SIX (6) Seaton Submersive install and exceptional service from Mark Seaton - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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SIX (6) Seaton Submersive install and exceptional service from Mark Seaton

As I renovate my room, I wanted to post pix as I back to being a major bass head again!

Speakers are up, properly positioned, wires terminated.

Bed of 7 speakers, front heights, side heights and rear heights and Datasat RS-20i. Closed off equipment room for a ridiculously low noise floor and rebuilt baffle wall. SPeakers are Questeds (AMTs in the LCRs and Front Heights, and ribbons in the others.

Mark Seaton was at my house for 12 hours yesterday going over each of the 18 speakers and subs in preparation for a full Datasat calibration. I'm so glad he came as he is incredibly talented and will make for a successful calibration in two weeks as he corrected and located quite a few issues. He and his employee, Matt, worked tirelessly all day. They found a dead amp channel in a new amp and also found an mis-wired driver in a Quested speaker, confirmed proper phase in all speakers and checked all facets of the set up. He's experience and knowledge is invaluable - what he hears and then confirms via analysis is just amazing. I can't say enough about his commitment to excellence and incredible subwoofers. I can't tell you how impressed I was with his level of expertise. He will come in and aid in the final calibration with the other calibrator in 2 weeks (Carl, an ex-Datasat engineer) as I want his input for the final sub calibration. He and his employee, Matt, worked a very long day and fully prepped the room for the final Datasat calibration. The room is sounding great and the bass demo we did last night was simply insane (Art of Flight) and effortlessly loud, tight, deep and powerful. The balance of the 4 Seatons up front behind the screen with the 2 Seaton F2's in the rear corner (tower) gives me a very flat response BEFORE any Datasat EQ!

Mark took in much data and I expect he will post thoughts here. But the power was just amazing. The balance of the response across the entire theater is really a big surprise. I didn't think it possible.

Hat's off to Mark and the best subwoofer for home theater and a true expert in the field - I now know first hand why his products are the choice for those looking for reference bass! For me, there are his subs and, then, everything else...




Rack VIew




Datasat RS-20i finally in the rack!




Pretty flat to 10 Hz on screen without any Datasat EQ or DIRAC! GOes even lower to boot!




1AM and Mark wrapping it up after a crazy bass demo of 'Art of Flight' and ridiculous levels!
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My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #2 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 08:02 AM
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Awesome.

I'm very jealous
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post #3 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 08:09 AM
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Nice. It's great to see some pics of this setup. 18 speakers including subs is quite the setup. Along with that preamp. Not sure you mentioned what amps you are using though. Having all those experienced people do the calibration must make the room sound outstanding. Very nice indeed.

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post #4 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post
Nice. It's great to see some pics of this setup. 18 speakers including subs is quite the setup. Along with that preamp. Not sure you mentioned what amps you are using though. Having all those experienced people do the calibration must make the room sound outstanding. Very nice indeed.
QSC Studio Reference amps for Rear Heights, Side Heights, rears and sides.

QSC AP-750-2 Amplifiers for LCRs (bridged to over 2000W and a stereo version for the Front Heights.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #5 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 08:47 AM
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So all QSC. Nice. Will you start your own thread in the other section? I would love to see more pics of the room and read about it. I see a Home Theater of the Month in your future .

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post #6 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a build thread in the dedicated theater area. Thanks!

Here Le Petit Trianon V 3.0 (thebland) 7.2 --> 12.5

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #7 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 11:26 AM
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Are all your Submersives amped models, or do you have some Master/Slaves?
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post #8 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bambam View Post
Are all your Submersives amped models, or do you have some Master/Slaves?
4 up front are master / slave BUT amplifier is outboard (all subs passive).

2 in rear are standard F2 in master/slave config.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #9 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
QSC Studio Reference amps for Rear Heights, Side Heights, rears and sides.

QSC AP-750-2 Amplifiers for LCRs (bridged to over 2000W and a stereo version for the Front Heights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post
So all QSC. Nice. Will you start your own thread in the other section? I would love to see more pics of the room and read about it. I see a Home Theater of the Month in your future .
I'm guessing an auto-correct edited the 2nd set of amps in Jeff's post as the AP-750-2's are amps from Quested not QSC, the same manufacturer as the speakers.

Hopefully Jeff will find and post a couple pictures of the 2 F2's stacked in the rear. Quite impressive.

So far as the subwoofer response, it's always nice when practice aligns with the plan/theory. Of course those who think multiple subwoofers dropped in automatically make for a better result are in for a surprise. It took some specific settings to get the highly impressive uniformity observed between all 3 rows of seats. Fortunately we were able to achieve this with nothing more than 7ms delay on the rear subs. Having identical subwoofers made this infinitely more reasonable to dial in. We took many measurements I'll have to go through and group to show what we did and the resulting benefits.

