where we see the response converge impressively close to that of the main row. Yes, this took a bit of experimentation, and this is why I didn't just stop at finding the strongest combination in the main row:


And finally we have the similar comparison in the front row (center seat) where we again have the middle row in green with 7ms delay on the rear subs. The red line shows 12ms of delay, magenta 8ms, and yellow the final 7ms we settled on.


I didn't have every increment saved as there were many measurements taken in between to zero in on the end result and it was already getting pretty late. Of course there are no magic surprises at some point in between as the interaction is generally a progression as more and less delay is added.

As I mentioned earlier, we used my Onkyo preamp to quickly give a teaser listen with just the LCR & subwoofers connected, so I quickly threw 3 filters at the response and gave it a whirl. I would have spent a little more time adjusting if it was going to be permanent, but this did the trick for a quick listen from the main row. On Wednesday we'll have the full flexibility and spacial averaging of the DataSat RS20i's Dirac Live correction system, but this sure was a fun teaser:

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post #34 of 89 Old 08-21-2014, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, AURO 3D is the real deal. I'll have more to say later but the Quested/DATASAT combo is a winner and DTS MA 7.1 / TRUE HD 7.1 simply doesn't it anymore.

We had a very good install last night with Mark Seaton and Carl Huff working 12 hours to dial in the system.

As good as the equipment is, the before and after listening with the two calibrators is what clearly made the difference.

Mark is just amazing. He needs to move into calibration. His ear and quick decisions were simply amazing. What a talent! The bass was so potent and effortless. Very punchy, defined and no bloating. I believe we measured flat to 5 Hz (according to Carl Huff who was there setting up the DATASAT). Art of Flight again and Reference Level plus!!

We played War of the Worlds and U-571, HOw to Train Your Dragon beyond reference and with full power and the subs just seemed to be able to keep going.

The Seatons ARE the subwoofer benchmark. Powerful, tight and tons of output. I will now permanently disconnect and remove my Buttkickers... no longer needed for seat movement!

Mark is really a talent. I have known him since my first install 12 years ago and he really knows his stuff. He was so efficient and so quick thinking along every facet of the calibration and simply wouldn't stop until all was ideal. He is not the cheapest sub, but you get what you pay for.

I've never heard a system sound so good. I'm sure Mark will chime in. We had some issues with the bass management on the DATASAT and Mark will likely address such. It was beyond my knowledge... but he knew how to proceed.

Highly, highly recommended!
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post #35 of 89 Old 08-21-2014, 12:12 PM
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He is not the cheapest sub, but you get what you pay for.
6 SubMersives at approximately $15,000. TWO (that would be 4 less than 6) JL Audio Gothams at $24,000.

Twelve (12) 15 inch drivers (SubMersives)vs Four (4) 13.5 inch drivers Gothams

14,400 watts of amp power vs 7600 (????) watts of power.

I could use a number of other subs as well (Rel, Velodyne, etc)

So price is relative. I personally think the SubMersive is the best value sub on the market. 5hz output (I have it as well), and the cleanest, tightest, most impactful bass I have ever heard. While this kind of money for a sub is out of reach for many, (maybe even most), it is still one heck of a sub for the money.

Congrats. You are correct. Mark is the best when it comes to room calibration.

Glad you are so pleased with the outcome.

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post #36 of 89 Old 08-21-2014, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Well, AURO 3D is the real deal. I'll have more to say later but the Quested/DATASAT combo is a winner and DTS MA 7.1 / TRUE HD 7.1 simply doesn't it anymore.

We had a very good install last night with Mark Seaton and Carl Huff working 12 hours to dial in the system.

As good as the equipment is, the before and after listening with the two calibrators is what clearly made the difference.

Mark is just amazing. He needs to move into calibration. His ear and quick decisions were simply amazing. What a talent! The bass was so potent and effortless. Very punchy, defined and no bloating. I believe we measured flat to 5 Hz (according to Carl Huff who was there setting up the DATASAT). Art of Flight again and Reference Level plus!!

We played War of the Worlds and U-571, HOw to Train Your Dragon beyond reference and with full power and the subs just seemed to be able to keep going.

The Seatons ARE the subwoofer benchmark. Powerful, tight and tons of output. I will now permanently disconnect and remove my Buttkickers... no longer needed for seat movement!

Mark is really a talent. I have known him since my first install 12 years ago and he really knows his stuff. He was so efficient and so quick thinking along every facet of the calibration and simply wouldn't stop until all was ideal. He is not the cheapest sub, but you get what you pay for.

I've never heard a system sound so good. I'm sure Mark will chime in. We had some issues with the bass management on the DATASAT and Mark will likely address such. It was beyond my knowledge... but he knew how to proceed.

Highly, highly recommended!


So awesome, glad you are loving it!

