Dayton Sub: 1000 or 1200 - AVS Forum

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Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

landmarke
08:04 AM Liked: 1
post #1 of 23
08-07-2014 | Posts: 22
Joined: Aug 2014
Im doing a small build in my basement, and need to decide between the 10" or 12" sub. I'm leaning towards the smaller 1000. but want to make sure its enough for my situation.

Room size is 14.5' wide, and technically the room is 50ft long, although the seating will be much closer. Wired for 5.1.

Factors are my wife, she doesn't want to look at a subwoofer at all, doesn't think we need it. So smaller, and out of the way helps a lot.


60-65" wall mount tv
(3) Boston Acoustic P442 LCR speakers wall mounted
Denon AVR X1000


Alan P's Avatar Alan P
10:15 AM Liked: 425
post #2 of 23
08-07-2014 | Posts: 2,889
Joined: Jan 2003
Assuming 8' ceilings, that space is 5800 cu. ft. - a LARGE space by any definition. Neither of those subs are going to do much of anything in that space.

In that large of a space, you're going to need at the very least a capable 15" ported sub, multiples would be better of course.

Since you are still "under construction", have you considered in-wall subs??

What are your expectations from a sub? What are your listening habits (movies vs. music)?
Alan P's Avatar Alan P
10:18 AM Liked: 425
post #3 of 23
08-07-2014 | Posts: 2,889
Joined: Jan 2003
Just looked up your speakers - they are -3db at 80hz. You're going to need a very capable sub(s) since you will need to crossover at probably 100hz or higher.
crazyrob425's Avatar crazyrob425
01:57 PM Liked: 202
post #4 of 23
08-07-2014 | Posts: 6,494
Joined: Dec 2009
That is a large room to leave to one cheapo budget subwoofer.

The room looks like it will be a dedicated theater. If you want a serious theater room you will need a subwoofer.

What is your budget for subwoofers?

Smaller subwoofers won't work for you with your extremely large room
dsrussell's Avatar dsrussell
04:17 PM Liked: 497
post #5 of 23
08-07-2014 | Posts: 1,740
Joined: Nov 2009
For a subwoofer, your space is considered "extreme" (anything over 5,000 cu. ft.). So guess what? It would take the likes of a JTR Orbit Shifter to fill that volume. Once you show your wife that bad puppy, she will be much more forgiving when you tell her you are going to get two FV15HPs instead .
Ryanweather
09:01 PM Liked: 1
post #6 of 23
09-10-2014 | Posts: 4
Joined: Aug 2014
I have about 1400 cubic feet and one dayton sub-1200 works great, but I'm thinking of adding another just for fun since they're so cheap and having two up front just looks cool. BTW, all this talk about how many hz will the subwoofer play and I'm not sure if using youtube videos are an accurate way to measure, but if I turn my receiver up this thing can get down to 15hz. At 25 and my walls start badly shaking. At 20 it's like an earthquake. 15 you can hear the driver moving and feel some air but that's about it.
BrickTop's Avatar BrickTop
09:22 PM Liked: 22
post #7 of 23
09-10-2014 | Posts: 582
Joined: Sep 2002
The Dayton 1200 is a steal for the price. It also happens to be very unobtrusive for a 12". I'd go for two to get better room response. To do otherwise would simply be financially irresponsible.
UGAd13's Avatar UGAd13
06:26 AM Liked: 63
post #8 of 23
09-11-2014 | Posts: 562
Joined: Apr 2010
Look for online coupon codes and wait for a sale. I picked up the Sub-1200 for around $120 shipped from PE. Definitely get two regardless of which ones you go for - you won't regret it.
charmerci's Avatar charmerci
06:35 AM Liked: 96
post #9 of 23
09-11-2014 | Posts: 673
Joined: Apr 2012
Buy a couple of nice big ones before you finish the room. Place them where they sound the best, then build a bench/shelf box like structure over them.
eljaycanuck's Avatar eljaycanuck
07:50 AM Liked: 585
post #10 of 23
09-11-2014 | Posts: 5,546
Joined: Oct 2007
Huge spaces need large, powerful subs. Relationships need compromises. If Daytons are the absolute largest you can go, compromise on dual SUB-1200s.