I am very much looking forward to the GTG unveiling of this room!
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post #10 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Hopefully Jeff will find and post a couple pictures of the 2 F2's stacked in the rear. Quite impressive.

I am very much looking forward to the GTG unveiling of this room!
Here's one!! Tower of bass!!

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My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #11 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 05:32 PM
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Nice setup!! Love those drivers
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post #12 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 05:48 PM
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Hell yeah, bland! Nice install.

I forget what did you have before the SM's? Have you been using those bdeaps til now?
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post #13 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Hell yeah, bland! Nice install.

I forget what did you have before the SM's? Have you been using those bdeaps til now?
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Nice setup!! Love those drivers

Thanks! Yep! The big BDEAP beasts met their match!
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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #14 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 06:15 PM
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Nice set up!
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post #15 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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One more

The guys working and Itai (head of iRule) working on my remote on his Mac!

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #16 of 89 Old 08-07-2014, 06:30 PM
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post #17 of 89 Old 08-08-2014, 01:33 AM
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Awesome setup mate congrats. Ahh so that's where Mark has been .
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post #18 of 89 Old 08-08-2014, 12:04 PM
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Two snapshots of the 40+ measurements I saved, and probably 100 more we didn't save in between interesting cases:

First we look at the yellow curve showing all 4 SubMersive HP's spread across the front measured at the main listening position, middle of 3 rows. The response of just the front 4 are already +/-6dB below 75Hz without any EQ. The green curve shows the 2 rear SubMersive F2's driven to the same drive level per cabinet as the front SubMersives. Of particular note is that only 2 subs at the rear deliver MORE level in the 21-33Hz, and 60-82Hz range than 4 SubMersives up front. If these 2 were placed at the front wall, they would be a full 6dB lower in level. So while the rear corner is a terrible place to get 10-14Hz to the listening position, it is very efficient elsewhere while reasonably complimenting the dips in the front subwoofer response.


Now we add to the above curves the rather startling red curve of simply turning both subs on with the same signal applied, just as many do in their rooms. The level reduces over much of the range, and we have a ~20dB hole around 45Hz. Through some experimentation that I'll get into with later posts, we settled on applying a delay of 7ms to the rear stack of F2's which results in the much more impressive cyan (light blue) response. Important to note is that we now see gain over each individual response across most of the frequency range (a maximum of +6dB is possible).


This was not the maximum efficiency for this middle row, but rather the setting that was in our useful range that created the most consistent response for all 3 rows.
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post #19 of 89 Old 08-08-2014, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Two snapshots of the 40+ measurements I saved, and probably 100 more we didn't save in between interesting cases:

First we look at the yellow curve showing all 4 SubMersive HP's spread across the front measured at the main listening position, middle of 3 rows. The response of just the front 4 are already +/-6dB below 75Hz without any EQ. The green curve shows the 2 rear SubMersive F2's driven to the same drive level per cabinet as the front SubMersives. Of particular note is that only 2 subs at the rear deliver MORE level in the 21-33Hz, and 60-82Hz range than 4 SubMersives up front. If these 2 were placed at the front wall, they would be a full 6dB lower in level. So while the rear corner is a terrible place to get 10-14Hz to the listening position, it is very efficient elsewhere while reasonably complimenting the dips in the front subwoofer response.


Now we add to the above curves the rather startling red curve of simply turning both subs on with the same signal applied, just as many do in their rooms. The level reduces over much of the range, and we have a ~20dB hole around 45Hz. Through some experimentation that I'll get into with later posts, we settled on applying a delay of 7ms to the rear stack of F2's which results in the much more impressive cyan (light blue) response. Important to note is that we now see gain over each individual response across most of the frequency range (a maximum of +6dB is possible).


This was not the maximum efficiency for this middle row, but rather the setting that was in our useful range that created the most consistent response for all 3 rows.
Very cool Mark. Because I am a bit of a bass noob -- does the red line show that the front and rear SubM arrays are cancelling each other out? But adding the slight delay removes the null/cancellation? Does adding the delay increase "ringing" issues?

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post #20 of 89 Old 08-08-2014, 03:48 PM
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Very nice setup. I'm sure you are going to enjoy your Man Cave very much. It's good to see the detail that Mark and his employee puts into doing the setup and calibrations. He's definitely on my radar for my next upgrade. Once again, very nice setup and CONGRATULATIONS!!!!
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post #21 of 89 Old 08-08-2014, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Of course those who think multiple subwoofers dropped in automatically make for a better result are in for a surprise.
Amen to that. I've said the same thing innumerable times to someone who felt two (or more) subs were going to be an instant panacea, yet far too often I've been branded a heretic because of it.