I agree 100% about Mark. Last winter a few of us were at Craig John's house and we took turns sitting in the sweet spot. While Mark was in the sweet spot he was moving his head around and quickly said, "if you move your seats up 6 inches you will flatten out the peak you have in the upper mid bass region," or something real close to that. We all took turns again in the sweet spot and I'll be damned if he wasn't right. It would have been cool if we would have measured the 2 spots - I'm sure it would have showed exactly what Mark was talking about.
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post #37 of 89 Old 08-22-2014, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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So awesome, glad you are loving it!

I agree 100% about Mark. Last winter a few of us were at Craig John's house and we took turns sitting in the sweet spot. While Mark was in the sweet spot he was moving his head around and quickly said, "if you move your seats up 6 inches you will flatten out the peak you have in the upper mid bass region," or something real close to that. We all took turns again in the sweet spot and I'll be damned if he wasn't right. It would have been cool if we would have measured the 2 spots - I'm sure it would have showed exactly what Mark was talking about.
Thanks!

Mark came up twice in the last week and his help wias invaluable.

But even more importantly, his subs perform! Even Carl, DATASAT calibrator, said they smoked the uber-$$$ Genelecs!

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #38 of 89 Old 08-22-2014, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Thanks!

Mark came up twice in the last week and his help wias invaluable.

But even more importantly, his subs perform! Even Carl, DATASAT calibrator, said they smoked the uber-$$$ Genelecs!
Oh yes, I LOVE the Submersive. GREAT sub. 6 of them calibrated by Mark is as good as it gets.
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post #39 of 89 Old 08-29-2014, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Well, AURO 3D is the real deal. I'll have more to say later but the Quested/DATASAT combo is a winner and DTS MA 7.1 / TRUE HD 7.1 simply doesn't it anymore.

We had a very good install last night with Mark Seaton and Carl Huff working 12 hours to dial in the system.

As good as the equipment is, the before and after listening with the two calibrators is what clearly made the difference.

Mark is just amazing. He needs to move into calibration. His ear and quick decisions were simply amazing. What a talent! The bass was so potent and effortless. Very punchy, defined and no bloating. I believe we measured flat to 5 Hz (according to Carl Huff who was there setting up the DATASAT). Art of Flight again and Reference Level plus!!

We played War of the Worlds and U-571, HOw to Train Your Dragon beyond reference and with full power and the subs just seemed to be able to keep going.

The Seatons ARE the subwoofer benchmark. Powerful, tight and tons of output. I will now permanently disconnect and remove my Buttkickers... no longer needed for seat movement!

Mark is really a talent. I have known him since my first install 12 years ago and he really knows his stuff. He was so efficient and so quick thinking along every facet of the calibration and simply wouldn't stop until all was ideal. He is not the cheapest sub, but you get what you pay for.

I've never heard a system sound so good. I'm sure Mark will chime in. We had some issues with the bass management on the DATASAT and Mark will likely address such. It was beyond my knowledge... but he knew how to proceed.

Highly, highly recommended!
Hi Jeff,

Thanks again for the kind words. The description that came to mind through our demo's after the obvious descriptors of clear, effortless and hugely enveloping was... violent.

A week later and I finally found some time to parse out some measurements that I think others would find of interest. There are many graphs as I went a bit deeper into the process, iterations and choices, not just the final result. Others CAN do this, but it take some serious attention to process, naming/saving data clearly, and knowledge of what you are looking for. I'll be adding all the graphs and further explanation in the following post!

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham

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post #40 of 89 Old 08-29-2014, 06:01 PM
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I have to start off being clear that I find the response correction and curve editing capabilities of Dirac Live as executed by the DataSat RS20i to be the best I've used yet. Any issues or limitations explained below get into matters of how bass management is executed alongside the response correction that the Dirac software allows. It should also be noted that not all Dirac implementations are equal, as available processing power does play a role in how resources are allocated toward correction.

Let's first look at what Dirac does with the subwoofers. In the earlier measurements I posted when we did the initial connection, setup and alignment of the system, I used a 2channel DSP to double check the potential of the various subwoofer locations and investigate what we might encounter when blending them all together. We used 2 of the available subwoofer channels on the RS20i to separately feed the mono subwoofer channel to the front 4 SubMersive HP's behind the screen on the Sub1 channel and the rear stacked pair of F2's on the Sub2 channel.

Here we see 4 curves showing Dirac turned off for the front 4 SubMersives in RED, 2 rear stacked F2s in BLUE, and then with Dirac engaged for each with the 4 front SM's in MAGENTA and rear F2's in CYAN.


You can see the very impressive smoothing of the response. What I found so impressive was that this was a measurement at the main seat but Carl fed Dirac 9 separate measurements spanning the front & rear of the main row along with 2 in the money seats. This was not just a correction of one location.