Personally, I wouldn't go any less than a pair of:
- SVS PB-1000s ($499/ea., shipped - if you buy one now and one later - or duals for $950, shipped); or
- Premier Acoustic PA-150s (currently selling for $499, shipped, on Amazon.com).
noway1's Avatar noway1
08:08 AM Liked: 14
post #11 of 23
09-11-2014 | Posts: 75
Joined: Sep 2007
"Honey, they are not subs. They are powered end tables. Now go shopping and find some lamps for them while I have a beer and work on my hobby!"
Billy Boden's Avatar Billy Boden
11:55 AM Liked: 35
post #12 of 23
09-11-2014 | Posts: 202
Joined: Sep 2014
If those are the only choices go with the 12.
Billy Boden's Avatar Billy Boden
11:57 AM Liked: 35
post #13 of 23
09-11-2014 | Posts: 202
Joined: Sep 2014
I forgot that since I had to start over (because of a hacked email account) my post count is reset... Grrrrr

I'll post my real suggestion once i post a few more times.
Billy Boden's Avatar Billy Boden
12:10 PM Liked: 35
post #14 of 23
09-11-2014 | Posts: 202
Joined: Sep 2014
But... since you are building stuff, I would get a http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...4-ohm--295-468 with a http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...ifier--300-807 and build a 2.88 ft.³ sealed box for it and hide the box in the wall.
Prime316's Avatar Prime316
08:08 PM Liked: 141
post #15 of 23
09-11-2014 | Posts: 1,104
Joined: May 2012
If I were putting together a dedicate theater room that size, I would not skimp on the subs. You need two good, powerful 15" subs at least.
orion2001's Avatar orion2001
01:43 AM Liked: 273
post #16 of 23
09-13-2014 | Posts: 706
Joined: Jun 2008
Just wanted to chip in with my personal experience. My living room is >5000 cu ft and I started off with a Dayton sub-1200. I think it is a fantastic sub for the price. It actually provided a decent amount of bass in my living room. A lot depends on how loud you tend to view movies. The Dayton would likely have issues at reference levels in that large a space, but for someone who didn't have much of a sub before (A logitech z-5500 system), the Dayton performed admirably.

A week back, I picked up the SVS NSD-PB12 for $500 and it is absolutely fantastic in my living room! I know everyone here will tell you that you need 15 inch subs and a pair of them at that, but a decent single sub can do an adequate job in your setup. Sure, double subs would be nicer and lead to smoother bass response, but it sounds like you are on a budget and 2 subs is unlikely to be entertained.

If you are getting a single sub though, you need to be flexible with sub location, and you need to put in the time and effort to take measurements with REW (or manually using Excel and an SPL meter - my phone mic worked fine) to ensure that you find an optimal location for your sub. If you are lucky, the corner you have allocated for the sub will end up working well. But you will be amazed at how minor changes in position can have HUGE impacts in terms of the bass response curves at your seating position. Moreover, since you will have multiple seating positions, you will likely have nulls at specific locations so you'll just have to optimize for a sweetspot, or optimize by taking an average measurement across seating positions.

In my case, one of the room corners worked fairly well. This is the response I measured with a single SVS sub at the corner in my 5000+ cu ft living room with some minor EQuing on my HTPC with Equalizer APO:



Seating position averaged response:


2-3 subs would make for a much smoother bass response across the entire room but you still need to put in a lot of work to optimize and tweak all the subs locations, phase settings, delays and gain levels to optimize the overall response.

If you do not take the time to find a good location though, you could end up with some horrible sub response resulting in a very underwhelming experience (2nd, 3rd and 4th plot...this is for my Dayton sub-1200)
:

bgtighe23
01:15 PM Liked: 2
post #17 of 23
09-13-2014 | Posts: 66
Joined: Sep 2014
I would suggest a 5.2 receiver. Try looking at Pioneer vsk series. Try to stay away from Onkyo, as they are experiencing some HDMI board issues. Denons 5.2 system is entry level, the denon avr-s500bt is it. But budget/decent sound/ and a .2 system is nice. I would then suggest placing two Dayton audio SUB 1200s on each side of the room.