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post #22 of 89 Old 08-11-2014, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
Very cool Mark. Because I am a bit of a bass noob -- does the red line show that the front and rear SubM arrays are cancelling each other out? But adding the slight delay removes the null/cancellation? Does adding the delay increase "ringing" issues?
Within +/- 7-9' of distance adjustment from the actual distances you are mostly making phase/summation changes. Where the finer increments become more audible is in the overlap range with the main speakers, especially as the wavelenth/period gets shorter with higher frequencies. In the subwoofer range the frequency response and the ringing in the room is very closely intertwined, so the smoother response most certainly has less ringing. Also remember what I'm showing here was the blending of the two subwoofer locations/channels. I then would apply EQ, run Audyssey, or in this case, use Dirac Live to do the final optimization.

The wavelength at 45Hz is ~25' and the period is ~22ms. The important bit to understand is that when two sine waves combine with the same level and the same phase/time offset, they sum to +6dB of one signal. This means when combining 2 sound sources, the maximum gain possible is +6dB above the higher signal. If the signals are the same level AND offset by 1/2 wavelength or period, they will largely cancel each other creating a deep notch. We did in fact see maximum increase in level of nearly 27dB around 45Hz when we added 10-12ms to the closer F2 pair at the rear of the room. I believe the tape measure showed the rear subs to be around 10' closer to the main seat than the front subs.

Here is a graph showing an incremental increase in delay to the rear pair of F2's. The red line is 0 delay as in my earlier post. It is easiest to separate the graphs around 20Hz. Bottom to top you have increasing delay to the rear subs of 0ms, 3ms, 5ms, 7ms, 8ms, 10ms, 12ms:


From this, I defined a range of 7-12ms all to be a preferred/workable range of responses, dependent on what we found at the other seats/rows. Next is the tedious comparison of responses at other rows with differing delays...

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post #23 of 89 Old 08-11-2014, 02:00 PM
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Mark,

Did you "gain-match" all these subs, or are the rear subs set lower due to their closer proximity to the LP?

Is there any EQ applied to these graphs, or is this the native response of the subs/room? (If there is no EQ applied, your final result is one of the best un-EQ'd in-room results I've ever seen. I can only imagine what Dirac can do on top of that. )

If EQ is applied, is it a "global" EQ or are some subs EQ'd individually?

If you gain-matched them, and there is some individual EQ applied, did you change the trim settings after EQ to compensate for the EQ?

Thanks for posting this!

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post #24 of 89 Old 08-11-2014, 02:36 PM
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Mark,

Did you "gain-match" all these subs, or are the rear subs set lower due to their closer proximity to the LP?
Each of the 3 amplifier channels is delivering the same output to its pair of SubMersive enclosures. In this case the rear F2's have the amp in the box, while the front pairs have the amplifier in the single 2RU case in the equipment rack. Remembering the "+" variants of the SubMersive function similar to a single, 4 driver subwoofer, it is probably more clear to envision the setup as 2 large subs left & right up front with one tall one at the rear right corner. With the F2 & HP styles having identical acoustic performance and same amplification, setting them all to the same level means they all produce the same acoustic power into the room. In my first post you can see where I noted that at some important frequency ranges, only 2 units at the rear of the room are MORE efficient than 4 units getting the same signal at the front wall. I'm sure many skimmed past this detail or its significance:


Quote:
Is there any EQ applied to these graphs, or is this the native response of the subs/room? (If there is no EQ applied, your final result is one of the best un-EQ'd in-room results I've ever seen. I can only imagine what Dirac can do on top of that. )
No EQ. Plug and go, measured set to program 1, 19Hz anechoic response. These did measure very well, although Audioguy's last and current room still have the smoothest raw starting point I've measured.

Quote:
If EQ is applied, is it a "global" EQ or are some subs EQ'd individually?

If you gain-matched them, and there is some individual EQ applied, did you change the trim settings after EQ to compensate for the EQ?

Thanks for posting this!

Craig
The purpose of this visit was to insure everything in the system was operating, placed, and aimed in isolation. The RS20i was not even plugged in or connected. This way we go in knowing anything we see is due to setup. With all that work it would have been a let-down not to hear it and give Jeff a teaser of what's to come, so I threw my Onkyo 5508 in the car and we quickly connected the LCR & subwoofers for a little satisfaction with everything wrapped up. There was already a QSC DSP-30 on hand I used to blend the subwoofers.

This allowed me to test the delays and set a base line for which Dirac Live has to exceed. I will be working with Carl to see about programming in the delay I determined for the second sub channel driving the rear F2's. For quick listening fun I did later apply a few filters to the input/block of subs to bring up the 25-30Hz range and knock down the peaks in the upper 40s & 60s. I'll post that later, but we'll be using Dirac for all of the frequency shaping so that has little to do with the efforts of the day or what we'll have in the end.