Next I took a look at how the 2 combined. While the issue is much less severe here, we did find a similar result when the rear subs were turned on with no delay as seen in GREEN, vs. the result of adding the 7ms of delay I had settled on in our previous measurement session seen in YELLOW.


Let's look at what happens when the delay on the rear stack of F2's is adjusted: 0ms, 3ms, 4ms, 5ms, 7ms, 10ms

These measurements show we have a good range to work with depending on what we find elsewhere.

Starting with the 7ms delay setting at the center of each row we have MAIN, REAR & FRONT:


Remembering that the calibration points were not taken fully in the front and rear rows (maybe another time), I first looked at the rear row as the upper bass notch is more easily affected by delay adjustments (shorter wavelengths are affected more per time adjustment): 3ms, 4ms, 7ms, 10ms

There's room for significant improvement there, although we can't pick & choose a graph from each, but have to get the best set...

Similar spot check of the front row: 0ms, 3ms, 4ms, 7ms, 10ms


Looking at the 3 sets of measurements I settled on a 3ms delay to the rear subs which give this set of measurements MAIN, REAR & FRONT:


Looking at the deviation from the middle row we have MAIN, REAR & FRONT:


Here's a final look in GREEN at what we settled on for the summation of the subwoofers as measured in the main row with the 7ms starting point and 0ms delay shown for comparison.


You can see we ended up with a starting response that is +/-3dB from 70Hz extending down below 10Hz to the lowest 5Hz extension setting Dirac allows.

This was with a starting flat target curve in Dirac. All adjustments to the subwoofer response was made to the subwoofers as a group. I believe I ended up shelving up the low end about 4dB around 35Hz and raised the subwoofer level 3-5dB over that of the main speakers. I didn't get measurements after we did the tweaking as everything was adjusted from the flat starting point.

Next up the sub-center channel integration...
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post #41 of 89 Old 08-29-2014, 07:41 PM
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With all 6 SubMersive and their 12,000W of power working together nicely, I took a look at the crossover between the center channel and subwoofers. Zooming in on the 35-180Hz range we find this at the main listening position:


While it's obvious the dip isn't preferred, we really need to see what the subs and center are contributing separately to see what where and how much we might be able to improve things:

You can clearly see the selected crossover frequency of 70Hz. Of particular note here is the blue line showing the combination dips well below the subwoofers and center around 80Hz. Since Dirac currently doesn't set delays, I had added some equivalent distance to the subwoofer's starting point (added delay to all the other speakers) and started by reducing the difference in delay(comparable to reducing subwoofer distance in most processors).

Here we see an adjustment of 2ms, and then 4ms to the combination:


Clearing this up we can see the very significant and audible improvement in the combined result at the main row:
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post #42 of 89 Old 08-29-2014, 08:40 PM
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I think I just lied to my wife when she asked what I was looking at so intently...I told her sub response graphs on the AVS Forum, but in reality I think this is porn!!

Nice job on the calibration, Mark.
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post #43 of 89 Old 08-29-2014, 08:42 PM
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Fantastic job! I wish that you could have made the Houston GTG. The submersives sounded great!

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post #44 of 89 Old 08-30-2014, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Mark,

What an amazing write up... only bettered by my 'in room' subs blasting away. I am still learning after almost 14 years on this forum. I'm glad you found the response correction and curve editing capabilities of DIRAC Live on the the DataSat RS20i to be the best you've used... yes quite an upgrade from my QSC DSPs. You seemed right at home with the software.

YEs, the subwoofer material is tight, punchy and seemingly endless power. I know we pack many subs in the room, but it is clear from above that your expertise in setting up EQ and your brilliant Submersive design is unmatched!

Thanks for taking the time to write up and post. It should almost be an FAQ for multiple sub set up!

I've been out of town all week long and am looking forward to getting in the theater to hear your masterpieces at work!

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #45 of 89 Old 08-30-2014, 05:55 AM
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I have to start off being clear that I find the response correction and curve editing capabilities of Dirac Live as executed by the DataSat RS20i to be the best I've used yet. .
great to hear - hopefully will implemented in more obtainable price points - the only thing I can see myself upgrading in future would be my room correction


congrats on set-up thebland - I know how amazing multiple Seatons sound

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post #46 of 89 Old 08-30-2014, 07:41 AM
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Wow. Room, subs, everything is awesome bland. Congrats! Mark, you need to make some trips to Toronto!

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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post #47 of 89 Old 08-30-2014, 11:15 AM
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This one thread that is really informational. Thanks for all the details and information.