Another option is the SVS - PB100. $499 sub with great warranty and free trial. It would fill the room with good quality bass.
Ryanweather
09:27 PM Liked: 1
post #18 of 23
09-13-2014 | Posts: 4
Joined: Aug 2014
orion2001, do you notice that big of a difference between the two subs (dayton and svs) : 73db at 20hz compared to dayton 35db at 20hz?
orion2001's Avatar orion2001
11:38 PM Liked: 273
post #19 of 23
09-13-2014 | Posts: 706
Joined: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryanweather View Post
orion2001, do you notice that big of a difference between the two subs (dayton and svs) : 73db at 20hz compared to dayton 35db at 20hz?
Ryan... the difference is HUGE!! And I should be clear, that I was one of those people skeptical about the *need* for $500+ subwoofers in a HT setup. The Dayton is an excellent sub and I have no complaints with it for the ridiculously low price it can be bought for. I never heard any port noise/chuffing and the bass felt quite clean. It is fairly powerful as well. The primary deficiency of course is that it doesn't have a very flat response and doesn't dig too deep.

But I have to say that having useful bass output to around 20Hz makes a very very big difference when watching movies (less so with regular music imho). That low frequency stuff really shakes the room and hits you in the chest. It adds a very very big sense of immersion in movies where the audio is done right. A good example is Gravity, which I think is absolutely stunning in terms of sound engineering/mastering. I've watched several parts of the movies multiple times on my setup as a way to test audio/video changes. With the Dayton, it was good, but when I hooked up the SVS, it just added another dimension in a lot of the heart in mouth scenes because of the low frequency bass content in the background that adds to that sense of tension. I had a big grin on my face when watching several scenes and at this point, I think it is going to be hard to make a case for going to the movies

If I had to do it again, I probably would have just saved up or waited for a good deal on a good sub (like I eventually did with getting the PB12-NSD for $499) rather than spend on the Dayton. For those on a budget, and who are confident that they will never be able to justify spending $500+ on a good sub, then the Dayton is a great budget option. But they will be missing out on quite a bit with the cheaper sub. Unfortunately, without experiencing a quality sub in an HT setup, it is hard to realize what you are missing. I now completely understand what a lot of folks here mean when they say to prioritize your budget for the sub over the speakers.

In my case, I have 3 sets of Infinity Primus P163s for the fronts and they are fantastic for budget speakers. I'm sure that more expensive speakers would be even nicer, but I highly doubt I would see the same improvement in my overall HT experience with 4X more expensive speakers, as I have seen with a 4X more expensive sub.

Hope my perspective helps.
Shreds's Avatar Shreds
11:50 PM Liked: 24
post #20 of 23
09-13-2014 | Posts: 131
Joined: May 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime316 View Post
If I were putting together a dedicate theater room that size, I would not skimp on the subs. You need two good, powerful 15" subs at least.

I agree with this guy. At least one 18". The 10" is a waste of time for a room that size... unless you are like, using it for a pillow or something.
maheeinfy's Avatar maheeinfy
05:15 PM Liked: 10
post #21 of 23
11-03-2014 | Posts: 23
Joined: Mar 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Ryan... the difference is HUGE!! And I should be clear, that I was one of those people skeptical about the *need* for $500+ subwoofers in a HT setup. The Dayton is an excellent sub and I have no complaints with it for the ridiculously low price it can be bought for. I never heard any port noise/chuffing and the bass felt quite clean. It is fairly powerful as well. The primary deficiency of course is that it doesn't have a very flat response and doesn't dig too deep.

But I have to say that having useful bass output to around 20Hz makes a very very big difference when watching movies (less so with regular music imho). That low frequency stuff really shakes the room and hits you in the chest. It adds a very very big sense of immersion in movies where the audio is done right. A good example is Gravity, which I think is absolutely stunning in terms of sound engineering/mastering. I've watched several parts of the movies multiple times on my setup as a way to test audio/video changes. With the Dayton, it was good, but when I hooked up the SVS, it just added another dimension in a lot of the heart in mouth scenes because of the low frequency bass content in the background that adds to that sense of tension. I had a big grin on my face when watching several scenes and at this point, I think it is going to be hard to make a case for going to the movies

If I had to do it again, I probably would have just saved up or waited for a good deal on a good sub (like I eventually did with getting the PB12-NSD for $499) rather than spend on the Dayton. For those on a budget, and who are confident that they will never be able to justify spending $500+ on a good sub, then the Dayton is a great budget option. But they will be missing out on quite a bit with the cheaper sub. Unfortunately, without experiencing a quality sub in an HT setup, it is hard to realize what you are missing. I now completely understand what a lot of folks here mean when they say to prioritize your budget for the sub over the speakers.