What I found the most interesting was what we were able to achieve by comparing the "preferred/workable" range of responses in the other 3 rows. I know many have 2 rows, but I think many don't realize just how difficult it can be to get acceptable response and coverage from speakers and subwoofers across 3 rows of seating. I'll later post some of the further comparison of what helped us settle on 7ms of delay for the rear subs, but if anyone's ever measured across 3 rows of seating, this is an exceptional response with no EQ where we have the middle seats of all 3 rows at +/-3.6dB below 65Hz. These are high resolution measurements of only the subwoofers using my TEF25 with no smoothing with magenta/purple showing the back row, green the middle row, and yellow the front row:

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post #25 of 89 Old 08-11-2014, 03:32 PM
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Since I realized the front vs. rear location benefit was not very clear in the previous graphs I found a measurement I saved of 2 SubMersives at the front middle of the room vs the 2 at the rear right corner driven to the same level. While the rear right corner is obviously an in-efficient location to deliver the deepest frequencies, it is quite efficient at delivering the rest of the range. If you look at the cursors you will see nearly a 10dB advantage in the critical 20-35Hz range.

The yellow curve is the pair front pair, the green curve is the rear pair, driven to the same level:

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post #26 of 89 Old 08-11-2014, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
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These did measure very well, although Audioguy's last and current room still have the smoothest raw starting point I've measured.
Here was the response in my last room when initially setup by Mark:



In my current room, these are the raw measurements (eerily similar to my last room).



The black line is the uncorrected response, no smoothing, and all 4 subs running off of a single output on my Integra, so no delay of the rear subs. The primary improvement of adding the delay (yellow line) is above the crossover point to the center/mains but in so doing, gave up some (uncorrected) response below 20hz.

To get this output, I had to have some serious therapy to work through my audio OCD. For the first time in all of my years in audio, the room is not perfectly symmetrical with respect to equipment placement because my two rear subs are not symmetrical to the MLP (they were in my last room but door placement made it not possible in this room). Prior to having Mark in my home 5 years ago, I had no clue how to do any of this. He is the main audio setup guru.

When you start off with incredibly well designed subs, placed in the room with the knowledge gained from the guy who designed the subs and then use the integration "tricks" passed on by the guy who designed the subs, this is what you get after room correction (No smoothing - MLP);



I only have one row of seating so, in one sense, we are in many ways, comparing Apples and Submarines!! If I had to get this kind of response in three rows (or even two), I would probably (just call Mark!).

Jeff: With 6 SubMersives in that room, optimized by Mark and then played through the Datasat, you should be in audio heaven.

I am very much looking forward to your impressions.

If I recall, the Datasat has the ability to have more than one set of Dirac filters stored. So when it is just you and your wife, you can correct for the sweet spot but when you have guests, you can use another set of filters. THAT should be very nice.

I am very excited for you. Should be amazing.

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post #27 of 89 Old 08-11-2014, 09:04 PM
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I hope to have him set-up our home theater in early 2015. Spoke with him on the phone today, very nice guy, very passionate.

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post #28 of 89 Old 08-12-2014, 10:31 AM
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Here is another good visualization normalized to the middle row/main seat. First the graph from above of the actual response at each row.



And now the same data normalized to the main seat which is the flat green line:


I should note the results were not just dumb luck. 6 years ago (2008) Jeff & I were talking about adding a monster sub to augment the original BDeap subwoofers we installed 11 years ago now. These were tremendously efficient above 28Hz, and we were able to push the extension into the 10Hz range using the DSP-30 I had him add to the system. My idea was to use the rear right corner for a subwoofer which would have been similar to the custom unit I built for a Keith Yates project:


Of course looking at the measurements of the rear F2's, you see that rear corner is 10-15dB less efficient below 15Hz, which is whole point of a subwoofer like this. In fact here are the measurements I took in Feb of 2008 sliding a SubMersive from the back corner, to right mid wall, front right & left (in front of stage). Even with the subs out in front of the screen/stage it was clear the deepest frequencies have to come from the front wall, while the rear corner is very efficient and fairly smooth to drive above 20Hz:

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post #29 of 89 Old 08-12-2014, 11:13 AM
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wow, I didn't know that flat of a response was even possible.
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post #30 of 89 Old 08-12-2014, 11:23 AM
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I sure don't need one of these (the subs, not Mark) but if one were to show up in my theater, I would not discard it.

I guess I could get close with a couple of stacked F2's but this has a very ominous feel to it. Did not see this on the available product section on Mark's forum !!!

Lust!! Lust !! Lust !!!

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