Current Gear: PJ – BenQ PE7700; Receiver - Onkyo TX-SR805; Blu Ray - OppoBDP 103; Turntable - Dual CS-515 w/ Ortofon Super OM10; Amplifiers - OdysseyKhartago, Adcom GFA555, QSC RMX 1850HD; PEQ - Behringer FBD2496 [Near FieldSub], miniDSP 2×4 [Flanking Subs], REW; Speakers - 4 Pi (w/B&C DE250/JBL2226H) × 3 [LCR], Yamaha Crap × 2 [surrounds], Exodus Audio Maelstrom-X18" sealed sub [near field sub], LAB-12 based ported sub tuned to 22 Hz x2 [flanking subs, XO set at 40 Hz]
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post #48 of 89 Old 08-30-2014, 05:54 PM
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Mark - Thank you so much for taking the (considerable) time to share your knowledge and experience. What measurement software are you using? Thanks.

David
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post #49 of 89 Old 08-31-2014, 11:08 AM
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Mark - Thank you so much for taking the (considerable) time to share your knowledge and experience. What measurement software are you using? Thanks.

David
I used my TEF25 measurement system. There are a couple other professional measurement setups that take TDS measurements, but REW & OmniMic could have collected all the same data, and are a little faster or make it easier to display some other useful data as well. The TEF25 system does have advantages in loudspeaker development, and the TDS measurements are very consistent one measurement to the next. The only hurdle I've really run into with REW can be level calibrations and noise floor, but all can be worked around. How you get the data above really doesn't matter, just that you actually take the time to work through the various combinations in a manner that lets you see what's going on.
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post #50 of 89 Old 08-31-2014, 12:30 PM
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How you get the data above really doesn't matter, just that you actually take the time to work through the various combinations in a manner that lets you see what's going on.
Good point Mark and again, thanks for sharing. Your presentation is one of the first I've seen of how the time domain affects frequency response in real-world rooms. Truly great stuff and I can understand why theBland is so happy with your subs and service. Congrats to you both!
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post #51 of 89 Old 09-03-2014, 04:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Good point Mark and again, thanks for sharing. Your presentation is one of the first I've seen of how the time domain affects frequency response in real-world rooms. Truly great stuff and I can understand why theBland is so happy with your subs and service. Congrats to you both!
Mark is quite a talent. Been out of town last week and finally am home to start watching (bass heavy) films.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #52 of 89 Old 09-03-2014, 03:56 PM
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Good point Mark and again, thanks for sharing. Your presentation is one of the first I've seen of how the time domain affects frequency response in real-world rooms. Truly great stuff and I can understand why theBland is so happy with your subs and service. Congrats to you both!
Great to hear you and others could follow what I was after in the process.

To clarify, at these low frequencies and so far as blending multiple subs with each other, the "time domain" adjustments are more like a phase adjustment slanted toward the higher frequencies. While a 7ms delay is a 180 deg offset around 70Hz, it's only a 50 deg shift at 20Hz and 25 deg shift at 10Hz. After you verify each subwoofer delivers the required frequency range on its own, you know it's a time/phase issue if they don't combine constructively.

Where "timing" becomes both a matter of phasing and arrival time is the blend to the main speakers, especially the center channel. For the most part you are safe in assuming the subwoofers arrive later than their physical distance. You can then make adjustments knowing a better integration will *usually* come from adding to the distance entered into a processor, or in the less common situation of the DataSat that doesn't do the math for you, increase the delay on all the main speakers.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
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post #53 of 89 Old 09-03-2014, 07:04 PM
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Mark: What did you use to get an accurate distance (delay) for all of the speakers since the Datasat does not provide it. I have been told that REW can provide that but I know you don't use REW. If they were all your speakers then physical distance would at least be a start since each has a similar DSP driving it but in this case, you had at least two different types of speakers.

Curious.
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post #54 of 89 Old 09-05-2014, 05:51 PM
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Awesome system and a great explanation by Mark

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post #55 of 89 Old 09-05-2014, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Mark is really an asset here. He was so fast, nimble when he worked. He was a man on a mission. He's passionate and it shows. After a 12 hour day, he had to go through a bunch of demos...

He makes a helluva sub!

Thanks!

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post #56 of 89 Old 09-06-2014, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Mark

HT of the Month: Le Petit Trianon
dgage and its phillip like this.

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post #57 of 89 Old 09-10-2014, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are some screen shots immediately post-DIRAC room correction.



FRONT SUBWOOFER



REAR SUBWOOFERS



CENTER



RIGHT FRONT

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post #58 of 89 Old 09-10-2014, 09:07 AM
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Do you know why so much boost is required above 10kHz? seems slightly odd.
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post #59 of 89 Old 09-10-2014, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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That appears to be natural roll off of AMT drivers in LCRs and Front Heights.

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post #60 of 89 Old 09-10-2014, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
That appears to be natural roll off of AMT drivers in LCRs and Front Heights.
if it's the natural rolloff then why would you boost it that back up?

btw, the link to your HT of the Thread thread in your sig doesn't work (seems to end in a single quote and be missing the : in http://)
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