In my case, I have 3 sets of Infinity Primus P163s for the fronts and they are fantastic for budget speakers. I'm sure that more expensive speakers would be even nicer, but I highly doubt I would see the same improvement in my overall HT experience with 4X more expensive speakers, as I have seen with a 4X more expensive sub.

Hope my perspective helps.
Thanks. It definitely helps me. Can you help me how to setup subs with just an excel and phone's mic? I plan to eventually do REW with a spl meter but this should do for now. Oh btw, i've got dual Sub 1200s
Alan P's Avatar Alan P
05:23 PM Liked: 425
post #22 of 23
11-03-2014 | Posts: 2,889
Joined: Jan 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by maheeinfy View Post
Thanks. It definitely helps me. Can you help me how to setup subs with just an excel and phone's mic? I plan to eventually do REW with a spl meter but this should do for now. Oh btw, i've got dual Sub 1200s
Don't waste your time. The SPL apps just don't have good enough resolution in the lower octaves to be worthwhile.
orion2001's Avatar orion2001
08:37 AM Liked: 273
post #23 of 23
11-04-2014 | Posts: 706
Joined: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Don't waste your time. The SPL apps just don't have good enough resolution in the lower octaves to be worthwhile.
Alan, that was not my experience when testing out my phone as an SPL meter app. I do agree with regards to RTA style phone apps that do an FFT to show the overall spectrum response for white noise being played back on the system. Those apps have terrible resolution and are useless for looking at sub response.

However, using a test tone generator (REW) or test tones from youtube, and a phone SPL meter, I was able to create excel plots for different listening positions such as the one below (this was for my Sub-1200):



In all cases, the measured responses matched with what my ears heard at the different listening positions. Subsequently, I was able to use REW with my internal mic on my laptop (after disabling all post processing and noise cancellation/filtering for the mic in the driver settings) and got RTA mode as well as frequency sweeps working and giving me surprisingly consistent readings that matched with my ears and phone readings while making measurements a lot easier. I do understand that the absolute SPL level is certainly off, and that there may be some general roll-off across the 20-100Hz region of interest, but even the uncalibrated mics don't have any sharp resonances in their response in this region, and with some common sense checks (making sure my ears heard what the mic was measuring, and that the overall sub-woofer response I measured matched well with published response) I was able to use these mics to dial in my sub quite nicely. It was certainly extremely beneficial in comparison to simply doing a sub crawl and trying to gauge things with my ears.

Here is the REW measurement of my PB12-NSD using laptop mic.



As you can see, the measured response matches very well with the expected profile of the response curve for the sub. Some of the room resonances are also very obvious. I would like to mention, that this approach is risky as your mic may behave strangely, and hence the recommendation of commonsense checks. I tried using an external logitech webcam mic and that didn't work as I believe it had undefeatable signal processing at the low end for noise cancellation. But that failed the commonsense checks, and so I didn't use it to make measurements.

I'd still recommend a calibrated mic, but in the mean time, there isn't any harm in trying this approach. I know from personal experience that I gained a LOT from doing all of the above and was able to achieve a much more pleasing response at my MLP, which would have been impossible to do without taking measurements. In my 5000+ cu ft living room, my sub would also have been extremely underwhelming in any of the other locations except for the corner loaded option (as shown in my first set of plots). Hence why I feel it is so important to stress to people that if they are investing a lot of money on their subs, they owe it to themselves to take measurements and try different locations for their subs. From my measurements, it is quite clear to me that even if I spent $1000 on a sub, I would be very underwhelmed with it in any of the other 3 locations in my living room.
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